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Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

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After looking into this Fate idea for a bit and looking back into Lord's WoG on what Crafter Servant class is like, I made one funny realization. Lord accidentally(?) gave Holy Grail War inbuilt "Pay to Win" mechanic!

Crafter class is stronger the more resources and Mana its Master has, with peak being capable of creating items rivalling in power most Noble Phantasms even without any of Joe's other perks (except of Fay Master Craftsman, which seems to be inbuilt in Servant's legend, as without it Crafter would not have NP). So in theory, some unskilled but very wealthy Magus can win the war by summoning Crafter and simply throwing money and Mana at it until whatever Crafter made reaches critical mass with which they can roll over most of other Servants. Plus, whatever Crafter made will be left behind, which just adds to the profit from war. It's less spending money to win the war and more investing into it to get a bunch of powerful magical items and maybe a wish as a bonus.

"Holy Grail War isn't about the wish, it's about profits we made along the way" - Crafter and their Master, probably.


Anyway, back to BCF, it seems that next chapter will be a bit more than just check up on Gully and the Empire:
The Gully Interlude is going to be a lot more complicated than I initially thought. I knew some character conflicts were going to come to a head, but a lot of elements are lining up for the next chapter. I know a lot of people were hoping for some major confrontation or cape attack for the charity event, but the reality is going to be more of a series of social conflicts playing out between the various people in attendance, leading into the actual fight between the Empire and the Teeth.
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We might be looking at something similar to that one Uppercrust's interlude where he had a social confrontation with Piggot. If that is the case, then I'm very excited.
 
AmberSlime said:
Servant!Apeiron: Okay, so you want me to make you at least one extraordinarily powerful magical tool?
Luvia: Yes.
Servant!Apeiron: That's all you want me to do?
Luvia: Indeed.
Servant!Apeiron: So you don't want me to do anything regarding... that? *Gestures vaguely in the direction of a bunch of snobby mad scientist-wizards, legendary figures of dubious sanity and questionable morality, and Shirou Kotomine*
Luvia: Well, if I happen to be the last one standing, that'll be grand, but no, I just want you to focus on pumping out magical super-stuff for me and my family.
Servant!Apeiron: *side-eyes whatever moral depravity the mages and servants just got up to today* ...I have moral objections?
Luvia: That's nice, now get in the workshop.
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He isn't a Doormat anymore. But he does have a noticeable soft spot for women, I guess it's family trauma.

His Dad is mentioned to have not actively bullied him, but being much of a doormat himself.

I wish for just a single Fate one shot like we had at GVvTW, made by Lord.

Perhaps after the main story and the other side story, in say about one to two decades of time.
 
___ said:
He isn't a Doormat anymore. But he does have a noticeable soft spot for women, I guess it's family trauma.
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Well, I mean... wouldn't Servant!Apeiron be a separate entity from our Apeiron, and thus not have the Mental Fortress Perk? I mean, if our Apeiron is in Earth-Bet then Servant!Apeiron can't be our Apeiron. I don't think there have been any instances in the Fate world of the Servant-version of somebody and that same person existing at the same time.
 
AmberSlime said:
Well, I mean... wouldn't Servant!Apeiron be a separate entity from our Apeiron, and thus not have the Mental Fortress Perk? I mean, if our Apeiron is in Earth-Bet then Servant!Apeiron can't be our Apeiron. I don't think there have been any instances in the Fate world of the Servant-version of somebody and that same person existing at the same time.
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EMIYA kinda? I mean he is specifically Shirou. A different timelines Shirou but he is Shirou. I also think that they are supposed to be completely identical until the grail war starts. So there doesn't really seem to be anything stopping a servant existing at the same time as a living counter part to them, they just generally diverge when that servant is summoned because the servant self never experienced meeting themselves.
 
The Servants are generally also weaker than their real counterparts (not ironclad). In order to get a Class with absolute Mental Protections, there'd have to be some legend out there of Apeiron having Master and Thinker immunity. This might not be farfetched since the Protectorate leaking documents like a sieve about Apeiron's capabilities seems to be the norm, and Thinkers are sure to be butthurt enough over it to try to make sure everyone knows that Apeiron's just built differently.
 
Crake said:
The Servants are generally also weaker than their real counterparts (not ironclad). In order to get a Class with absolute Mental Protections, there'd have to be some legend out there of Apeiron having Master and Thinker immunity. This might not be farfetched since the Protectorate leaking documents like a sieve about Apeiron's capabilities seems to be the norm, and Thinkers are sure to be butthurt enough over it to try to make sure everyone knows that Apeiron's just built differently.
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It's been a while so maybe I'm remembering wrong, but wasn't Apeiron's Servant legend based on the unknown/unnamed craftsmen of the world or something? The people who may have created great works but never really got the credit or prominence; background characters to the hero's legend.

I could see a mythos like that offering some degree of information defense. Certainly not absolute, and probably more geared toward protecting his identity and predicting what he may do or make, rather than protecting his mind, but maybe broad enough to help in other ways. Plus being a sort of pseudo-gesalt could add another layer, having many identities and mindsets to draw from.

