Blood, Sweat, and Tears (WH40k Design Bureau)

I'm not super-attached to the chem cannons. If someone wants to make a case for something else, I'm listening.
I'd really like to make a case for replacing them with a warp drive design, we're still using the merchant warp drives we started out with, which are noted to be slow and every time we've seen our ships enter a system they've been scattered around and need to reform formations. Neither is good for the kind of longer range operations we're getting into and the second is especially bad for convoys like to the world we're fighting over that's now under siege by chaos.

If not a warp drive, I'd heavily advocate one of these two designs to support the Narwhal and let us actually use it, because regardless of all else, if we go around putting troop decks on ships at this point in time what's going to happen is that we aren't going to use them as boarding specialist, we're going to go 'aaah we need more troop transports' and use them to carry armies around to planets instead. And we've got GM confirmation that we need a source of boarders if we want to do boarding combat.

(Utility) Armsmen Garrison Deck
By dedicating an utility component's worth of space to housing Naval Armsmen and associated gear, as well as the needed equipment to maintain and repair frame armor such as Shelters, it is possible to maintain a substantial amount of them on board in both the deck itself and across the ship to supplement already existing security stations. This vastly increases both the quantity of trained manpower for shipboard combat operations and the amount of Shelter type Frame Armor available given the continual maintenance and repair issues such assets face. With this increased manpower, a ship so equipped can expect consistently superior results for onboard combat, both defensively or, if paired with an appropriate delivery system, offensively.

(Utility) Combat Servitor Bay: While all ships carry armsmen aboard, they are primarily meant to combat human-scale opponents and lack the strength and melee prowess of some xenos and heretic forces. Supplementing onboard troops with monotask combat servitors outfitted with integrated chain-weapons and heavy firearms will give our troops means to contend with hostile invaders and supplement our boarding forces with readily available and obedient forces stationed across the ship. Their numbers can also be maintained by a built-in servitor processing facility where Adeptus Mechanicus adepts can recycle the gravely wounded into functional combat servitors.

Honestly, I don't think we should be really looking into offensive boarding combat this turn, it's another specialty ship thing when we shouldn't be building a unit of specialty ships this turn, but if we make the boarding craft there's going to be heavy pressure to use them instead of making what we actually need, IE, troop transports, something for Yttreum, and more general combat units to deal with how we're being overstretched.
 
I'd really like to make a case for replacing them with a warp drive design, we're still using the merchant warp drives we started out with, which are noted to be slow and every time we've seen our ships enter a system they've been scattered around and need to reform formations. Neither is good for the kind of longer range operations we're getting into and the second is especially bad for convoys like to the world we're fighting over that's now under siege by chaos.

If not a warp drive, I'd heavily advocate one of these two designs to support the Narwhal and let us actually use it, because regardless of all else, if we go around putting troop decks on ships at this point in time what's going to happen is that we aren't going to use them as boarding specialist, we're going to go 'aaah we need more troop transports' and use them to carry armies around to planets instead. And we've got GM confirmation that we need a source of boarders if we want to do boarding combat.

(Utility) Armsmen Garrison Deck
By dedicating an utility component's worth of space to housing Naval Armsmen and associated gear, as well as the needed equipment to maintain and repair frame armor such as Shelters, it is possible to maintain a substantial amount of them on board in both the deck itself and across the ship to supplement already existing security stations. This vastly increases both the quantity of trained manpower for shipboard combat operations and the amount of Shelter type Frame Armor available given the continual maintenance and repair issues such assets face. With this increased manpower, a ship so equipped can expect consistently superior results for onboard combat, both defensively or, if paired with an appropriate delivery system, offensively.

(Utility) Combat Servitor Bay: While all ships carry armsmen aboard, they are primarily meant to combat human-scale opponents and lack the strength and melee prowess of some xenos and heretic forces. Supplementing onboard troops with monotask combat servitors outfitted with integrated chain-weapons and heavy firearms will give our troops means to contend with hostile invaders and supplement our boarding forces with readily available and obedient forces stationed across the ship. Their numbers can also be maintained by a built-in servitor processing facility where Adeptus Mechanicus adepts can recycle the gravely wounded into functional combat servitors.

