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A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

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See Go Reach said:
Just to clarify, this 'extra' squad effectively occupies the organisational slot of the Leader Unit and doesn't take up their own Elite/HQ slot? If not, I'm not sure why they're 'extra', beyond Eldar just kind of being a bunch of divas by default.


If the number of members in the Standard Squad is less than or greater than the number of other units in the Detachment, can we preference which squads get more than one attachment (if that's possible) or get skipped? If we use two organisational slots on Standard Squads of different types and break both up, can we attach two different leader types to the same squad?
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In order: Yes, Single Unit commanders can get a "Free" Elite or HQ squad as, effectively, part of their wargear; the tricky bit is that this means they can't be attached to other squads by default and don't get any other Attachments (such as, say, a transport.)
Yes and Yes and Yes. You can only attach a maximum of three things to a squad, but within that limit can do whatever.

Cliffs Notes version, Single Units are basically all your Single Model HQ choices, but they get to take a bodyguard squad for free if they want. a standard squad is like Warlocks, you can take them as a blob of murder, or throw them at single squads. Command Squads are the IG mechanic, a bunch of specialists all piled together.
Alectai said:
Okay, I have been fooded, let's see here.

Just confirming, but a Warhost Command unit applies its Warhost And it's Detachment bonuses to the entire Warhost? Is that correct @Mechanis ?

Or does it exclusively activate their Warhost Powers and we need Detachment Command units for Detachment Powers?
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Detachment and warhost powers are applied separately/segregated yes. So detachment abilities affect a detachment the Leader Unit is leading, and Warhost abilities affect a Warhost (including the HQ detachment!)
Alratan said:
@Mechanis, can we pick multiple options for a hero unit?

So we can have them in a command squad but also have the option to take standard squads of them?

I'd be tempted to have Warseer Commanders as Single leaders and then have everyone else be in a Command Squad and be available in Standard Squads.
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You can choose any deployment spread for each, yes. So if you wanted to have things show up as only singles? you can do that. plan to only have standard/command squads? you can do that. etc.
Captainwolf said:
@Mechanis why would we attach these leaders to anything other than HQ units? I thought we are going to get squad leader rare units for squads?
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Partly because Wargear, partly because Rare Units can get extra abilities from experience. So if, for example, you have a piece of wargear given out to Leader A that happens to synergize really well with a specific squad, you can add them on there.
 
Ooof, alright then, good to know. So, Singletons can be attached to a Standard Squad as a supplement, but only one of them, is that correct @Mechanis

So like, I could have Command Squad with a Warmaster and a Force Commander, and attach either a Warseer or a Warsinger Captain as a singleton unit to that Command Squad, but I wouldn't be able to say, have a Warseer and a Warsinger attached to that same Command Squad, is that correct @Mechanis?

Also on that note, a Standard Squad is "One HQ character + a Bodyguard", and can presumably attach one singleton unit to it, but we can't have two HQ units in a single Standard Squad, is that right?
 
Alectai said:
Also on that note, a Standard Squad is "One HQ character + a Bodyguard"
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Hmm?

I read that as a Single Unit is "One HQ character + an optional Bodyguard." Standard Unit as several commanders of the same type.

Edit: Just to check, @Mechanis, we're not currently defining our Headquarters Squads, right? Just the parts we'll eventually build them out of?
 
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So, I see no reason to take standard squads. They would only be useful if we have more leaders than detachments, to allow us to still deploy those leaders to gain XP. But we will probably be expanding our forces fast enough that such a case won't really happen.

We need a basic command squad for detachments, and a full command squad for warhosts or elite detachments.

Finally, Warseer training time is shorter than Warsinger Captain training time, so we want independent warseers to attach to detachments when we have extras:
[] Plan Simple Solutions
-[ ] Single Units
--[ ] Warseer
-[ ] Detachment Command Squad
--[ ] Force Commander
--[ ] Warmaster
-[ ] Warhost Command Squad
--[ ] Force Commander
--[ ] Warmaster
--[ ] Warseer
--[ ] Warsinger Captain
 
Alectai said:
Also on that note, a Standard Squad is "One HQ character + a Bodyguard", and can presumably attach one singleton unit to it, but we can't have two HQ units in a single Standard Squad, is that right?
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No? The "one HQ character plus a(n optional) bodyguard" choice is the Single Unit.
The Standard Squad is up of up to eight individuals of the same Leader Unit type, either deploying together as a squad or splitting up and attaching members to each existing unit in the detachment.
You could get two HQ unit types in one, but that would be by using a Standard Squad as the bodyguard selection for a Single Unit, like putting together a Seer Council made up of one Farseer and (up to) eight Warlocks.

