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A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

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Anyway, while waiting for the update, I figured I'd put forward my proposal for how we should design our "general purpose" detachment:

Troops:
Void Guardian Squad: A "jack of all trades" infantry squad, primarily focused on ranged combat but with decent melee as a back-up capability. 10 plasma rifles are backed up by two grenade launchers. The grenade launchers should provide lots of flexibility (frag for clearing hordes, krak for attacking vehicles, smoke for covering retreats, screamer for disorienting enemies). Plus the squad comes out to a nice round 200 EP cost, or 272 EP if we want them to have conversion shields
12x Void Guard armor (6 EP)
10x Sunblaster Caliver (6 EP)
2x Grenade launchers (4 EP)
12x Light Rending Blade (5 EP)
12x conversion shield Barriers (6 EP) (Optional)
1x Melta Bomb Pack (3 EP) (Optional)
200 EP per squad
275 EP with conversion shields and melta bomb pack
Elite:
Vanguard Squad: A Ithilmar equipped squad to support Void Guardian squads. These are basically terminator equivalents, using expensive equipment to be equally good at ranged and melee. I figure Ithilmar suits would be able to use starblaster carbines like pistols, giving them the ability to kill anything up to light vehicles while still using their power mauls, and a vibration culverin for cooking anything with too much armor for the starblasters to pierce.
6x Ithilmar Assault Suits (23 EP)
5x Starblaster Carbines (8 EP, 2 starcrystals)
1x Vibration Culverin (22 EP)
6x Power Mauls (20 EP)
6x Energy-Dispersion Barriers (6 EP)
356 EP and 10 starcrystals per squad
We could use these squads in the following medium detachment as a general purpose unit capable of handling most targets, and we could bring 6 such detachments in 1 warhost:
Headquarters:
Command squad with Force Commander and Warmaster in Mirage Hover-Transport
Elite:
1x Vanguard Squad in IFV
Troops:
3x Void Guardian Squads in Mirage Hover-Transports
Fast Attack:
2x Squads of 6 Jetbike MkII with heavy plasma guns
Heavy Support:
1x Upgraded Needlestorm IFV
Rough EP Cost: 3129 EP, 22 Starcrystals, 3 Fatebender Psy-scopes. 2401 EP if we don't take transports for the infantry squads
Command Squad: Assume about 342 EP for similar loadout to Vanguard squad but 6 starblasters =342, 12 starcrystals EP
Void Guardian squad: 200 EP *3 = 600 EP
Vanguard squad: 356 EP, 10 Starcrystals
Jetbikes: 25 base cost, +18 for vehicle holofield +15 for heavy plasma gun, + 10 for void guard armor, carbine = 68 EP * 12 = 816 EP
Needlestorm IFV: Base cost 236+18 for iteration upgrade,+33 for holofield and conversion shield=287 EP
Mirage Transports: 182 * 4 = 728 EP
12 Ithilmar Assault Suits
48 Void Guard Suits
18 Wraithweave Brigandine (for vehicle crews)
11 Starblaster Carbines
1 Vibration Culverin
12 Power Mauls
30 plasma rifles
6 Grenade Launchers
36 Light Rending Blades
12 Needler Carbines (for Jetbike riders)
12 Energy-Dispersion Field Generator
4 Mirage Transports
12 Jetbike MkIIs with heavy plasma guns and holofield
1 Needlestorm IFV with upgrades
 
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IronFist said:
I would go with fatecaster rifles to take advantage of the ithilmar suit's ability to fire heavy weapons on the move and to make up for the lack of autotargeters on the ithilmar armor.
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Fatecaster Rifles are heavy weapons, which heavy power armor treats like long-arms. I wanted the squad to be able to fire while still having their power mauls ready, but I think they wouldn't be able to do that with all heavy weapons.
 
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Captainwolf said:
Fatecaster Rifles are heavy weapons, which heavy power armor treats like long-arms. I wanted the squad to be able to fire while still having their power mauls ready, but I think they wouldn't be able to do that with all heavy weapons.
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fatesplitter carbines, maybe then? Unless you want the lascannon power, and not just an exotic weapon.
 
Captainwolf said:
Fatecaster Rifles are heavy weapons, which heavy power armor treats like long-arms. I wanted the squad to be able to fire while still having their power mauls ready, but I think they wouldn't be able to do that with all heavy weapons.
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If the armor doesn't explicitly say they will handle a ranged weapon/long arm (which the carbines are same as rifles) as a pistol/sidearm I would not build something under the assumption that it does change that interaction.

