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Blood, Sweat, and Tears (WH40k Design Bureau)

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Sir_Travelsalot said:
Isn't the Armageddon classed as a battlecruiser though, even if it is converted from damaged Lunars?
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Yeah they apparently do a ton of reworking to the ship in order to power the lances (which apparently makes it too hard to normally be built from the ground up instead of canablizing Lunars:V). Also it's mentioned that they are very cramped* and not suited to long-term deployments.

*Oh Noes! We don't have the space for our traditional 40 foot high ceilings with inserted stain glass windows backlit by wax candles along with marble angels constantly singing hymns to the Emperor. How can we ever survive?!?
Seriously if you go by Space Hulk: Deathwing and other depictions, Imperial ships have a ton of empty and/or unused space. Compare this to IRL military vessels where cramped/max utilization of all availble space when possible is the name of the game.
 
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jwolfe_beta said:
Yeah they apparently do a ton of reworking to the ship in order to power the lances (which apparently makes it too hard to normally be built from the ground up instead of canablizing Lunars:V). Also it's mentioned that they are very cramped* and not suited to long-term deployments.

*Oh Noes! We don't have the space for our traditional 40 foot high ceilings with inserted stain glass windows backlit by wax candles along with marble angels constantly singing hymns to the Emperor. How can we ever survive?!?
Seriously if you go by Space Hulk: Deathwing and other depictions, Imperial ships have a ton of empty and/or unused space. Compare this to IRL military vessels where cramped/max utilization of all availble space when possible is the name of the game.
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It is dumb from a practical standpoint, until you consider that with the Warp, belief is power. The ships are built like cathedrals to evoke the sense of sacredness you get from temples, which combines with the Gellar Fields to keep Daemons out of the ship during Warp transit. Seeing as Warp travel capability is rather crucial for any ship that isn't a system monitor, that does justify it somewhat.
 
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Sir_Travelsalot said:
It is dumb from a practical standpoint, until you consider that with the Warp, belief is power. The ships are built like cathedrals to evoke the sense of sacredness you get from temples, which combines with the Gellar Fields to keep Daemons out of the ship during Warp transit. Seeing as Warp travel capability is rather crucial for any ship that isn't a system monitor, that does justify it somewhat.
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Well post Imperial Cult getting cemented into everything anyway. But there is the plothole (one of many throughout 40k) as to why the Emperor (who was pushing the Imperial Truth which was the whole: no gods, no daemons only science and reason) had all the Great Crusade ships blinged out as well.
 
jwolfe_beta said:
Well post Imperial Cult getting cemented into everything anyway. But there is the plothole (one of many throughout 40k) as to why the Emperor (who was pushing the Imperial Truth which was the whole: no gods, no daemons only science and reason) had all the Great Crusade ships blinged out as well.
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Back then I'd assume it was to awe those who were to become part of the Imperium. Considering the vast majority of human-inhabited planets joined in, no muss no fuss, I'd say it worked. That or Emps just really wanted to go around in ornate gold bling everywhere he went, and wanted his Imperium to reflect that.
 
Plus how every capital ship produced represented a lot of work and so became an emblem of pride for anyone who could launch one. And really, gold gets cheap when you get to the interstellar age.
 
The Mercury Class Battlecruiser (From the Battlefleet Bakka list) also has Dorsal Lance Turrets, and it's described as a 'Cruiser built with a battleship worth of engineering space', so that's another piece of evidence for the 'heavy/battle cruisers minimum' for lance turrets.

The knockoff bombardment cannon already gives precedent for 'if you put this weapon on an escort it is a spinal' type limitations though, so that's a thing? Or we can just build smaller weaker knockoff lances that can actually be turreted on smaller ships and accept the 'and its weaker and crappier' drawback. Not like we're fighting professional level enemy forces yet, as can be seen by how the few proper naval ships that've shown up so far have generally been considered major threats even if they're just escorts.
 
Happerry said:
The other ship is for the Patrol Squadron, so no. Also because the base version costs 26M and the Resolute-A costs 31M, and the only 'non total plan rewrite' way I can see to free the needed resources up is to completely discard purchasing any armies this turn, and I don't want to make that sacrifice.
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I think you can get there with one less army and not including the AMM' s in the -[X] 9x Refit - Add Servitor Defense Stations to all surviving ships of the 2nd Naval Squadron and the 3rd Naval Squadron. (9M, 9A)
Put both of the Resolute-A's in the 1st naval squadron and move one of the stock Resolutes to the new patrol squadron.
That way all corvettes in that squadron have improved engines allowing them to move as a group.
Shift the AMM with Servitor Defense Stations to the 2nd naval squadrons so you can put the AMM without them in the new patrol squadron.
 
