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A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

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Karugus said:
When we reforge our souls, we will literally no longer be Asuryani. We will reject the Paths. We will be finding our own way to almost certainly mitigate the Curse long before we can feasibly excise it. And yes, Vaul fucking died. We happen to still be alive regardless of your goalpost shifting.

The Ishari worship Isha. One of two gods of the Pantheon fully intact even if she is bound and reduced. They're absolutely Eldar, but we're going to have to go even further and we cannot possibly take the same steps as they did because there is no Vaul left besides at most scraps from Slaanesh's table. To use Vaul, a god that has already been eaten, and already explicitly subordinated to Slaanesh through right of conquest is batshit insane. Slaanesh has already used that connection to exterminated a 5th of our Craftworld in the Fall. So long as Slaanesh has any claim to the Pheonix Court, trying to rebuild Vaul is just building another avenue for it to devour our souls. Unless we go so far as to somehow rebuild Vaul such that he rejects the authority of the Pheonix Court and in doing so completely reject ourselves.

This is not something minor, this is not just a different name, this is a fundamental cultural and religious divergence between us and the rest of the Craftworlds nearly as pronounced as the one they have with the Drukhari.

The Ishari have bound themselves to the Everqueen in a bid to avoid the pull of the Pheonix Court. Because Isha's authority in many ways precedes and coexists seperately with Asuryan's. Unless we have Vaul completely diverge from his mythic past, he cannot do the same. They're a fundamental refutation of how easy it us for us to do same because Isha is in a completely different situation than Vaul no matter the amount of hoops we jump through.
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We are already not Asuryani. We rejected the paths of Asuryan. We are Volkhari.

Your thinking of Aeldari. Which is what our species is called.

And Isha was occupied enough that we didn't even realize she was alive until the nature of the Flaw was revealed to us.

Mechanis said:
Notably relavent to this discussion, Ynnaed is very much not Asuryan. The conditions in which the Aeldari gods originally arose are as different from eachother as Earth is from Jupiter, even if you attemped such a thing, it simply wouldn't work, because the Chaos Gods weren't a thing yet. Which means you probably end up getting Vashtorr in a funny hat and grocho marx glasses rather than Vaul 2.0 anyway, even if you were willing to try In Universe.
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What do we need to attempt such a thing and dodge Vashtorr inevitably showing up?
 
random_npc said:
yeah, like I said, the equilvent of a few specks of blood of a being that can in the right circumstances, come back from a single still living cell. If the new being would be Vauls reincarnation or his Heir taking up their fathers mantle is yet to be determined, and quite possible will depend on how its seen given how much perception shapes the warp.
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Again, we just had trillions of Eldar, and hundreds of millions of loved ones at least- eaten and eternally damned because their souls were plugged into the Eldar gods. Whatever weak and fragile thing we make is as much a glaring vulnerability as it is a potential source of strength. Slaanesh has conquered and devoured Vaul once, there's absolutely no reason it couldn't devour a weaker and more fragile Vaul once again. Khaine's mythos now enshrines that he fought Slaanesh and couldn't be conquered by Slaanesh nor Khorne. Isha resists Nurgle in his seat of power without wavering. Cegorach has escaped the clutches of Chaos in their triumph and forever will. Vaul lost. He cannot draw on a narrative to protect himself from Slaanesh, and Slaanesh can emphatically draw on a narrative to consume him.

The connection to the Gods has lead to the greatest loss in life of the Eldar people possible. That connection remains a yoke on the soul of literally every Eldar still alive barring perhaps the Ishari- and I've already mentioned Isha is in a completely different situation to Vaul. The connection is a festering wound that's far too prone to infection given the circumstances.

Professor Vesca said:
We are already not Asuryani. We rejected the paths of Asuryan. We are Volkhari.

Your thinking of Aeldari. Which is what our species is called.