Captainwolf said:
So, I see no reason to take standard squads. They would only be useful if we have more leaders than detachments, to allow us to still deploy those leaders to gain XP. But we will probably be expanding our forces fast enough that such a case won't really happen.
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There's also the case that we might be able to use them as bodyguards for Hero units, or cycle them through particular units to gain specific types of XP/abilities; attaching Warsingers to Walker units might get them Walker-specific unlocks, for instance.

Captainwolf said:
Finally, Warseer training time is shorter than Warsinger Captain training time
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Training Warseer Commanders needs available Rare Unit Warseers, and those take two turns at two Seer AP each for a circle we don't know the size of (but may be 6, based on the precedent of the Battlecasters). Then it takes three turns under Sign of the Warrior (or maybe Hero, if this gets shuffled to that?), for five turns total.
Meanwhile, Warsinger Captain is five turns of Warrior(/Hero).
They're the same effective length, though with more complicated logistics for Warseer.

Mechanis said:
You can choose any deployment spread for each, yes. So if you wanted to have things show up as only singles? you can do that. plan to only have standard/command squads? you can do that. etc.

Partly because Wargear, partly because Rare Units can get extra abilities from experience. So if, for example, you have a piece of wargear given out to Leader A that happens to synergize really well with a specific squad, you can add them on there.
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Considering we don't have any of said Wargear (or knowledge of how many of these we'll be able to supply), will we be able to come back and change these selections as we unlock more stuff?
 
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Probably going to sit this vote out since it flies right over my head. Feels like I'd need to actually know the tabletop game mechanics well to understand it, and I really don't.
 
Honestly, this vote is kinda pointless. We don't have enough info to know how many we can reasonably produce, or if we will ever have enough to put more than 1 of each type per detachment

@Mechanis can we just skip this vote until we actually have these characters. It's going to literally be as long as this quest has currently taken until we even will have all 4 types of leaders
 
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Alectai said:
Ooof, alright then, good to know. So, Singletons can be attached to a Standard Squad as a supplement, but only one of them, is that correct @Mechanis

So like, I could have Command Squad with a Warmaster and a Force Commander, and attach either a Warseer or a Warsinger Captain as a singleton unit to that Command Squad, but I wouldn't be able to say, have a Warseer and a Warsinger attached to that same Command Squad, is that correct @Mechanis?

Also on that note, a Standard Squad is "One HQ character + a Bodyguard", and can presumably attach one singleton unit to it, but we can't have two HQ units in a single Standard Squad, is that right?
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Single commanders may optionally come with a bodyguard squad, in exchange for losing the ability to be attached to other things.
EG, Maugan Ra can show up with a squad of Dark Reapers for free as a single slot, but couldn't also get other attachment (Transport, other Leaders etc), or he can show up by himself and be attached to a normal squad like a normal attachment.

Standard Squads are up to eight of one specific leader type and may optionally get broken up to use as Attachments; otherwise they operate like a normal squad.
EG, Warlock Council vs individual Warlocks attached to squads.

A Command Squad is all Special units like a standard squad, but has more than one kind of unit in it; EG the OG Court of the Young King and its "Hi We're six Exarchs"

Captainwolf said:
Honestly, this vote is kinda pointless. We don't have enough info to know how many we can reasonably produce, or if we will ever have enough to put more than 1 of each type per detachment

@Mechanis can we just skip this vote until we actually have these characters. It's going to literally be as long as this quest has currently taken until we even will have all 4 types of leaders
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no, because how you intend to deploy them affects which improvement projects you get and what sorts of equipment proposals you gain access to (that's next) several of which become available for development immediately.
 
