I feel like Graviton Thrusters are perhaps the worst weapons we can use against Orks. While the armor and shield penetration of the Graviton Thrusters are perhaps the best in the galaxy Ork ships are to chaotic to effectively use it. On a human ship we can target specific systems but Ork ships are so random and disorderly we cannot do that. Plus, due to the WAAAAGH field Ork ships might just shrug when taking a shot that should cripple the entire ship.
I was thinking of putting another type of weapon, maybe a couple of suncannons instead of the thrusters. Use them to melt parts of the ship, which would weaken it further to implosion/combi-gravs.

Maybe:
2 starcaster mega lances
2 combi-grav in the heavy slots
2 sunncannons and a singularity projector in the regular weapon slots.
 
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from refitting the remaining assault Ketch's we'll regain another 37000, putting us at over 60000. if we replace the standard starlance with another weaponand are converting heavy weapons slots into a special weapon that gives back 9600. that plus per turn gains across the entire process likely giving us another 12k mean we would have around 80000 to work with. just to clarify things.
I'm counting 68 Assault Ketches left, which would be 30,700 crystals.
So we might be ok for Starcrystals, but I still don't like the limitations three Mega-Lances applies to the rest of the design (systems and Weapons).
Otoh why would we even build cruisers. They're the same 4ap to start building and we've got enough docks that build time isn't much of an issue. Let's just do a battleship for every role.
Build time is still an issue because the longer they take to build the more AP it costs, especially if we can't batch build them like the Nettles or Ketches.
 
Otoh why would we even build cruisers. They're the same 4ap to start building and we've got enough docks that build time isn't much of an issue. Let's just do a battleship for every role.
because cruisers and light cruisers can be done in batches, made properly. we can do a batch of 2 carracks and they'll finish in 5 turns. a caravel light cruiser finishes in 1 turn.

meanwhile a single combat brig takes 6 turns, and that's without proper defenses.
Starting any capital ship is 4 BAP, in order to use up just 30 of those docks you'd need 120BAP. For reference we have 15BAP right now and every turn we are constantly swamped with projects that demand them.

This isn't even factoring in escort vessel construction.

We very far away from being able to use our even a fraction of our docks regularly for ship construction and by that time our exotic resource production should have also grown a lot.
it's also a little over 240 AP for all our refits. 140 AP just for the ones to damaged to field currently. once we have all of our damaged vessels operational, we'll likely build half a dozen carrier vessels of some kind over the course of several turns before we finish refits to be able to field more interceptor strike craft in defense of our ships.
I think we should diversify the damage types. Gravity thrusters are "more of the same" tight beam, deep damage.

Maybe use the heavy weapon slots for combi gravs? We should have the technology by the time we're making refits for battleships.
no, their tight beam, penetration damage, to megalancers wide beam raw destruction. our battleships are mainly going to be at the back of center of a fleet formation in any major battle. in the role we are discussing Megalances would target the enemies largest, toughest ships while graviton thrusters softened up other enemy capitols for carracks or Ketch's to kill with their heavy star lance.
The Mangonel is a light combat unit equipped with a Heavy Las-Lance, a light torpedo battery, and a Combi-Grav Bombard Weapons Battery, as well as super-heavy missile launchers for close combat. A Flare Shield and Pulse Shield protect the ship, while a pair of Aethersails provide propulsion.
over 500 Combi-Grav bombard guns in their frigates.
The Catapult is a generalist, equipped with a battery of naval lances, Combi-grav Bombards, and light torpedoes, a heavy array of lascannons for point defense, and a single hanger. Pulse and Flare shields protect the ship in combat, while four Aethersails make the vessel extremely fleet for its size.
204 Combi-Grav bombards in their light cruisers.
The Trebuchet is a general purpose heavy warship, equipped with a battery of Heavy Las-Lances, a heavy Torpedo battery, and a battery of Combi-Grav Bombards, as well as quad barrel Turbo-Laser Destructors and Lascannons for point defense. A small transport Bay and two hangers add support capabilities, while a Flare Shield and Pulse Shield protect the ship. Three Aethersails provide propulsion, making the vessel quite nimble.
and 28 Combi-Grav in their battle cruisers.