Hmm. Let me try that.

sunrise said:
That way all corvettes in that squadron have improved engines allowing them to move as a group.
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This won't happen though, there'll still be the old resolute and the merchant carrier.

Edit : Done, and had 1M left over so went back to two Imperial Guard armies.
 
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jwolfe_beta said:
I mean it's what, battlecruisers and up that you have any form of lance turrets as opposed to side-mounted or spinal forms of the weapon?
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Unfortunately not quite. Once again the damnable Voss Trio (and Oberon I guess) show up to ruin my day of neat classifications with their prow-mounted weapons that can still fire sideways. And one of three, the carrier Defiant, has a lance one. So it's possible to fit a lance turret on a Light Cruiser, I guess.
Sir_Travelsalot said:
Honestly, it would be much less confusing if they just consistently referred to the broadsides as laser batteries instead of calling both them, the not much bigger turrets and the massive prow mount towers all by the term lance.
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It's because a lance is a specific type of armour-piercing weapon. If you call something a "laser battery" you imply that it's a laser-based macrobattery (again, like the Sword's turrets) which is completely different. And the prow mount towers are only massive because you only ever see prow lances on Escorts or Light Cruisers, it's a proportion thing.
DaLintyGuy said:
Hm. And Eternal's lore post corroborates.

On the flipside, the Armageddon is a Lunar given lance Turrets, so it is possible to make a Cruiser with Dorsal weapons over broadsides.
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As others have said, if you give a Cruiser dorsal weapons that's literally a Battlecruiser, that's the definition of a Battlecruiser. I mean you could strip out the broadsides but don't do that, that's a lotta firepower you're wasting. Even if you really hate the idea of broadsides just, IDK, use launch bays or something.
DaLintyGuy said:
Classified as such by the rebuild, and since there is only so much you can do to expand the hull I doubt they inserted another kilometer of length.
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They did not, the Armageddon is the same dimensions as its parent hull. According to the source that says that, also two million tons heavier, but Rogue Trader ship weights tend to be a bit low, especially for the larger ships. Not BattleTech or Weberfoam levels of light, but they're down there.
 
EternalStruggle said:
It's because a lance is a specific type of armour-piercing weapon. If you call something a "laser battery" you imply that it's a laser-based macrobattery (again, like the Sword's turrets) which is completely different. And the prow mount towers are only massive because you only ever see prow lances on Escorts or Light Cruisers, it's a proportion thing.
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Lunar-Class Cruiser. Don't recall those having a Nova Cannon, so what is that at the prow but a lance, still just as big too:

Overlord-Class Battlecruiser. That's a lance at the prow, still just as massive even when compared with the dorsal lance turrets:
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
Lunar-Class Cruiser. Don't recall those having a Nova Cannon, so what is that at the prow but a lance, still just as big too:
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That is not a lance. That is a ramming prow for ramming speed.

So technically it is a lance, after a fashion, but not the kind you're thinking of.
Sir_Travelsalot said:
Overlord-Class Battlecruiser. That's a lance at the prow, still just as massive even when compared with the dorsal lance turrets:
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That is also a ramming prow and not a lance.
 
DaLintyGuy said:
A Combat Lighter pilot going through his kill cam and explaining why his craft needs to be replaced. (Reward: A bonus of one or two to the next strike craft design action)
An armsman on The Resolute lamenting having to kill victims of the Nurglish cultists. (Reward: Probably a small bonus to developing a counter boarding Utility module.
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Just found this quest finally caught up. I think I can make both of these omakes. Anyone else have any ideas I could turn into an omake let me know.
 
Warmach1ne32 said:
Ooo~ I can see that. I'll get started on it now while the inpiration is there. Mechanicus names would help speed it up, I am terrible at making names.
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Calavar's Admech are mentioned to come from the local population, so unless they give themselves new names, regular ones should do. If not, a lot of Admech names that I've come across are a mixture of greek alphabet, numbers and various scientific terms. Like it wouldn't be out of place to come across a tech-priest named Doppler Delta-7899, for example.
 