Edit:
Table for what they are classed as:
Mechanis said:
Starblaster Pistol41 StarcrystalSidearm
Starblaster Rifle102 StarcrystalsLongarm
Starblaser Carbine82 StarcrystalsLongarm
Starcarver308 StarcrystalsHeavy Weapon
Fatecutter Pistol31 Fatebender Psy-scopeSidearm
Fatesplitter Carbine71 Fatebender Psy-scopeLongarm
Fatecaster Rifle251 Fatebender Psy-scopeHeavy Weapon
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Edit2:
Something to note about the Power Maul:
Mechanis said:
Power Maul20
None		Longarm
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It is itself classed as a Longarm which means, no sidearm action in melee to my understanding.
 
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Skjadir said:
If the armor doesn't explicitly say they will handle a ranged weapon/long arm (which the carbines are same as rifles) as a pistol/sidearm I would not build something under the assumption that it does change that interaction.

Edit:
Table for what they are classed as:


Edit2:
Something to note about the Power Maul:


It is itself classed as a Longarm which means, no sidearm action in melee to my understanding.
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I had been thinking of terminators, who use a storm bolter and a power weapon in their off-hand, but it is a fair point that it might not work the same for us, or that a light power weapon might need to be used instead of a power maul.

If that is the case, then I would just use starblaster rifles, since I think they would be better vs light vehicles than fatecaster rifles and is cheaper
 
Captainwolf said:
I had been thinking of terminators, who use a storm bolter and a power weapon in their off-hand, but it is a fair point that it might not work the same for us, or that a light power weapon might need to be used instead of a power maul.
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Our Ithilmar suits can use a heavy weapon and 1 addition non-heavy weapon according to the armor chart on "Turn 1 | Infantry Rationalization I: Troops". They can use a heavy weapon and a full power maul.
 
Candesce said:
Grenade launchers, missile launchers, and heavy needlers all seem very appropriate. Should mitigate the lack of autotargeters, too.
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We don't need autotargeters to use ranged weapons, especially since we would probably be putting our veterans in these squads.

Edit: To be clear, the Vanguard Squad is supposed to primarily be a melee specialist, to make up for the fact that the 3 Void Guardian squads are generalists that dont specialize in melee. The point of using exotics on the vanguard squad is to allow them to still be good at ranged combat despite a melee focus
 
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Mmm.

I suspect we're going to be equipping a lot of our officers in Ithilmar, and as such the lack of autotargeters is going to matter because we're not going to put all our officers in melee squads.

And yeah, maybe highly-trained officers and veterans have higher baseline accuracy, but they're still going to be short the autotargeter bonus relative to officers and veterans with it.
 
Captainwolf said:
We don't need autotargeters to use ranged weapons, especially since we would probably be putting our veterans in these squads.

Edit: To be clear, the Vanguard Squad is supposed to primarily be a melee specialist, to make up for the fact that the 3 Void Guardian squads are generalists that dont specialize in melee. The point of using exotics on the vanguard squad is to allow them to still be good at ranged combat despite a melee focus
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Seems like a worse option than putting a cheaper ranged weapon on our melee-specialists and saving the more expensive ranged weapons for actual ranged units.
After all, if one group is going to be spending a good chunk of their time in melee and not able to fire freely, it shouldn't be the ones with the fancy guns.
 
The Sheer Rifle is ideal for melee Ithilmar squads I think. A squad can use it to eliminate entire squads of Orks in a single burst, create openings in enemy defenses, and eliminate vehicles with shocking speed.
 
See Go Reach said:
Seems like a worse option than putting a cheaper ranged weapon on our melee-specialists and saving the more expensive ranged weapons for actual ranged units.
After all, if one group is going to be spending a good chunk of their time in melee and not able to fire freely, it shouldn't be the ones with the fancy guns.
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Starblaster rifles aren't too expensive as long as we are only putting them on elites. A single starcrystal forge makes enough to equip 20 squads every turn, and it makes the squad be really flexible, capable of killing anything up to light vehicles at medium-long range, with medium-heavy vehicles being handled by the vibration culverin at close range.