so somewhere around 750 combi gravs used by naval vessels under our command, even if they aren't used by our ships directly. I think adding adding 160 graviton thruster lances, or if we altered our 2 standard weapon slots to one heavy on the combat brig and settled for a single reinforcement, 48 heavy graviton thruster lance, is far more diversity than more combi-grav.
2 starcaster mega lances
2 combi-grav in the heavy slots
2 grav thruster lances and a singularity projector in the regular weapon slots.
we likely want to put at least one reinforcement of our battleship against AOE damage with the conversion field being slot heavy, so I'd say we should swap at least one standard weapon or heavy weapon to system slots if we are doing a webway keeping model. otherwise, we need to consider other options to moving our warhosts around in order to drop webgates on our combat brigs, which I'm not against. it's not like we'll have a lot to deploy this century.


honestly designing planetary assault carrack for the job and just refitting half a dozen regular carracks between turns 10 and 20 would probably serv our needs for probably until some point past turn 30.
 
As you can see even my super expensive triple Starcaster design is probably only ~10% more expensive than our current Brig so I wouldn't expect a significant increase in build time.
Don't know how it affects the percentage but I'm fairly certain we have to build the strikecraft separately from the ships.

Which would mean we probably want to start working on refitting our current strikecraft and building up our reserves some more before we start building any carriers.
 
Don't know how it affects the percentage but I'm fairly certain we have to build the strikecraft separately from the ships.

Which would mean we probably want to start working on refitting our current strikecraft and building up our reserves some more before we start building any carriers.
I think we would just make a strikecraft foundry.
 
Are missile launchers the same as torpedoes when it comes to striking above their weight class?
Or should we just stick to grav weapons?
 
Which would mean we probably want to start working on refitting our current strikecraft and building up our reserves some more before we start building any carriers.
Yeah.

I think, as much as I'd prefer otherwise, we're not going to have the psy-scopes to justify mounting Fatesheer Cannon on our interceptors. As awesome as that would be, we're going to want them in numbers, which probably means "no exotics."

I'd like to budget in developing missile launchers for our interceptors, but that takes BAP rather than Seeker work, so it's harder to justify; otherwise I'd just call for a mix of Suncannon and Grav Thrusters with a Holo-Field and Grav Shield for a superiority fighter.

I think we would just make a strikecraft foundry.
That's how we'd build them, no question. But we really do need a redesign; our existing fighter doesn't have defenses and uses exotic weapons, and we need to fix at least one of those.
 
I suspect that any new Carrack we design is going to take slightly longer to build than the current one.

The current one while expensive in exotic resources due to being exclusively armed with exotic weapons also isn't actually using that many weapon slots with only half of them in use so the NEP cost isn't actually all that high.

While the Heavy Starlance battery is pretty expensive clocking in at 20NEP it's only got a single one of those and the Fatetwisters are actually pretty cheap for their capabilities since 5NEP is the same as a Spike Cannon or Suncannon and is cheaper than any of the Grav-Weapons.

Here is a cost breakdown between our current Battle Carrack and a Cheap design that uses no Exotic Resources but uses all the Slots:
Battle Carrack
• 1x Heavy Starlance (350SC 20NEP)
• 3x Fatetwister Cannon Weapons Batteries (15NEP)
• 1x Fatesheer Cannon Close-In Weapons Battery (48NEP)
• 3x Æthersails
• 1x Plasma Drive
Total: 83NEP

For the PD since the Cruiser's Fatesheer CIWB has 16 guns to an escort's 10 guns I am assuming a similar 60% increase in guns for the PD so a cruiser's PD is probably 96 guns.

[] Sunray Class Cruiser (8 System | 6 Weapon Batteries | 2 Heavy Weapon Batteries)
-[] 2x Heavy Las-Lance batteries 2HW slots (16NEP)
-[] 5x Suncannon batteries 5W slots (25NEP)
-[] Trade 1W slot for 1S slot
-[] 1x Suncannon PD 1S Slot (96*30/100=~29NEP)
-[] 1x Grav-Shield (12NEP) 2S slots
-[] 1x Holo-Field (9NEP) 1S slot
-[] 3x Aethersails 3S slots
-[] 1x Plasma thruster 2S slots
Total: 16+30+29+12+9=91NEP
As you can see even when using a very NEP conservative build limited to Suncannons and Heavy Las-Lance's a Carrack redesign nets us a ~9% increase in NEP costs (83/91=~0.91).