Honestly, I don't think we should be really looking into offensive boarding combat this turn, it's another specialty ship thing when we shouldn't be building a unit of specialty ships this turn, but if we make the boarding craft there's going to be heavy pressure to use them instead of making what we actually need, IE, troop transports, something for Yttreum, and more general combat units to deal with how we're being overstretched.
If we make a boarding ship that uses a troop deck, I don't think using it for boarding in a naval engagement will prevent us from also using it as a troop transport that turn (unless of course we're looking to unload troops under fire). @DaLintyGuy, is that correct? If it is, then the additional flexibility is a big advantage; the troop transports we need to build this turn anyway can pull double-duty. You've got a point about the warp drives, though.
 
honestly both life support and warp engines are way too basic right now

Plan survival upgrades

-[ ] (Defence) Haptrix-Alpha Interlock Shields: The Haptrix-pattern shields are a serviceable design, but are fairly expensive, and have proven somewhat unreliable in practice. Perhaps worse, they are projected to scale up poorly both in terms of cost and in ability to stop capital-scale weaponry. This redesigned version uses a smaller number of larger shields to simplify the design and strengthen each pane, and arranges them in two concentric shells with the panes offset like bricks to provide redundant coverage.
-[ ] (Life support) 'Oasis' Life support system. By enhancing and expanding the air scrubbers from the minimalist designs present in merchant vessels, the Oasis can handle not only larger numbers of crew but can more easily filter and remove toxic gases created by battle damage and other accidents.
-[ ] (Warp drive) 'Longstride' Warp engine. While the typical drive uitilized in merchant shipping suffice, the minimal use of technology and advanced components to save costs caused them to have slow charge times, greatly limited speed through the Warp and not being suited for fast/emergency jumps. The Longstride was Calavar's first attempt at improving their engines to something closer to what is utilized on Imperial Navy ships.
-[ ] (Housing) 'Bastion' housing complex. Further experience with ship building has allowed for more effective placement of ratings and deckhands living space; giving better 'elbow room' while keeping mass and space costs low. As an additional benefit, this redesign includes security garrisons at vital locations (reactor, warp drive etc) to counter on-board rebellions or boarding attempts.

I shouldn't need to explain why upgrading the shields is a good idea
upgrading the life support would hopefully stop or at least minimise the damage anyone from using chem/bio weapons (Nurgle)
and upgrading the warp engines would allow for faster more precise travel.

the barracks I'm not 100% sure of but it should cut back on the losses the crews have been seeing virtually every time our ships have been boarded
 
If we make a boarding ship that uses a troop deck, I don't think using it for boarding in a naval engagement will prevent us from also using it as a troop transport that turn (unless of course we're looking to unload troops under fire). @DaLintyGuy, is that correct? If it is, then the additional flexibility is a big advantage; the troop transports we need to build this turn anyway can pull double-duty.
Turns are long enough that you can do that sort of thing.
 
honestly both life support and warp engines are way too basic right now

Plan survival upgrades

-[ ] (Defence) Haptrix-Alpha Interlock Shields: The Haptrix-pattern shields are a serviceable design, but are fairly expensive, and have proven somewhat unreliable in practice. Perhaps worse, they are projected to scale up poorly both in terms of cost and in ability to stop capital-scale weaponry. This redesigned version uses a smaller number of larger shields to simplify the design and strengthen each pane, and arranges them in two concentric shells with the panes offset like bricks to provide redundant coverage.
-[ ] (Life support) 'Oasis' Life support system. By enhancing and expanding the air scrubbers from the minimalist designs present in merchant vessels, the Oasis can handle not only larger numbers of crew but can more easily filter and remove toxic gases created by battle damage and other accidents.
-[ ] (Warp drive) 'Longstride' Warp engine. While the typical drive uitilized in merchant shipping suffice, the minimal use of technology and advanced components to save costs caused them to have slow charge times, greatly limited speed through the Warp and not being suited for fast/emergency jumps. The Longstride was Calavar's first attempt at improving their engines to something closer to what is utilized on Imperial Navy ships.
-[ ] (Housing) 'Bastion' housing complex. Further experience with ship building has allowed for more effective placement of ratings and deckhands living space; giving better 'elbow room' while keeping mass and space costs low. As an additional benefit, this redesign includes security garrisons at vital locations (reactor, warp drive etc) to counter on-board rebellions or boarding attempts.

