No, it is an Engineering Solution with a better understanding of the underlying Mechanism of the Materium/Warp. Otherwise you could call for us to give up Anti-Gravity Devices, because Wheels and Threads are clearly the better low Tech Engineering Solution.
That's not the same at all.

Anti gravity devices are both safe and superior to wheels and thread.
Teleportation instead of doors is neither: A jaunt through the warp is by it's nature unsafe, and the end result is no different to replacing doors. It's risking something, for basically no gain at all.

Teleportation to bypass and surprise the enemy: Sure.
Teleportation because we couldn't figure out a proper door mechanism for our light tank? Ridiculous.

The warp being dangerous is a setting fact. You can mitigate the danger with time and effort, but using it to replace doors is impractical.
 
Expensive transports make sense for specialist infantry, just part of a cost of having a great tool for special jobs. Like yeah, three platoons of double-shielded terminator-equivalents armed with a heavy weapon and power maul each in what's basically Crassus on steroids are going to cost us 80 EP each but there's nothing that can stop them after they pour in via an unplanned entrypoint made with a grav-sheer cannon.

That's how I see the main use of Ithilmar. Have an entire detachment of Eldar equipped with it, and have them be our face breakers who are first in and last out when assaulting fortifications.

A full detachment could easily be over fifty infantry. The Heavy Gravity detachment I sketched out before had 78. Excluding transports and jetbikes just the infantry would cost;

78 Ithilmar
78 Energy Dispersion Field
12 Melee Gravity Blades
12 Graviton Sheer Rifles
36 Power Mauls
36 Sunblaster Culverins
24 Melee Rending Blades
24 Heavy Point Singularity Projectors
Plus Weapons for HQ unit

Including the HQ unit, that's eight squads.

The Elites with Gravity Swords and Grav Sheer Rifles cost 65, the Sunblaster+Power Maul armed troops cost 64 and the Point Singularity Projector+Rending Blade armed troops cost 62. All together that's 4,572 EP for the soldiers, with the HQ cost on top. Assuming there were six of them, we'd probably give them Exotic weapons, say, half with Fatecaster Rifles and half with Starcarvers. Now, both the Warseer and the Bonesinger are psykers, so they'd probably be equipped with Force Staves, and the others could have Gravity Blades. That adds up to 435.

In total; that's 5,007 points. It's very nearly one Forge use, if we wanted to print out the gear for the infantry.

Eight assault transports at an average of say 250 EP each would be a quite reasonable cost for them, but we would have to design the new hull first.

In the interim, we'd probably want to deliver these units by temporary Webway burrowings or directly from boarding craft.

One other thing we also might want to consider for the short run is whether we want to form some exotic armed Ithilmar or armoured detachments.

If we want to contribute to Saim-Ham's Wild Hunt we're not going to be sending large numbers of troops, so we might instead want to send out some exceptionally effective ones filling a niche that Eldar don't have many units for.

This applies to both the Fata Morgana and Ithilmar equipped detachments. An initial run of Exotic Fata Morganas each with a Starlance and a Fareshredder Cannon recycled from our existing vehicles replacing the Needlestorm and Blazefire alongside Hearthguard infantry squads with their armour swapped for Ithilmar (VGW for jetbikes) could punch well above their numbers might suggest. We'd probably want to give the infantry Energy Dispersion Fields and Gravity Blades, but the combination of massive protection and exotic weapons could make them very effective.

Uhhh... No? Warp spiders risk their lives with every jump.
We're not going to use that as a feature of our transports.
Every time you use this device, there's a 1/36 chance that you get horribly eaten by demons.

No thanks.

IIRC, in the first iteration of their rules, when they could double jump in a turn, it was only on the second jump that they had a risk of being eaten by daemons, who'd been alerted by the first jump or something.

Yes, but there are demonstrated Methods of Teleportation, that do not use the Warp. You jokingly suggested to me the Necron Monolith. :V

Ironically, we have one of those. Temporary Webway Burrowings are effectively teleportation.

More seriously, if we can develop vehicle portable Webway portals at acceptable cost, then depending on how they work this effectively could be this, with the Webway portal opened outside the vehicle.
 