And Isha was occupied enough that we didn't even realize she was alive until the nature of the Flaw was revealed to us.
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The paths of Asuryan aren't even really a thing yet, Vulkhari would mean people of Vaul but that doesn't mean we're conciously rejecting the Pheonix Court the way trying to shift Vaul out of Slaanesh's domains would require. Even we still recognize Vaul as a member of Asuryan's Court. It's absurd to try and pretend that resurrecting of one specific god of the Pantheon and by extension demoting all the others wouldn't be a huge cultural transition and it would absolutely be a departure from our current culture.
 
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random_npc said:
to be clear, does this mean if we tried to stoke the last embers of Vaul into a new god, the only option would be to create a god that is an heir to his mantle, or that the entire approach is fundamentally flawed?
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Given slannesh has currently Eaten and Utterly incorporated Vaul's narrative, claiming dominion over them through right of "om nom nom's", I Think its likly that any attempt to create an Inheritor to vauls mantle will have a direct link to slannesh in the same way the Eldar soul does right now because the Narrative that its laying claim on is already taken and being used by a much bigger, stronger warp presence, And I predict horrific results.

Ynead does not have this issue, Having a Narrative unconnected to the previous Phoenix court and as such operates outside of the narrative claim that slannesh has on the eldar.

EDIT: IF we want to make a New God/Goddess, Who WON'T be horrifically subsumed and/or sockpuppted by Slannesh the second they become even a glimmer of potential in the warp, they would need to narrativly unconnected to the old pheonix court. That means They CANNOT be vaul, Because being Vaul Means that are narratively not only of the courts, But are eaten by slanesh. We would need to Make a New god/Goddess, and if we ever wanted to reclaim Vauls Mantle, That new goddes would need to essentially Carve it kicking and screaming out of slanesh's bloated warp presnce through Right of arms, forging a narrative claim that isn't subsumable.
 
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We cannot afford a load bearing god, even the Ishari are completely doomed if Isha succumbs to Nurgle. And Isha is probably far safer than any god we could make or forge at this point. Worship the gods, honor the gods, mourn their passing, and cauterize the weeping wound they've left. Better to be a weak Deva in our own rights- to live, die, and fall on our merits as individuals than to rebuild the backdoor that has led to incalculable suffering. Better to weld shut that connection and better seal our souls away from the Dark Prince than give it a singular target to undermine and in doing so grasp all of our souls all the tighter.

Better to accept the amputation than leave ourselves caught in the jaws of the trap with delusions of security.
 
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frostgiant said:
EDIT: IF we want to make a New God/Goddess, Who WON'T be horrifically subsumed and/or sockpuppted by Slannesh the second they become even a glimmer of potential in the warp, they would need to narrativly unconnected to the old pheonix court. That means They CANNOT be vaul, Because being Vaul Means that are narratively not only of the courts, But are eaten by slanesh. We would need to Make a New god/Goddess, and if we ever wanted to reclaim Vauls Mantle, That new goddes would need to essentially Carve it kicking and screaming out of slanesh's bloated warp presnce through Right of arms, forging a narrative claim that isn't subsumable.
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we just found out that Slannesh's claim to the phoenix throne is not ironclad, and has a few major weaknesses. Breaking would be feasible, hard as hell, but feasible, though hard as hell but feasible kind of sums up every option we have to solve these curses.


Karugus said:
We cannot afford a load bearing god, even the Ishari are completely doomed if Isha succumbs to Nurgle. And Isha is probably far safer than any god we could make or forge at this point. Worship the gods, honor the gods, mourn their passing, and cauterize the weeping wound they've left. Better to be a weak Deva in our own rights- to live, die, and fall on our merits as individuals than to rebuild the backdoor that has led to incalculable suffering. Better to weld shut that connection and better seal our souls away from the Dark Prince than give it a singular target to undermine and in doing so grasp all of our souls all the tighter.

Better to accept the amputation than leave ourselves caught in the jaws of the trap with delusions of security.
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a fair point, the fall is an argument for some sort of decentralized system, but on the other hand the galaxy is a dark enough place that the power centralization brings might be needed. I suspect that there will be a fair few votes about what we try and shape ours souls into over the course of this quest.
 