I shouldn't need to explain why upgrading the shields is a good idea
upgrading the life support would hopefully stop or at least minimise the damage anyone from using chem/bio weapons (Nurgle)
and upgrading the warp engines would allow for faster more precise travel.

the barracks I'm not 100% sure of but it should cut back on the losses the crews have been seeing virtually every time our ships have been boarded

I like this. I would personally change the 'Bastion' housing complex for a "Mess" housing complex if only because it provides the rudimentary boarding populace needed for boarding actions in the future. Get that research necessity out of the way as it were.
 
I like this. I would personally change the 'Bastion' housing complex for a "Mess" housing complex if only because it provides the rudimentary boarding populace needed for boarding actions in the future. Get that research necessity out of the way as it were.
I'm going with the "Bastion" because it would give ships better defensive capability as well as an increased crew size rather then just cramming more bodies into every nook and cranny while hoping for the best.

Of course the "Mess" design would be a very imperial thing to do no matter how inefficient.
 
I'm going with the "Bastion" because it would give ships better defensive capability as well as an increased crew size rather then just cramming more bodies into every nook and cranny while hoping for the best.

Of course the "Mess" design would be a very imperial thing to do no matter how inefficient.

Heh, our citizenry cannot miss what they never had, like elbow room. :V

Though I do take umbrage at the "hoping for the best" and "inefficient" bits; craming more bodies into every nook and cranny is how we've done things until now and therefore a proven way of doing it. There is no "hoping for the best" as our ships already demonstrate it's the best with their every fight! And you aren't getting less with the "Mess" design, you are getting different advantages. "Bastion" does not make the "Mess" suddenly inefficient simply because the former has better advantages in defense while the latter has some advantages in defense while having prospective offensive abilities.

Mind, it also does not provide an "increase crew size"; It keeps it the same as now except with them having better quality of life arrangements.
 
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If I was going to ask for a change to the 'Bastion' housing complex it'd be to specifically mention the needed supply, storage, and maintenance areas for adding more of our exo-suit armors to ship security.

Speaking of that, there's something additional in our tech list that hasn't been mentioned as being added there yet, so I'm mentioning it.

[Exoskeleton Support Bays: With Crusade ships under ever increasing pressure and the Shelter Exoskeletons having proved their worth over Uniary, they were pushed forward as a replacement for the more difficult to produce Servitors. (2M, Housing Add-on)] (Role: Fire support and close combat brawlers)

Twice as much manufacturing cost as the Servitor Defense Stations, but no Artisan cost. Honestly I'm somewhat inclined to just add both of them to at risk ships, which leads me to this question.

@DaLintyGuy, are there rules for how many add ons we can add or is it a 'common sense' rule of only a few?
 
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-[ ] (Life support) 'Oasis' Life support system. By enhancing and expanding the air scrubbers from the minimalist designs present in merchant vessels, the Oasis can handle not only larger numbers of crew but can more easily filter and remove toxic gases created by battle damage and other accidents.
This seems so... unambitious. I'm sure we could do it, and it might not even cost extra, but it doesn't really feel necessary.
 
Heh, our citizenry cannot miss what they never had, like elbow room. :V
True but like I said boarding actions have been causing far to much damage for my liking so I'm hoping going in this direction will do something to curtail that.

craming more bodies into every nook and cranny is how we've done things until now and therefore a proven way of doing it.
We've been doing it that way because we've had no choice so far, who knows (apart from DaLintyGuy) maybe going with my choice will give more benefits then we think.

This seems so... unambitious. I'm sure we could do it, and it might not even cost extra, but it doesn't really feel necessary.
Like I said the main reason for going with this is in preparation for Bio/Chem attacks but I'm sure with some rewording it can be redesigned for damage control as well. ( I just can't think of it as it's late here and I'm tired, damned insomnia)
 
True but like I said boarding actions have been causing far to much damage for my liking so I'm hoping going in this direction will do something to curtail that.