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That's how I see the main use of Ithilmar. Have an entire detachment of Eldar equipped with it, and have them be our face breakers who are first in and last out when assaulting fortifications.

A full detachment could easily be over fifty infantry. The Heavy Gravity detachment I sketched out before had 78. Excluding transports and jetbikes just the infantry would cost;

78 Ithilmar
78 Energy Dispersion Field
12 Melee Gravity Blades
12 Graviton Sheer Rifles
36 Power Mauls
36 Sunblaster Culverins
24 Melee Rending Blades
24 Heavy Point Singularity Projectors
Plus Weapons for HQ unit

Including the HQ unit, that's eight squads.

The Elites with Gravity Swords and Grav Sheer Rifles cost 65, the Sunblaster+Power Maul armed troops cost 64 and the Point Singularity Projector+Rending Blade armed troops cost 62. All together that's 4,572 EP for the soldiers, with the HQ cost on top. Assuming there were six of them, we'd probably give them Exotic weapons, say, half with Fatecaster Rifles and half with Starcarvers. Now, both the Warseer and the Bonesinger are psykers, so they'd probably be equipped with Force Staves, and the others could have Gravity Blades. That adds up to 435.

In total; that's 5,007 points. It's very nearly one Forge use, if we wanted to print out the gear for the infantry.

Eight assault transports at an average of say 250 EP each would be a quite reasonable cost for them, but we would have to design the new hull first.

In the interim, we'd probably want to deliver these units by temporary Webway burrowings or directly from boarding craft.

One other thing we also might want to consider for the short run is whether we want to form some exotic armed Ithilmar or armoured detachments.

If we want to contribute to Saim-Ham's Wild Hunt we're not going to be sending large numbers of troops, so we might instead want to send out some exceptionally effective ones filling a niche that Eldar don't have many units for.

This applies to both the Fata Morgana and Ithilmar equipped detachments. An initial run of Exotic Fata Morganas each with a Starlance and a Fareshredder Cannon recycled from our existing vehicles replacing the Needlestorm and Blazefire alongside Hearthguard infantry squads with their armour swapped for Ithilmar (VGW for jetbikes) could punch well above their numbers might suggest. We'd probably want to give the infantry Energy Dispersion Fields and Gravity Blades, but the combination of massive protection and exotic weapons could make them very effective.
Maybe a couple of forge actions, one for the infantry, and another for some transport and some tanks.
 
Ironically, we have one of those. Temporary Webway Burrowings are effectively teleportation.

More seriously, if we can develop vehicle portable Webway portals at acceptable cost, then depending on how they work this effectively could be this, with the Webway portal opened outside the vehicle.
There is also the Webway shunt generators of the Skathach Wraithknights that are able to enter and exit the Webway at will.

As a side note one of the early playtesting versions of the Harlequins that was released had them have "phase fields" that allowed them to phase into and out of the webway allowing effectively teleportation as a war gear option. Although I don't think it ever got out of the playtest version.
 
Maybe a couple of forge actions, one for the infantry, and another for some transport and some tanks.

It depends. If we were to build an Ithilmar Foundry then if it's as productive as the existing armour foundry we have then it would make 39 (40 if we're lucky and it rounds up slightly) suits of power armour a turn.

We may be better off building a couple of them for 4 BAP, as that would make more suits of Ithilamr from three turns after production starts onwards than a Forge action, and a Forge action is usually worth four BAP saved.

We'd only need to do the Forge actions if we wanted to rush some extra shock infantry detachments into service in time for the Wild Hunt.

Which we might. Particularly for vehicles, as if the Fata Morgana hull is designed it'll likely to be pretty shortly before the Wild Hunt sets off.

An exotic variant of the Fata Morgana recycling weapons from the Needlestorm and Blazestar would hopefully be pretty quick to build (if the weapons could be recycled), and so we could possibly get a lot of them with a single Forge action. With the 7 free system slots they could also be made as IFVs with seven transport slots, so they could cleanly replace the Needlestorm's role as well as the Blazestar.

If we're lucky we could combine this with upgrading the old Needlestorms and Blazestars into the iterated hull to turn into 12 man enclosed transports.