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random_npc said:
we just found out that Slannesh's claim to the phoenix throne is not ironclad, and has a few major weaknesses. Breaking would be feasible, hard as hell, but feasible, though hard as hell but feasible kind of sums up every option we have to solve these curses.
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Its breakable, VIA certain avenues of attack. Such as Isha Predating it, Or a God being Born outside of it. But if we try to Form a god who is still connected to the narrative of the throne, Slanneshs claim IS strong enough that they would be ablet to RIP a newly formed god a new one because they would lack teh narrative weight to fight of the advantage such a connection gives them, Hence why I specified that their Narrative Needs to not be connected to the throne whil they are being born, Until they are strng enough to stake their own claim.

Just Because the They/Them disasters Claim on the throne isn't Ironclad, DOESN'T mean it isn't still a strong claim that can only be attack in certain manners. It still would give them More then a strong enough narrative claim to Eviscerate any Newly born/formed God that tries to claim narrative inheritance from any part of the Pheonix court.
 
So given all this nonsense I guess I can tick "Start a religious schism" off of the things to do today.

I'm just gonna step out of this debate though because I don't feel like it's really going anywhere.
 
We really shouldn't be caught up in wild ambitions like this. Would it be nice to have Vaul back? Yes. Could we develop a way to bring him back? Well... Bringing someone back from the dead is hard. Bringing a god to life is considered to be somewhat harder. Both are even harder to do properly without things going terribly wrong and we would have to do all of this all at the same time. Good luck accomplishing all of that in the next deca-millennium or so.
 
I personaly see Vaul issue as having 2 possible anwsers:
1. Vaul survived in his prison if Khaine 's claim on him was stronger than bitch's, but the whole end of the world cut off him from us. Thus we need to honor his lessons and act in histed
2. He is dead dead and while we should honor his lessons trying to forcibly revive him would be sacrelige and stupid when Slanneash (and friends) isn't kicked out of our souls.
 
Note, Shrines to Vaul still work, while Shrines to all the other non-Ceogorach gods very rapidly get subsumed by Chaos.

Because Creation is the one thing anathema to all of the Chaos Gods, Slaanesh could only destroy Vaul, not subsume him Could devour him but not subsume his themes. Not a single one of them can straight up make something that can exist on its own, the best they can do is take something that someone else made and twist it to better fit their themes, but that's not Vaul's way, he's a builder, not a corrupter.

He's toast, because he didn't have a strong enough independent claim to stand alone without the Phoenix Court (And his entire narrative is getting bodied by nasty gods and fucked over for his skills, so he's especially weak against it), but Slaanesh couldn't actually do shit like it does where it ate Asuryan so now it's usurped the Phoenix Court to Vaul's domain, so it just ate him and digested his raw god-power instead of just taking it into itself.
 
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kinda missing our whole thing where we are saying that by reforging our souls, kicking Slaanesh to the curb in the process by removing there work from them, a new vaul will naturally form as we continue to follow our traditions and his teaching and integrate them into our post fall life style.

this not a bunch of people saying "let's beat Slaanesh by reviving Vaul", it's a bunch of people saying "given the nature of Aeldari gods, once we have beaten Slaanesh by whatever means we identified as viable, the reforging of our soul will eventually lead to a new Vaul forming to assume the role of the old one." No one is advocating doing anything that wasn't already on our agenda, just pointing out a plausible positive effect of the method we chose to overcome Slaanesh's curse.
 