Considering the fact that most of the proposed Carrack redesigns included lots of Grav-Weapons we're likely looking at a much bigger difference in NEP cost.

Don't know how it affects the percentage but I'm fairly certain we have to build the strikecraft separately from the ships.

Which would mean we probably want to start working on refitting our current strikecraft and building up our reserves some more before we start building any carriers.
A bit of a difference, without factoring in strikecraft the triple Starcaster Brig is ~14% more expensive NEP wise ( (303-85)/(339-85)=~0.86 ).

That said, this is assuming we continue building our current strikecraft which isn't ideal since each one of those uses two vehicle scale Starlances (about 11k Starcrystals is eaten up by all our strikecraft) and has no Holo-Fields or Grav-Shields.

IRC replacing the Starlances with Suncannons/Fatesevers dropped the cost by a bit even after factoring in the Holo-Fields and Grav-Shields.

Edit:
Here's the Bright Eagle cost math if we ditched the Starlances for 1 Suncannon and Fatesever plus Holo-Fields and Grav-Shields:
Bright Eagle
Equipment:
• 2 Starlance (Vehicle) (200EP)
• 2 Lascannon (Heavy) (6EP)
• 1 Bomb Bay
Cost:
• 469 (1 Fighter)

Suncannon (Vehicle) = 30EP
Fatesever = 60EP
Holo-Field (Vehicle) = 18EP
Grav-Shield (Vehicle) = 30EP

469-200+60+30+18+30=407EP
Even a 2nd Grav-Shield wouldn't roll back the cost reduction from replacing the Starlances.
 
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As you can see even when using a very NEP conservative build limited to Suncannons and Heavy Las-Lance's a Carrack redesign nets us a ~9% increase in NEP costs (83/91=~0.91).

The issue there is that you're completely dismissing the Exotic cost there and treating it as a non-entity.

Again, if the system seems to suggest "Why not just make everything Exotic", then chances are there's something we're missing, or everyone would be doing it. We're good, but we shouldn't be "It's more economical to just spam battleships than it is to build any amount of Cruisers because apparently the time works out either way."

If the numbers appear to say that, then chances are there's something we're missing, or else nobody would deploy anything smaller than Battleship in battle.

A 9% cost hike on NEP in exchange for spending half a turn's total Starcrystal supply and a full turn of Psy-Scopes per hull is not the "It's more cost effective" reaction, especially since we ideally want to build ships in parallel when we can to get time to cost-effectiveness.

That is why I keep saying "Our core, baseline ships should not be dependent on Exotics".
 
The issue there is that you're completely dismissing the Exotic cost there and treating it as a non-entity.

Again, if the system seems to suggest "Why not just make everything Exotic", then chances are there's something we're missing, or everyone would be doing it. We're good, but we shouldn't be "It's more economical to just spam battleships than it is to build any amount of Cruisers because apparently the time works out either way."

If the numbers appear to say that, then chances are there's something we're missing, or else nobody would deploy anything smaller than Battleship in battle.

A 9% cost hike on NEP in exchange for spending half a turn's total Starcrystal supply and a full turn of Psy-Scopes per hull is not the "It's more cost effective" reaction, especially since we ideally want to build ships in parallel when we can to get time to cost-effectiveness.

That is why I keep saying "Our core, baseline ships should not be dependent on Exotics".
One reason why they dont make everything exotic is they might not know how to make exotics; in OTL things like Brightlances, Darklances, Shuriken Catapults, and Shard rifles, are attempts by the Aeldari and Drukharii to figure out how to make stuff like Star Lances and Fatecasters.
 
The issue there is that you're completely dismissing the Exotic cost there and treating it as a non-entity.

Again, if the system seems to suggest "Why not just make everything Exotic", then chances are there's something we're missing, or everyone would be doing it. We're good, but we shouldn't be "It's more economical to just spam battleships than it is to build any amount of Cruisers because apparently the time works out either way."

If the numbers appear to say that, then chances are there's something we're missing, or else nobody would deploy anything smaller than Battleship in battle.