That said, the benefit of being a craftsmen is being able to make what you lack; if he doesn't have a needed mental defense, then just make something that can give it. Doormat behavior? Ring of Charisma/Confidence/Courage, etc.
 
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There is WoG about how Apeiron Servant would be weaker than the original and restricted by class(So basicly like any other Servant):
It's generally accepted that Servants are weaker than the original heroes. You have exceptions, but generally they have to work under the limits of what the grail system can support. Joe summoned as a servant would be interesting since you'd basically have to cram all of his bullshit into the context of a single class. Odds are a lot of his abilities would go underrepresented or be completely inaccessible. There's also the amusing idea of Joe being summoned as different classes depending on what interpretation you take. You'd probably be looking at caster or maybe archer or rider, but a Tetra fused Berserker Joe summoned based on his fight with Lung is a particularly amusing image.
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But, just to be clear, it is not Apeiron that is summoned, it is Crafter, which is... well look how Joe explained it:
Chapter 55 said:
And people remembered. They didn't know the smith's name, or the manner in which a great shield was forged. It may not even have been great until someone of worth took it up for a great task, but with the item's legend came the legend of the one who made it.

That was what flowed into me now. That was my place in the Throne of Heroes. Not through a single great deed, but a thousand tiny acts, works of ingenuity and progress, or just works that allowed the world to keep moving. Through the sum of human history, the saga of the craftsman was worthy of its place amongst the heroes.

But it was a turbulent existence. There was no single legend to bind it together. Instead of having my own story, bits and pieces from a thousand other heroes were cobbled together into a barely functional whole. The crafter was necessary, but not defined. He stood as a background character in the tales of other heroes, a support character, someone who facilitated the tale, rather than directed it.

Without the unity of cause and action there would be no cohesion. The entire assembly would collapse across a thousand stories and cultures. But that didn't happen. Beyond the chaos there was a single purpose. We made things. I made things. It was enough.

Enough to be called forth from the Throne of Heroes. Enough to manifest into a stable saint graph, granting me a spiritual core. Enough to exist as a Heroic Spirit.

Class name Crafter. Really, I was barely more than a wraith. A scattered legend held loosely around whatever aspects of my own powers had connected with this particular source. As a Heroic Spirit I was among the weakest existences possible, but that didn't change the fact that I was a Heroic Spirit. I had been summoned from the Throne and I was a hero.
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Tl;Dr: Gestalt wraith of unnamed makers all throughout human history. Amongst the weakest Heroic Spirits - the manifestation of humanity's will to create.

Kinda weird having something that closer to concept then a person as Heroic Spirit. Think about it, that Crafter thing probably involved in every story there is. Who constructed Babylon? Crafter. Who repaired Theseus ship? Crafter. Who made food for knights of Camelot? Crafter. If something made and people don't remember the name of one who made it, then it becomes part of Crafter. Thousands of actions of history behind one mythical figure. Insane.
 
Hmmm... So Crafter is based around the unnamed crafters throughout all of mythology.

If Crafter is also getting abilities based on the 'legends of Aperion', then does that also mean...

The world of Fate will have to deal with the consequences of the 'Three day old technology' meme?
 
A Crafter with limited resources is no threat at all in comparison to normal Heroic Servants.

A Crafter with functionally limitless resources is an existential threat to everyone.
 
Crake said:
A Crafter with functionally limitless resources is an existential threat to everyone.
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Reminded me of this WoG:
Since Joe's current level basically has his at Fate end boss levels, it's probably best to look at his servant abilities in isolation. Joe as a crafter would actually do better summoned by Chaldea than in a typical Grail War. He'd have access to more resources and a steady supply of mana, so he could actually make full use of his skill and Noble Phantasm. If you take the limits off the Mystic Forge it's actually seriously powerful, basically being able to match Enkidu's Age of Babylon. The problem is any master would run out of materials and mana for Joe to use before he could muster the kind of offense that Enkidu is capable of, but with the resources of Chaldea that changes substantially, and that's without getting into the potential of Countercraft.
The usefulness of Joe as a servant would depend on if the Mystic Forge could still access Chaldea's resources while he was deployed. I'd say that would probably be the case, so he'd be a very useful support servant for them to deploy. Relationship with Da Vinci would probably be based on personality rather than abilities, but I can see them getting along. Da Vinci would probably be interested in Joe both his roles as the composite of all unnamed craftsmen throughout history and as a modern day engineering student. The Mystic Forge would also mean that Da Vinci would have access to all of Chaldea's resources on any mission where Joe was also deployed, which would definitely be a bonus.
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I like the last sentence. Crafter - Da Vinci's favourite resource dispenser.
 
Archer Gil: *says as Archer Gil says*

Crafter: .....Remind me, Archer. Do you recall the people who crafted all "your" "originals"?

Archer Gil: Why would I-?