RandomTechPriest said:
The Sheer Rifle is ideal for melee Ithilmar squads I think. A squad can use it to eliminate entire squads of Orks in a single burst, create openings in enemy defenses, and eliminate vehicles with shocking speed.
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True, but they are short range weapons. Starblasters have much longer range, and against most targets deal more than enough damage.

Edit: I kinda misspoke when I said Vanguard squads are supposed to be melee specialists. Really, their job to to be capable of dealing with any target. They have starblasters for anti-infantry and anti-light vehicle at medium-long range, the vibration culverin can destroy any tank by flash-boiling the crew through armor at short range, and the entire squad has power mauls so they can smash apart enemies in melee as needed.
 
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I would wait until we get Flip Belts for a really good anti-everything infantry. A VGA trooper with Starblaster Carbine, Light Gravity blade, and Flip Belt would be able to travel across a battlefield with near break neck speeds while dealing with just about every threat imaginable.
 
RandomTechPriest said:
I would wait until we get Flip Belts for a really good anti-everything infantry. A VGA trooper with Starblaster Carbine, Light Gravity blade, and Flip Belt would be able to travel across a battlefield with near break neck speeds while dealing with just about every threat imaginable.
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Relevant:


More seriously, Flip belts increase mobility, but that doesn't really make the soldier better at killing.
Edit: the exception would be for dense urban combat, where verticality and cover is more common and thus the benefit of being able to scale buildings to outflank enemy strongpoints is higher
 
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Captainwolf said:
Edit: the exception would be for dense urban combat, where verticality and cover is more common and thus the benefit of being able to scale buildings to outflank enemy strongpoints is higher
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Thats the situation I want them for. For wide open areas tanks would dominate anyways.

Edit: On a side note, every time I mention the Flip Belt I think we have massively different interpretations of their use CaptainWolf. Even on open fields where they would be "skeet", they wouldn't be flying 50 feet in the air, thats not what Flip Belts are made for. At most they would be 1-2 feet above the ground traveling towards their destination, not flying around like a bird.
 
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RandomTechPriest said:
Edit: On a side note, every time I mention the Flip Belt I think we have massively different interpretations of their use CaptainWolf. Even on open fields where they would be "skeet", they wouldn't be flying 50 feet in the air, thats not what Flip Belts are made for. At most they would be 1-2 feet above the ground traveling towards their destination, not flying around like a bird
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Yeah, the comic was a joke. Still, I don't see the utility of them outside of a handful of specialist units, and even then it's a "maybe" All Flip belts do is make infantry able to move a bit faster and do big jumps, its not a revolutionary item
 
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On the topic of the Flip Belt, I have the feeling people are taking a very useful item, applying it to the worst situation imaginable, and then declaring it useless. Of course your wouldn't want to fly across an open field, but you wouldn't want to be running across one anyways. Flip Belts can be used to evade land mines, enemy fortifications, quickly get in and out of cover, climb buildings, cross ravines and trenches, and even quickly deploy from a flying vehicle. Simply declaring its use as making its users "skeet" is exceedingly short sighted.
 
Flip belts are useful in tactical situations infantry is useful. Dense and vertical terrain where ultralight walkers are better than tanks.
 
@Mechanis question: are we going to get a more AP efficient way to do ship refits? We currently have 82 damaged capital ships and 190 damaged escorts. That means we need a total of 146 AP under the current rules in order to repair or refit all of our ships. We have almost enough dock space to do all the refits in one go, but it would take about 15 turns of nothing but starting refits to do them all.
 
Captainwolf said:
@Mechanis question: are we going to get a more AP efficient way to do ship refits? We currently have 82 damaged capital ships and 190 damaged escorts. That means we need a total of 146 AP under the current rules in order to repair or refit all of our ships. We have almost enough dock space to do all the refits in one go, but it would take about 15 turns of nothing but starting refits to do them all.
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More than that. I forget the precise number but between functional ships and none functional ones we need between 240 and 250 AP, just to get all our ships with standard defenses.
 
On an unrelated topic, while we don't have any armored divisions right now, creating a rune for them might be a fun idea. If they are going to be the most important part of our fighting strategy like I suspect they will be I want them to be set apart like how different branch's of the US military have their own flags. I know we should definitely have a hammer in it but I'm not sure what else. Maybe something representing Isha?
 
It's probably worth considering the existing unit icons, as a point of comparison.

... It's probably just as well that Mechanis didn't post some for our first wave of new unit designs; I don't know how many of them we're actually going to use.
 
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