Tasoli said:
Magos Lataminus
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No, you don't get a crotchety laser savant who hates everything that isn't his machines.
EternalStruggle said:
As others have said, if you give a Cruiser dorsal weapons that's literally a Battlecruiser, that's the definition of a Battlecruiser. I mean you could strip out the broadsides but don't do that, that's a lotta firepower you're wasting. Even if you really hate the idea of broadsides just, IDK, use launch bays or something.

They did not, the Armageddon is the same dimensions as its parent hull. According to the source that says that, also two million tons heavier, but Rogue Trader ship weights tend to be a bit low, especially for the larger ships. Not BattleTech or Weberfoam levels of light, but they're down there.
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I see, so there really is nothing keeping a Cruiser from having Turrets. It's just that those won't have the weight of fire to replace Broadside hardpoints, and take power from

Speaking of which, a redesign for Cruisers in in the work to make them more... More. As befits their size increase. This will make them far more expensive and powerful.
 
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Rules for Cruisin' (Prospective)
  • Apocrypha
    • With Cruisers becoming a potential for the relatively near future, it becomes important to start feeling out rules for such potent assets. Here are my current thoughts.

    Cost wise, a Light Cruiser is simply larger than an Escort by something over 27 times. We will not be using direct calculations like this but it is important to remember that they should be a lot more expensive than their lesser brethren.
    -Essential systems on a Light Cruiser will have their costs multiplied by four. With the probable exception of the Warp Engine due to most sources concurring on how larger ships get less benefit from being made monitors. Standard Cruisers then get doubled, then another doubling for Battleships. Macro-Capitals are unlikely to ever be needed, but would likely get hit by another 4x modifier to Essentials.
    -Weapon systems will get more expensive rather than having more Slots on the ship to denote the increased size of individual batteries, as mixing different weapons unnecessarily causes problems with target acquisition, barrages, and other important factors. Same for other modules. So a Light Cruiser may have a single Broadside, Prow, and Keel Hardpoint apiece to place Weapon Modules in, but each is going to be more capable than the same thing mounted on an Escort.
    --Facing becomes more important for Weapons as ships get larger so they will have to be decided during the Design Phase making the Hull rather than the untyped slots on an Escort.
    -A "Build Limit" would likely get enforced, where a hull can only have so much work done to it in the timeframe of one turn. Current estimate is 40 to 50.
     
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  • Apocrypha
    • 40 M. Just for the Essentials on a Light Cruiser. Not even accounting for the Hull, Weapons, Defenses, Engines and Utilities. Not even accounting for better tech later on. Cruiser Essentials with current modules come out to 92 M.

    Yeah, we're a long ways off from that, I'd say.
     
    DaLintyGuy said:
    I see, so there really is nothing keeping a Cruiser from having Turrets. It's just that those won't have the weight of fire to replace Broadside hardpoints, and take power from
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    Yeah, it's one of those things where I'm sure you can do it, but why?
    Sir_Travelsalot said:
    I already dread what the bill for a kitted out Battleship's going to look like...
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    Out of our price range.
    DaLintyGuy said:
    -Weapon systems will get more expensive rather than having more Slots on the ship to denote the increased size of individual batteries, as mixing different weapons unnecessarily causes problems with target acquisition, barrages, and other important factors. Same for other modules. So a Light Cruiser may have a single Broadside, Prow, and Keel Hardpoint apiece to place Weapon Modules in, but each is going to be more capable than the same thing mounted on an Escort.
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    Mmm, exactly. Although it'd be a slightly unusual arrangement, since generally underslung weapons count as "prow." I mean, if you wanted something specifically for planetstrike operations then a Keel mount makes a ton of sense, but that's specialist. For comparison, the Voss Trio hull would probably have a Broadside and two Prow mounts, and then use one (Endurance, Endeavour) or both (Defiant) of those to have front-mounted actual turrets, and if not both then the other is a pair of torpedo tubes, albeit as said of superior performance (Cobra grade instead of Falchion grade despite having a Falchion and not Cobra amount of tubes.)

    The Dauntless would just just have a Broadside and own Prow mount but be good in other areas, and them mount a Macrobattery and one of torps or lance depending on which of the two known models you want.
     
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