We've been doing it that way because we've had no choice so far, who knows (apart from DaLintyGuy) maybe going with my choice will give more benefits then we think.

The main extra benefits from any module come from synergy my friend. Now, both the Bastion and Mess modules curtail boarding action damage. Bastion, however, also curtails breeches and weird payloads from the torpedoes. Mess provides soldiers that can in the future be used in boarding actions. Width versus depth of defense as it were.

This seems so... unambitious. I'm sure we could do it, and it might not even cost extra, but it doesn't really feel necessary.

I've been trying to think of anything else we might do with it and I am coming up short. Maybe an in-house hydroponic farms? In Last Chancers even penal legions get fruit juice because growing fruit is way easier then getting Vitamin C from the rations. Other then that I don't know.
 
[X] Plan: The War in the Void V.2
-[X] (Void Infantry/Armor) Calavar-pattern Chem Cannon: While burning Promethium is among the most iconic of the Imperium's tools with which to dispense death to the enemies of Humanity, it is at its core only as effective as the enemy is vulnerable to fire. Chem Cannons are a superlative means of area denial and strongpoint elimination, regretfully limited by the Imperial Guard's lack of widespread chemical protection equipment. Troops in Preserver suits or Shelter Armor are not so vulnerable to friendly fire in this manner, and the environments they are called to fight in are not always conducive to incendiary armaments. As well, the Imperial Guard's Banewolves are available for construction save for their infamous munitions. The delivery method itself is quite simple, the only true obstacle is developing a serviceable gas mixture.
-[X] (Strikecraft) Savior S-2: While the Savior has proven to be an effective multirole aerospace frame, it is not yet to the standards that the Admiralty have become accustomed to with Lexicalum imported Furies, most notably in its range. In terms of the mechanics, distances, and timeframes that void combat is fought in, pilot endurance becomes the core limitation to the craft's performance. The S-2 model of Savior endeavors to rectify this by means of a modified cockpit that will be flooded before launch, shielding the pilot from G-forces by means of fluid immersion. The pilot's helmets will plug into the craft itself, through which they are supplied oxygen, nutrients, water, and stimulants by an onboard supply of such during the flight. With an augmented capacity to withstand the stresses of high power maneuvers, the engines are also tuned for greater performance.
-[X] (Utility) Respite-pattern Naval Garrison: In many ways much the same as the regular expanded housing and life support for ground armies being conveyed from one theatre to another, the Respite-pattern diverges in replacing the space allotments for transporting a motor pool with expanded medicae facilities and armories able to maintain a greater stock of Preserver and Shelter armors. While this makes the housing unsuited for housing units with logistical needs that differ from Void Infantry, it allows for the presence of a dedicated boarding force, as well as improved longevity for the ship's Armsman complement.
-[X] (Boarding Craft) Narwhal Breacher Craft: The first dedicated boarding craft developed in the Crusade, the Narwhale outwardly bears a great deal of resemblance to the Harbinger Transport, because it uses the same hull configuration. Internal space has been sacrificed to add additional reinforcement to the superstructure, more powerful engines, and even install a small Void Shield. An array of hull cutters is affixed to the prow to force entry onto an enemy vessel and deliver its cargo of boarding parties.
 
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I've been trying to think of anything else we might do with it and I am coming up short. Maybe an in-house hydroponic farms? In Last Chancers even penal legions get fruit juice because growing fruit is way easier then getting Vitamin C from the rations. Other then that I don't know.
I'm thinking extra bulkheads + shutters, specialised cogitators and some way of venting fires to go with the enhanced air scrubbers,, I just can't think of how to word it.
 