A 9% cost hike on NEP in exchange for spending half a turn's total Starcrystal supply and a full turn of Psy-Scopes per hull is not the "It's more cost effective" reaction, especially since we ideally want to build ships in parallel when we can to get time to cost-effectiveness.

That is why I keep saying "Our core, baseline ships should not be dependent on Exotics".
I'm wasn't dismissing the exotics cost, I was pointing out that a redesign with all the weapons slots used will probably take a little longer to build.

Note how at no point did I actually advocate for keeping the current Carrack design, just tempering peoples assumption that a new Carrack would still only take 3 turns to build like the current one.

Edit:
The only ship I would support heavy exotics investment into are battleships, and only because of their incredibly long build time.
We have literally spent less in quest time so far than what would be needed for one of our current barebones Brig design to be completed.
It is currently Turn 4 and if we had started building a Combat Brig all the way back in Turn 1 we would still be 3 Turns away from being able to use it at the start of Turn 7.
 
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989.M29 | Special Event: The Aeldmoot | Pre-meeting Meetings, Final
For the first part of the final day before the Moot itself, you cast your net wide, seeking knowledge of one of the greatest—and most terrible—legacies of the Aeldari to remain: the Talismans of Vaul.
Perhaps the most terrible weapon unleashed in the War in Heaven that remains to this day, for they, at least, are neither easy to use to their greatest potential, nor capable of acting without direction, nor harmful merely by their existence.

Merely the most powerful mobile Empyrean-rending array ever constructed.

Merely.


To be continued in Sidestory: Dark Legacies


For the second portion of the day, you made yourself available for others—and while a few short meetings amounted to little of substance, one was of rather greater significance: the Dragonlord Asarnil of Charnac, one of three to attend the Moot in person in the company of Durran Fellwinter. And it is principally Amar-Ithil with whom he intends to meet, for Charnac's Worldseer has Seen glimpses of a time-that-wasn't, and through it, a glimpse at one remove of what he can only call a nightmare. And whilst that time is not this time—the vision was clear enough that it was set many centuries hence yet named aloud the Fall as occurring but some four decades prior—even the possibility has roused Charnac as none else, and now Asarnil seeks to rouse all the Dragonlords into a Moot of their own, to speak of the future—For he finds it clear that they can no longer rely on isolation alone to protect them. What may come of this is unclear, yet the mere existence of the very meeting you both now attend gives him hope his own quest might indeed be managed.

What will come of this remains to be seen…

Finally and lastly you spoke with the Harlequins, and foremost thanked their aid in arranging this meeting—Indeed, it might have been more difficult to cast a net so wide as has occurred without their aid—and asked if they had perhaps any last minute advice.

The troupe-master simply laughed, and stated that merely being oneself would be more than enough.

They did, however, offer that even as you yourselves are in good odor with the Fool's servants, one Aerellian Lightningblade is most definitely not. Not, perhaps, to the point where they would, ah, intervene, but certainly that worthy can expect none but the most necessary aid from those who serve the Laughing God. Aerellian, it seems, has a talent for making enemies who don't quite dislike him enough to outright attack him.

Given what measure of the man you have at this point, you are not at all surprised the man was foolish—or perhaps overconfident—enough to think he could annoy the servants of the Laughing God and get away with it. You are certain that the humiliation he will doubtless be in for come the morrow is but the first phase of their revenge…

For the first day, you first sounded out other Adaptionists, discovering the Average craftworlds of Kher-Ys and Muirgaythh are standouts, the former working to produce Spirit Stones artificially while the latter seeks to recreate a Necron technology to deny the Ruinous Gods their servants—and perhaps sap their power, as well. You also met with the Survivalists, with whom you are currently seen in good light, who are supportive of more widespread and regular cooperation between the Craftworlds on critical matters. Finally, you met with Durran Fellwinter of Saim-Hann and learned that it seems your grievance with Biel-Tan is no isolated incident, and that they have already added the complaints of several other lesser Craftworlds to their own from a handful of Exodite worlds. It seems that the good Archon thought he could get away with acquiring many relics and treasures at gunpoint whilst the majority of the other Craftworlds were distracted. Which suggests the intention for the attacks seen on you was to acquire either your most advanced exotic weapons… or perhaps the Forge of Vaul you possess, which may well be the last in the galaxy still functional. Or even both.