Ohhh, so, Standard Squads are for mass production, where we get a bunch for one training option, and then can attach them to regular units to propagate their special rules over as wide a spread as possible, Singletons are the commander and a goon squad that are strong but lacking flexibility, and Command Squads are "Everyone on the table is a Character rather than a generic blorbo?"

So, would we be able to assemble command squads with our entire officer options to give a single Warhost a big pile of special rules? Or are we limited to one HQ rule per detachment and one overall for Warhost Command @Mechanis ?
 
Alectai said:
Standard Squads are for mass production, where we get a bunch for one training option, and then can attach them to regular units to propagate their special rules over as wide a spread as possible
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But these characters don't have special rules that apply just to squads? So that doesn't make sense, because as far as special rules go, there is no difference between having 1 or having 8 in a detachment?
 
Alectai said:
Ohhh, so, Standard Squads are for mass production, where we get a bunch for one training option, and then can attach them to regular units to propagate their special rules over as wide a spread as possible, Singletons are the commander and a goon squad that are strong but lacking flexibility, and Command Squads are "Everyone on the table is a Character rather than a generic blorbo?"

So, would we be able to assemble command squads with our entire officer options to give a single Warhost a big pile of special rules? Or are we limited to one HQ rule per detachment and one overall for Warhost Command @Mechanis ?
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They are the graduating class from our officers school. In essence.

We set up the training regime and they go through it in batches after which we distribute them accordingly.
 
Captainwolf said:
But these characters don't have special rules that apply just to squads? So that doesn't make sense, because as far as special rules go, there is no difference between having 1 or having 8 in a detachment?
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They don't (as far as we know) have any special rules that apply to squads yet.
Mechanis said:
no, because how you intend to deploy them affects which improvement projects you get and what sorts of equipment proposals you gain access to (that's next) several of which become available for development immediately.
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If we put them in Standard Squads, that may well change.
Also, Warseers (not Commanders) don't have any specific special rules at all (that we know of) at all, yet "Intended as a command unit for the largest or most important Warhosts, a Mechanized Headquarters detachment brings two squads each of Hearthguard Veterans, Fatebreakers, and Brightstars, each with an attached Warseer".
We've been told multiple times we are (by design) working with incomplete information here. Just because we haven't been given a specific named rule for an ability/effect doesn't mean some kind of rule doesn't exist in the background.

Mechanis said:
[Snip]
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Not sure if you missed me editing it in or intentionally aren't answering this question, but if the former:
See Go Reach said:
Mechanis said:
Partly because Wargear, partly because Rare Units can get extra abilities from experience. So if, for example, you have a piece of wargear given out to Leader A that happens to synergize really well with a specific squad, you can add them on there.
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Considering we don't have any of said Wargear (or knowledge of how many of these we'll be able to supply), will we be able to come back and change these selections as we unlock more stuff?
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?
Also,
Mechanis said:
You can choose any deployment spread for each, yes. So if you wanted to have things show up as only singles? you can do that. plan to only have standard/command squads? you can do that. etc.
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Are we defining those Command Squads now, or just "which leaders can go in Command Squads?" Kind of need an answer to this before we can actually format any vote plans.
 
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Seriously though, we need:
- single unit deployments to outfit warhosts we have with leaders ASAP
- command squads for multi layer leadership for sometimes later. We might want to do it later even
 
See Go Reach said:
They don't (as far as we know) have any special rules that apply to squads yet.

If we put them in Standard Squads, that may well change.
Also, Warseers (not Commanders) don't have any specific special rules at all (that we know of) at all, yet "Intended as a command unit for the largest or most important Warhosts, a Mechanized Headquarters detachment brings two squads each of Hearthguard Veterans, Fatebreakers, and Brightstars, each with an attached Warseer".
We've been told multiple times we are (by design) working with incomplete information here. Just because we haven't been given a specific named rule for an ability/effect doesn't mean some kind of rule doesn't exist in the background.


Not sure if you missed me editing it in or intentionally aren't answering this question, but if the former:

?
Also,

Are we defining those Command Squads now, or just "which leaders can go in Command Squads?" Kind of need an answer to this before we can actually format any vote plans.
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The latter. You may, after all, wish to invest in other Rare Unit types that could be added to those squads before formally establishing them, after all.