There is also the Webway shunt generators of the Skathach Wraithknights that are able to enter and exit the Webway at will.

As a side note one of the early playtesting versions of the Harlequins that was released had them have "phase fields" that allowed them to phase into and out of the webway allowing effectively teleportation as a war gear option. Although I don't think it ever got out of the playtest version.

There's a Harlequin in one of the novels who can do that, running into walls that temporarily become Webway portals.
 
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In the interim, we'd probably want to deliver these units by temporary Webway burrowings or directly from boarding craft.
We don't have webway borrowings. It's 25 years since the fall and the Aeldari are still getting used to what they can and can't achieve with psyker now as well as adjusting there methods for efficiency. Until it actually get's developed in quest we'll just have to board things by having Zahr-Tann hold the door.
 
A general no thanks on using forge actions to directly build gear from me.

It just isn't worth it.
We send on the hunt what we have build using foundries at that point and that will/should have to do.
Most likely we'll use the Organize Troops vote to come to kitbash together a suitable warhost and set up equipment refits as we build factories.
 
Reverse engineering necron teleportation to get out of our tanks will cost more AP than designing new doors.
especially since designing such doors would be part and parcel of making a chassis into a troop carrier to begin with, much of the time, and so costs nothing beyond making a design in the first place.

Aaanyway.
 
990.M29 | Turn 5 | The Burden of Command II
The next major choice in command is how you choose to deploy each unit type. There are three possible paths to take. The first is to deploy a Leader Unit as a Single Unit. While this results in a single Leader Unit occupying an entire organizational slot, it allows them to be freely attached to an 'extra' squad of Elites or Headquarters squad as a bodyguard unit if desired. The second option is to deploy units as Standard Squads, which may contain up to eight of a single homogenous unit type. Standard squads can either operate as a normal squad, or be broken up to be attached to other units in a Detachment (though they still occupy the relevant organizational slot); this is generally recommended to be restrained to 'lower level' Leader Units which are relatively easy to train in large numbers. The final option is to use a Command Squad, a heterogenous squad entirely consisting of Leader Units. Command Squads are the most efficient method of deploying a wide range of Leader Units in a Detachment, but obviously can be the most difficult to assemble, as they can require a variety of different training times.
Note that you may deploy your Leader Units in any and all configurations if desired, and issue different equipment depending on how you intend to deploy them.

[ ] Single Units
- [ ] Force Commander
- [ ] Warsinger Captain
- [ ] Warmaster
- [ ] Warseer Commander


[ ] Standard Squad
- [ ] Force Commander
- [ ] Warsinger Captain
- [ ] Warmaster
- [ ] Warseer Commander


[ ] Command Squad
- [ ] Force Commander
- [ ] Warsinger Captain
- [ ] Warmaster
- [ ] Warseer Commander

You may select any combination of the above options.

12 Hour Moratorium

 
So, we want two types of command squads:
1. Detachment command squad with Force Commander and Warleader
2. Warhost command squad with all four commander types.
3. Maybe independent force commander for attaching to existing hearthguard veteran Squads (our current HQ unit)
 
Trainings time wise i think we are looking at single units to not get even more hammered by the trainings times ?

Warseer Commander at least can't be included in the Command squad without fucking us over pretty hard because they need trained psykers before the training can even start.
 
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Warsinger and maybe Warseer Commander are the two I can actually see us using as Single Units; that gives them the flexibility to be attached to specific detachments that aren't the HQ Detachment.

Force Commander and Warmaster are our cheap commanders, and they provide valuable generalist bonuses I'd like to see everywhere, so are good picks for Standard Squads.

Command Squads I'd like to see having one of each.

Edit: wait, I missed something here. These are detachment level oganizations, not warhost level.
 
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Ok, reading more carefully, and keeping in mind this is a "how do we use our special characters" question, not a matter of immediate squad design:

Single unit: High flexibility hero unit, but they cost an entire squad on the org chart, so they'd better be beefy. Can be flexibly attached to any other squad in the detachment that has a place for it.