-[X] (Strikecraft) Savior S-2: While the Savior has proven to be an effective multirole aerospace frame, it is not yet to the standards that the Admiralty have become accustomed to with Lexicalum imported Furies, most notably in its range. In terms of the mechanics, distances, and timeframes that void combat is fought in, pilot endurance becomes the core limitation to the craft's performance. The S-2 model of Savior endeavors to rectify this by means of a modified cockpit that will be flooded before launch, shielding the pilot from G-forces by means of fluid immersion. The pilot's helmets will plug into the craft itself, through which they are supplied oxygen, nutrients, water, and stimulants by an onboard supply of such during the flight. With an augmented capacity to withstand the stresses of high power maneuvers, the engines are also tuned for greater performance.
-[X] (Utility) Respite-pattern Naval Garrison: In many ways much the same as the regular expanded housing and life support for ground armies being conveyed from one theatre to another, the Respite-pattern diverges in replacing the space allotments for transporting a motor pool with expanded medicae facilities and armories able to maintain a greater stock of Preserver and Shelter armors. While this makes the housing unsuited for housing units with logistical needs that differ from Void Infantry, it allows for the presence of a dedicated boarding force, as well as improved longevity for the ship's Armsman complement.
I don't like either of these much. The S-1's problem isn't that the pilot can't take the G forces, it's that it's a dual-role machine, and so it's outdone by specialists. We're never going to get a fighter-bomber that fights as well as a Fury. As for the Respite, it seems like nothing more than Troop Deck 2: Crippling Overspecialization Edition.

Save these for next turn, it would be better to enhance the un-upgraded stuff first so that they don't fail us when we need them most.
Is there any particular reason to believe that they're on the verge of failing us? More boarding defenses would be nice, but as far as I know we've seen no signs of trouble on the life support front.
 
Is there any particular reason to believe that they're on the verge of failing us? More boarding defenses would be nice, but as far as I know we've seen no signs of trouble on the life support front.
The shields have been noted as struggling to keep up with enemy fire, the warp engines are slow and inaccurate, the life support just handles the ships population in normal operation and the barracks is the bare minimum needed to support the crew they could all be much better.
 
The shields have been noted as struggling to keep up with enemy fire, the warp engines are slow and inaccurate, the life support just handles the ships population in normal operation and the barracks is the bare minimum needed to support the crew they could all be much better.
The shields, yeah, I'm 100% behind upgrading the shields again. They aren't an unupgraded system, though. The warp engines, maybe. But the life support and housing have been nothing if not consistently adequate.

Naval Garrisons are organic to the ship and so won't be deployed elsewhere even when the ship is not operating in close support with ground forces. So it's not "over"specialization.
So you're saying that the benefit is that it's less flexible? That's... odd.
 
I've been trying to think of anything else we might do with it and I am coming up short. Maybe an in-house hydroponic farms? In Last Chancers even penal legions get fruit juice because growing fruit is way easier then getting Vitamin C from the rations. Other then that I don't know.
Considering the sheer size of Imperial ships (even the escorts) small duel purpose parks/semi-traditional farms are not out of the question. You just need to omit that third interior cathedral with fifty foot high ceilings and stain-glass windows.
 
It's troops don't zog off to go clobber cultists rather than defending the ship, and are better trained and equipped for boarding combat as they actually know the ship they are stationed on.
I guess the latter would help some, but couldn't we accomplish the former just by permanently assigning a void army to the ship? Is the benefit simply removing the temptation to detach them? Or are troop decks not actually suitable for long-term habitation?
 
I guess the latter would help some, but couldn't we accomplish the former just by permanently assigning a void army to the ship? Is the benefit simply removing the temptation to detach them? Or are troop decks not actually suitable for long-term habitation?
For one, I don't know if I will allow military ships to have a full on Troop Deck simply because of how HUEG such a thing has to be even with high density zoning.

For the other... A Void Army is 8M, more if you pick up Exoskeletons.
 
I guess the latter would help some, but couldn't we accomplish the former just by permanently assigning a void army to the ship? Is the benefit simply removing the temptation to detach them? Or are troop decks not actually suitable for long-term habitation?
It's also got expanded medical bays, so the crew casualties in combat will be lower. And as Linty said above, its going to be cheaper than having a Troop Deck + VI Army.
 
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For one, I don't know if I will allow military ships to have a full on Troop Deck simply because of how HUEG such a thing has to be even with high density zoning.

For the other... A Void Army is 8M, more if you pick up Exoskeletons.
Hmm. Well, if we don't have room for a full Void Army, that'd certainly be a reason not to use them. I've been thinking that the Respite would hold about as many men as a Troop Deck, and therefore cost at least as much as a Void Army, but if fitting a whole army into a military hull isn't on the table...
 
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