To use an Imperium example, a Guard Command Squad doesn't just have a General in it, but a Commissar, perhaps two or three flavors of Psyker, a voxman, a standard bearer, probably a naval, Mechanicum, Ecclesiarchal and administratum liason, perhaps an assassin or two, and of course a pile of bodyguards even if each of the Important Personages only brings one or two.
You probably aren't going to get to quite that level of size and variaty for some time --- if ever --- but you will probably want to invest in a few other options besides just these four units.
 
Is there any reason not to get all the options?

I can see scenarios where we might want to deploy these units in any of the three configurations.

So we take these units as command squads, standard squads, and single units, depending on the detachment they're in.

For example, I could easily see us wanting to have a full command squad of all four officers and a standard squad of eight of one of them in the same detachment.

E.g.

[] Plan All of the Above
- [] Single Units
-- [ ] [Single] Force Commander
-- [ ] [Single] Warsinger Captain
-- [ ] [Single] Warmaster
-- [ ] [Single] Warseer Commander
- [ ] Standard Squad
-- [ ] [Standard] Force Commander
-- [ ] [Standard] Warsinger Captain
-- [ ] [Standard] Warmaster
-- [ ] [Standard] Warseer Commander
- [ ] Command Squad
-- [ ] [Command] Force Commander
-- [ ] [Command] Warsinger Captain
-- [ ] [Command] Warmaster
-- [ ] [Command] Warseer Commander
 
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See Go Reach said:
There doesn't seem to be, beyond bookkeeping bloat.
Maybe less powerful development options than a more focused approach?
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Given how opaque the system is; even if this is the case I think we should I take all the options so we can test how the different setups work and then refine the list down after we get some experience.

Perhaps we'll discover that one officer type works very well as squad leaders and another doesn't, then we can see about taking the option that doesn't off the list in future.

For now though, I don't think we know enough to rule anything out.

We're likely to have lots of detachments to test out different officer configurations with.
 
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Alratan said:
Given how opaque the system is; even if this is the case I think we should I take all the options so we can test how the different setups work and then refine the list down after we get some experience.

Perhaps we'll discover that one officer type works very well as squad leaders and another doesn't, then we can see about taking the option that doesn't off the list in future.

For now though, I don't think we know enough to rule anything out.

We're likely to have lots of detachments to test out different officer configurations with.
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I would skip standard squads, because I don't ever see why we would have more than 1 of each in a detachment, but other than that yeah might as well take all the options
 
Captainwolf said:
I would skip standard squads, because I don't ever see why we would have more than 1 of each in a detachment, but other than that yeah might as well take all the options
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If I read correctly, Standard Squads allow us to produce a batch of leaders in a single action to either concentrate in one Slot for hell of a punch or spread around the army to get wide applications of benefits without having to spend an ungodly ampunt of actions training our guys.
 
Captainwolf said:
I would skip standard squads, because I don't ever see why we would have more than 1 of each in a detachment, but other than that yeah might as well take all the options
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Standard squads are a (likely) cheapest way of having one in each department. We can have 2 hq squads in leading detachment: one is warhost leader squad, the other can be standard squad of 8 leaders that then get attached to detachments.
 
vsh said:
Standard squads are a (likely) cheapest way of having one in each department. We can have 2 hq squads in leading detachment: one is warhost leader squad, the other can be standard squad of 8 leaders that then get attached to detachments.
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No, it says
Mechanis said:
Standard squads can either operate as a normal squad, or be broken up to be attached to other units in a Detachment
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"Detachment", not "Detachments". You can't split the squad to put it in other detachments, it can only be units in the same detachment

Edit: basically, the use cases for standard squads are as follows:
1. You give really expensive and rare equipment to the characters in the squad, so you can spread the rare weapons out across a detachment without having to edit line squad loadouts for every detachment.
2. You have more leaders than you have detachments. You put the spare leaders in anyway, even though they are redundant, because that way they can earn XP instead of just sitting on the craftworld doing nothing
3. You have a rare character type that is really good at killing stuff (IE battlecasters, bladedancers, etc). You put the special characters in a standard squad to act as a "super" squad. Examples of this are Warcasting Circles and Sworddance Troupes
 
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