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Mechanis said:
while godlike entities are generally those which do not use it, such as the C'tan or the Tyranid Hivemind.
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I thought the Nids were psykers? Their Synapse Creatures definitely are.
Mechanis said:
God-constructs, meanwhile, are deliberate creations of Godsmithing, a psychic discipline effectively lost to the galaxy with the disappearance of the Old Ones either during or after the War in Heaven
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Does that include in the depths of the Black Library or did the Aeldari Gods just figure keeping that shit away from the mortals was probably a good idea, and no everyone's either too dead or too Cegorach to actually do anything with it?
Mechanis said:
Most critical he is The Anathema: an impossibility, a paradox: a Pariah whose negative-soul is so impossibly strong it has looped back to present as a normal Psyker of godlike strength, but whose very touch is utterly in opposition to the Gods of the Immaterium.
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Does he have friendly fire for that? If he did happen to come across a God or God-Construct that he was willing to ally with, would he still burn them regardless of intent?
 
Alectai said:
Note, Shrines to Vaul still work, while Shrines to all the other non-Ceogorach gods very rapidly get subsumed by Chaos.

Because Creation is the one thing anathema to all of the Chaos Gods, Slaanesh could only destroy Vaul, not subsume him Could devour him but not subsume his themes. Not a single one of them can straight up make something that can exist on its own, the best they can do is take something that someone else made and twist it to better fit their themes, but that's not Vaul's way, he's a builder, not a corrupter.

He's toast, because he didn't have a strong enough independent claim to stand alone without the Phoenix Court (And his entire narrative is getting bodied by nasty gods and fucked over for his skills, so he's especially weak against it), but Slaanesh couldn't actually do shit like it does where it ate Asuryan so now it's usurped the Phoenix Court to Vaul's domain, so it just ate him and digested his raw god-power instead of just taking it into itself.
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I think it's a bit optimistic to assume that Chaos Gods can't Create. Slaanesh is as much about the pursuit of novelty as it is anything else, and that means seeking something new. Nurgle is constantly making new diseases. Khorne has no prohibition about new ways of violence and killing. etc. Keep in mind in the context of the setting the Ruinous Powers are just normal natural gods cast in the image of the most horrifying conflict, and that natural gods gather an incredible variety of domains and portfolios and can't lose them. Nothing about war categorically prevents creating new things, nor does their inherent futility. Building the strongest possible weapons in a desperate attempt to destroy your enemies before they destroy you ad infinitum easily fits into their own creation narratives.

I can't find a WoG of the Shrines of Vaul being completely intact, so I think you're talking about the Forges- which fair enough, but I think it's less that Creation is somehow intrinsically beyond their remit and more that our Shrine(s) of Vaul were more than just a religious institution, it was our literal primary forge. And that fits with the FoV being both something fundamentally reduced and something we can still recreate in less copies.

Randino Treviani said:
kinda missing our whole thing where we are saying that by reforging our souls, kicking Slaanesh to the curb in the process by removing there work from them, a new vaul will naturally form as we continue to follow our traditions and his teaching and integrate them into our post fall life style.

this not a bunch of people saying "let's beat Slaanesh by reviving Vaul", it's a bunch of people saying "given the nature of Aeldari gods, once we have beaten Slaanesh by whatever means we identified as viable, the reforging of our soul will eventually lead to a new Vaul forming to assume the role of the old one." No one is advocating doing anything that wasn't already on our agenda, just pointing out a plausible positive effect of the method we chose to overcome Slaanesh's curse.
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I think that's an incredible supposition and presumption. Let alone if we even *want* a new Vaul. Keep in mind reforging our soul is just guaranteed to be as effective as the Paths+Soul Stones at a bare minimum. No more no less. We can potentially do a lot more and get a lot more out of it but it does not follow that we will obviously completely excise Slaanesh in the course of reforging our souls. Let alone that Vaul will naturally reform just because we wouldn't have Slaanesh grasping at our souls. Let alone as a protector deity miraculously beyond Slaanesh's reach and with the same name and portfolio as the god still in Slaanesh's stomach with no weaknesses from such a damning association.

People are latching onto this idea because it sounds optimistic to say we repaired all the damage and got our patron deity back. Reforging something is not the same as repairing it, and the option was implicitly a radical departure rather than a miraculous fix.
 