On the second day, you canvassed the Independent Craftworlds, of whom Stel-Uit and Lal'c-Tann may be possible to draw into your sphere of influence relatively easily. Also of note is Nacretinei, who stated an intention to join the Moot but with the party of their ally Stel'iy-Rann, yet have seemingly vanished shortly thereafter.

(Quest Chain A Pearl Without Price is now available)
You met also with the Asuryani, and have learned that whilst it is likely that your two factions will not ever be friends so long as Autarch Tyrellian Kulkessrin leads them, it is likely that your factions will need not be opposed following the conclusion of the Moot.

Lastly, you approached Iyanden about the poor conduct of Biel-Tan... and, it seems, are not the first to do so. That relationship is not yet broken, or even perhaps in serious danger—yet strained it definitely is, and you suspect that Iyanden will be, if nothing else, keeping a much closer eye on their partner than they might have otherwise, from now on.

For the final day, you sought knowledge of the Talismans of Vaul—particularly the last known locations of the Talismans themselves and of their control-mechanisms—and found some. Though the news is… mixed.
Second, you spoke with several others, meetings and introductions which you may follow up more properly after the Moot proper, but most importantly learned that Dragonlord Asarnil of Charnac works to bring the Exodites to a grand Moot of their own, to speak of the future—though what will come of that, you cannot say.
Lastly you spoke with the Harlequins, and learned both that your own role in catalyzing this meeting—and actions before then—has earnt you a rather long line of credit with the Laughing God's servants—and that Aerellian Lightningblade has not only wholly expended his own, but managed to annoy the Laughing god's servants.
If he wasn't such a boor( Militant Ass) , you might even feel slightly sorry for him…



Stand By…

 
I'd like to budget in developing missile launchers for our interceptors, but that takes BAP rather than Seeker work, so it's harder to justify; otherwise I'd just call for a mix of Suncannon and Grav Thrusters with a Holo-Field and Grav Shield for a superiority fighter.
I'd actually argue that our new Conversion Field might be better for strikecraft than the Grav-Shield. It trades effectiveness against Grav-weapons for being better against explosions/AoE (Pressure Resistance), and of the two the latter is going to be a more common threat for our strikecraft to face.

We should have enough slots for it and Holo-field as well, considering even our interceptor chassis has 7.
 
I'm wasn't dismissing the exotics cost, I was pointing out that a redesign with all the weapons slots used will probably take a little longer to build.

Note how at no point did I actually advocate for keeping the current Carrack design, just tempering peoples assumption that a new Carrack would still only take 3 turns to build like the current one.

Well, let's take a look at that actually.

Assault Ketches look like this.

Assault Ketch Statblock said:
Equipment:
• 1x Heavy Starlance
• 1x Fatetwister Cannon Weapons Battery
• 1x Starlance Close-In Weapons Battery
• 1x Æthersail
• 2x Plasma Thrusters
Construction Time: 2 Turns
Special Resource Requirement:
• 800 Starcrystals
• 50 Fatebender Psy-Scopes

Two turns each, cannot be built in parallel, cost of 25 NEP for the main guns, I don't know how the subsystems shake into it and I can't find the reference offhand.

Now, here's the War Ketch redesign

War Ketch Startblock said:
• 1x Heavy Starlance
• 1x Fatetwister Cannon Weapons Battery
• 1x Lascannon Point Defense Weapon Battery
• Holo-Field
• 1x Grav-Shield Generator
• 2x Æthersail
• 1x Plasma Thrusters
Construction Time:
• 2 Turns (single ship)
• 3 Turns (batch of 2)
• 4 Turns (batch of 3)
• 5 Turns (batch of 4)

Major difference is that we trade out one of the Plasma Thrusters for another Aethersail, and add a Holo-Field and a Grav-Shield. Again, I can't find where the NEP costs for each of these are, but after the first turn tax, every additional one we build in a batch takes another turn it seems, up to a total of 4 started in parallel which takes 4 turns. If anything, the War Ketch should be more costly in NEP, but...