Standard squad: Pack of Hero Units. If we're going to be able to afford these, they'd better be pretty cheap on the "hero" scale, but this is a convenient way to, say, insert a mix of exotic weapons to stiffen our troops without requiring the exotics as a cost on one of our standard troop types. All those plans that said "and one guy in Ithilmar, with a Starblaster" should be looking here: this is how we should actually do that without fucking our logistics.

Command Squad: How we get the Detachment and Warhost bonuses we were voting for last vote.
 
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The next major choice in command is how you choose to deploy each unit type. There are three possible paths to take. The first is to deploy a Leader Unit as a Single Unit. While this results in a single Leader Unit occupying an entire organizational slot, it allows them to be freely attached to an 'extra' squad of Elites or Headquarters squad as a bodyguard unit if desired.
Just to clarify, this 'extra' squad effectively occupies the organisational slot of the Leader Unit and doesn't take up their own Elite/HQ slot? If not, I'm not sure why they're 'extra', beyond Eldar just kind of being a bunch of divas by default.

The second option is to deploy units as Standard Squads, which may contain up to eight of a single homogenous unit type. Standard squads can either operate as a normal squad, or be broken up to be attached to other units in a Detachment (though they still occupy the relevant organizational slot); this is generally recommended to be restrained to 'lower level' Leader Units which are relatively easy to train in large numbers.
If the number of members in the Standard Squad is less than or greater than the number of other units in the Detachment, can we preference which squads get more than one attachment (if that's possible) or get skipped? If we use two organisational slots on Standard Squads of different types and break both up, can we attach two different leader types to the same squad?

So, we want two types of command squads:
1. Detachment command squad with Force Commander and Warleader
2. Warhost command squad with all four commander types.
3. Maybe independent force commander for attaching to existing hearthguard veteran Squads (our current HQ unit)
We (may) want a lot more than that.
Standard Squads for Force Commander and Warmaster, Single Units for Warsinger Captain and Warseer Commander, possibly a Command Squad with Force Commander+Warmaster+Warsinger Captain but not Warseer Commander (in case of Seer AP bottlenecks), Standard Squad of Warseer Commander (if we can get enough of them)...
Edit: Maybe a Command Squad with Force Commander+Warmaster+Warseer Commander but not Warsinger Captain, for forces intended to use simple tactics like "go to this position and HOLD!" or "blow open this bunker and kill everything inside" that need to do it as well as possible.

Trainings time wise i think we are looking at single units to not get even more hammered by the trainings times ?
It depends on how many we can train at once and how much each costs, which... we have no idea.
 
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Standard squad: Pack of Hero Units. If we're going to be able to afford these, they'd better be pretty cheap on the "hero" scale, but this is a convenient way to, say, insert a mix of exotic weapons to stiffen our troops without requiring the exotics as a cost on one of our standard troop types.

More like it's a full squad made up of a single command type (or at least somewhat reads like it ?)

The problem here is that pretty much all of our command units have 2 turns trainings time.

The option outright says it only advisable for leader units that can be trained fast.
Which at 2 turns per i think is not the case anymore.
 
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More like it's a full squad made up of a single command type (or at least somewhat reads like it ?)

The problem here is that pretty much all of our command units have 2 turns trainings time.

The option outright says it only advisable for units that can be trained fast.
Which at 2 turns per i think is not the case anymore.
Considering the training time range was from 1-5 turns, 2 turns could reasonably be considered fast.
Whether fast enough, well...
 
More like it's a full squad made up of a single command type.
Standard squads can either operate as a normal squad, or be broken up to be attached to other units in a Detachment (though they still occupy the relevant organizational slot)
It's both.

Having all expensive officers makes using them for hero units on this level harder, but I don't think we should be assuming we've put it out of reach entirely; two turns means we get half as many as one-turn heroes, but that seems more likely to be the difference between "we need to save this trick for our heaviest warhosts" versus "we do this as common practice."
 
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Okay, I have been fooded, let's see here.

Just confirming, but a Warhost Command unit applies its Warhost And it's Detachment bonuses to the entire Warhost? Is that correct @Mechanis ?

Or does it exclusively activate their Warhost Powers and we need Detachment Command units for Detachment Powers?
 
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