Crafter: Gooooood *golden blacksmith hammer appears in his hand* because we came for our paycheck. And, oh boy, are you late on your monthly fees.
 
Grey Shadow said:
With the curse on Joe's identity. How long before Saint/Teacher try to put things together using the information Dragon has available?
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I wonder how hard it would be to realize that there is an effect on Aperion's identity but not actually get the identity. As in, you try to find out, the curse keeps stopping you and eventually you realize that there is something stopping you from finding out.
 
Iridesce said:
I wonder how hard it would be to realize that there is an effect on Aperion's identity but not actually get the identity.
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And who's going to tie the bell on the cat? Villain groups won't dare. Government groups will want to try, but they know full well that if Apeiron gets wind of it, they are toast. If someone did find out about the effect, will they even want to try and spread the knowledge?
 
Brainstorm813 said:
And who's going to tie the bell on the cat? Villain groups won't dare. Government groups will want to try, but they know full well that if Apeiron gets wind of it, they are toast. If someone did find out about the effect, will they even want to try and spread the knowledge?
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The wonderful Coil of course! Or perhaps the even more extreme Cauldron! Both of these groups/people are not going to be stopped by the power and danger that Apeiron has shown. Because in their eyes they are better than that.
 
Brainstorm813 said:
Cauldron is not that incompetent. They will recognize that such a thing may cause unnecessary panic and will certainly keep it to themselves. They don't trust anybody but themselves, you know?
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Well yeah. Cauldron is probably not going to try to out Joe. The question is if they would try to get his identity and fail repeatedly thus realizing that Joe did something. Same with Coil trying to get Joe's identity and failing, ECT.
 
Iridesce said:
Well yeah. Cauldron is probably not going to try to out Joe. The question is if they would try to get his identity and fail repeatedly thus realizing that Joe did something. Same with Coil trying to get Joe's identity and failing, ECT.
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Coil already has Joe's identity. In his interlude he referenced the number of dropped timelines in which he studied Joe including when he sent his mercs at him while in his civies. All of which resulted in the same reaction of Joe fleeing with his tail between his legs which helped reinforce his believed supremacy over Apeiron and TT's control over him.
 
Iridesce said:
Cauldron is probably not going to try to out Joe.
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Here, WoG:
Lord Roustabout once said:
I don't believe that Contessa can use her power to fish for information. She can do things like "Path to learning Apeiron's identity", but can't just extract his identity from the steps of a potential path. The lesser version of the curse would make learning his identity more difficult, adding many more steps to the process and running her into as many blind spots as possible. For the greater version of the curse, that depends on whether her power can see it coming. Any path that tries to share or use Joe's identity would have her either working constantly to avoid the efforts of the curse, or being squashed by something she couldn't see coming. Either way, she's not actually going to be able to use Joe's ability against him and would probably have to start clarifying her paths to avoid any action that would trigger the curse.

Something like this is bound to happen as Cauldron is one of the organizations that would try to learn Joe's identity without fear of what repercussions he'd unleash. General efforts aren't likely to be successful, so that task would come down to either Contessa or the Number Man, depending on how busy each of them are at the time. It's basically a question of who the first person to get hit with the curse will be, whether they can survive it, and then the very awkward Cauldron meeting where they have to explain that they know Apeiron's identity, but can't share it or take any actions based on
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Flufferton said:
Coil already has Joe's identity.
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He doesn't:
Lisa's assessment that is confirmed by multiple WoGs and Coil's interlude said:
"He knows your abbreviated first name, your relative age, and the fact that you were in college."

"And he couldn't figure it out from there?" I asked.

"He could, but he hasn't." She said, "It wasn't a priority before Bakuda's bombing spree and after that he was tied up trying to counter the ABB. After THAT there were concerns that you'd be monitoring for people trying to investigate your identity, like accessing college records."

"His power could have covered that, but it's limited in how he can use it. He couldn't spare it for the length of time he'd need to track down your identity." She continued. "Releasing information like that is one of his contingencies. He's confident he can find it if he needs it, but he's not going there unless he's pressed into a corner."

So, my civilian identity was part of his failsafes, though probably not one that could be released instantly.

"And you're sure he doesn't know?" I asked.

She gave a resolute nod. "I'm sure. Based on how he treats matters related to you, he's not operating with that information. Particularly after Survey showed off what she could do, he doesn't want to risk it being traced back to him."

"I see." I mused. "That's a shame."
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Graviator said:
He did that without finding Joe's identity by having the mercs tail Lisa to a meeting.
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He also had them atk when Joe had times he was to be at the undersiders base or any such place in civvies before March got going. However, he didn't get Joe's id from it because he only has 2 timelines and both progress through time at the same rate so he still had limited windows to attempt things. Those 2 successes would be when dropping off their equipment he had a sniper headshot him which got blocked by the pouch alchemy shield then blew his head up but Joe didn't carry any id so they didn't get it and the other is the sleeping gas one when meeting just Lisa but Garment stopped the mercs getting him.
 
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