In turns of time effectiveness? The important thing to keep in mind is that once we've started a build, it goes on it's own until it's done. It doesn't eat up extra BAP I don't think aside from the general "Keep the docks running" cost. Every additional War Ketch after the first one is effectively produced at half price in time investment.

Which means that, ideally, if we're not going to be in a life or death war imminently, we want to do as large a batch as we can in any given stretch. Because building 4 Assault Ketches would take us 8 turns if we did them one by one. In contrast, building 4 War Ketches when we did them in a parallel batch costs us 5 turns of time, saving us 15 years despite a War Ketch presumably costing more in everything but Exotics.

Realistically, we don't even want to mass produce War Ketches though, outside of our refits. Because the very incentives that let us parallel-build them means that we need to spend a much larger overlay of material to field them. 350 Starcrystals and 50 Psy-Scopes is nasty but affordable if you're only doing them one at a time.

1,400 Starcrystals and 200 Psy-Scopes on the other hand is almost two turns of production on both exotics, just for a single squadron of escorts! I wouldn't be surprised too if there's a "Fiddliness" penalty involved either, because comparing our Lance Cutters (2 Las Lances, 2 Aethersails) to our Nettles (3x Spike Cannons, Lascannon PD, 2 Aethersails, Holofields), on paper, this should be expensive as fuck compared to Lance Cutters. And it is more expensive.

But not by as much as you'd think.

2 turns to produce a set of 5 Lance Cutters, which are weak, incredibly fragile destroyers with zero self-defense ability beside Going Fast.

2 turns to produce a set of 3 Nettles, which are just as fast, dramatically better armed, carry Point Defense which lets them serve as anti-torpedo and anti-fighter screens for heavier warships, and even have a Holofield to boot! For something that should cost probably close to twice as much on paper, Nettles only seem to actually be 130% the cost of a Lance Cutter, which tells me there's things we don't see yet.

TL;DR: NEP isn't free, but it's a lot cheaper than Exotics, especially when you scale things up to industrial quantities.
 
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They did, however, offer that even as you yourselves are in good odor with the Fool's servants, one Aerellian Lightningblade is most definitely not. Not, perhaps, to the point where they would, ah, intervene, but certainly that worthy can expect none but the most necessary aid from those who serve the Laughing God. Aerellian, it seems, has a talent for making enemies who don't quite dislike him enough to outright attack him.

Given what measure of the man you have at this point, you are not at all surprised the man was foolish—or perhaps overconfident—enough to think he could annoy the servants of the Laughing God and get away with it. You are certain that the humiliation he will doubtless be in for come the morrow is but the first phase of their revenge…
I'm honestly kinda impressed at how many people Aerellian has managed to piss off in just a few turns.
 
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I'd actually argue that our new Conversion Field might be better for strikecraft than the Grav-Shield.
If we had taken compact Conversion Shields, I'd probably agree with you. Maybe even if we'd simply had neither Compact nor Bulky.

We took Bulky Conversion Shields. We're not going to be using them on anything but infantry for a long time.
 
Lightningblades theme song when he gets tomato juice dumped on his head at the moot.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEbE3fGfF-o

Performed by the Troupe of Secret Vengeance.

Also nice to see that the Harlequins like the cut of our jib.
We are Vau-Vulkesh. Our jib was carved with only the finest of chisels and the weightiest of hammers, painstakingly, by a hundred grand-master carpenters since before the Fall, from a timber that once grew by the moat just outside of the Palace of Asuyran himself.

Of course he likes it.
 
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If we had taken compact Conversion Shields, I'd probably agree with you. Maybe even if we'd simply had neither Compact nor Bulky.

We took Bulky Conversion Shields. We're not going to be using them on anything but infantry for a long time.
That's the thing. I'm not aware of anything we'd want to put in our System slots other than defenses, so unless Bulky CF takes up more than 5 System slots there should still be space for one.
 
and that Aerellian Lightningblade has not only wholly expended his own, but managed to annoy the Laughing god's servants.
If he wasn't such a boor( Militant Ass) , you might even feel slightly sorry for him…

Did someone stick an Idiot Stick up the guy's behind? Because that's the only explaination I can find for such combination of deliberate obstinancy and informed idiocy.
 
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