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Karugus said:
I think it's a bit optimistic to assume that Chaos Gods can't Create. Slaanesh is as much about the pursuit of novelty as it is anything else, and that means seeking something new. Nurgle is constantly making new diseases. Khorne has no prohibition about new ways of violence and killing. etc. Keep in mind in the context of the setting the Ruinous Powers are just normal natural gods cast in the image of the most horrifying conflict, and that natural gods gather an incredible variety of domains and portfolios and can't lose them. Nothing about war categorically prevents creating new things, nor does their inherent futility. Building the strongest possible weapons in a desperate attempt to destroy your enemies before they destroy you ad infinitum easily fits into their own creation narratives.

I can't find a WoG of the Shrines of Vaul being completely intact, so I think you're talking about the Forges- which fair enough, but I think it's less that Creation is somehow intrinsically beyond their remit and more that our Shrine(s) of Vaul were more than just a religious institution, it was our literal primary forge. And that fits with the FoV being both something fundamentally reduced and something we can still recreate in less copies.
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I mean, you say that, but name a single instance where a Slaanesh themed character created something genuinely new, that wasn't just "Take something I found and made it do things that Slaanesh likes with daemons or warp magic". It doesn't somehow magically give you more senses, it just amplifies the ones you already have to absurd heights. Chaos Gods don't have imagination, they have to steal it from mortals, which is why the majority of all Daemons that exist--barring the occasional Exalted one--are all virtually carbon copies of one another within their role, and even the Exalted ones are just "This Greater Daemon but also X which makes them distinct from the others"

Frankly, name one for any Chaos God that can whip something genuinely new out of their ass that isn't just "Something that could already be done but cheating the steps and adding daemons".
 
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Mechanis said:
Crews are 'free' (part of the greater point investment is (potentially crash) training for the new vehicles and or equipment) but you do have to have the relevant equipment (or a reasonable replacement) on hand. So if you want to, say, swap a tank for one of those Star Anvils, you'll need some brigandines and spike carbines on hand for the crews. This is why you can add vehicles, not just swap them.

edit: and yes, Karnax's math is 100% fine.
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Oh shit, can we amend the current production plan then? We have no spike carbins in them so can't field the tanks next turn? Or we'll have to just spend more AP to pre-refit the crew?
 
Alectai said:
I mean, you say that, but name a single instance where a Slaanesh themed character created something genuinely new, that wasn't just "Take something I found and made it do things that Slaanesh likes with daemons or warp magic". It doesn't somehow magically give you more senses, it just amplifies the ones you already have to absurd heights. Chaos Gods don't have imagination, they have to steal it from mortals, which is why the majority of all Daemons that exist--barring the occasional Exalted one--are all virtually carbon copies of one another within their role, and even the Exalted ones are just "This Greater Daemon but also X which makes them distinct from the others"

Frankly, name one for any Chaos God that can whip something genuinely new out of their ass that isn't just "Something that could already be done but cheating the steps and adding daemons".
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I think for one thing anything a Chaos God does is going to have daemons in at as a matter of course, I'm not even sure if they create something without propagating themselves with Daemons- but just look at Nurgle:

Isha as a testbed for all his diseases
Ku'Gath's creation myth as a nurgling who fell into Nurgle's Cauldron and consumed his greatest plague yet to instantly ascend into an Exalted Great Unclean One
Epidemius to chronicle and keep track of all of Nurgle's plagues and keep track of them and their effects

One of the major themes of Nurgle's myths is that he's constantly brewing new plagues and a lot of his most famous Daemons are famous because their role in that process. Whether Nurgle's plagues are meaningfully changing from our perspective is arguably less important than the evident narrative that Nurgle is experimenting, testing, and improving on them. It's not new, it's not creative- but it's absolutely creating new and better methods to propagate his nature. Then you have some Great Unclean Ones like Rottigus Rainmaker that represent Nurgle as a fertility god. You can create new things and bring life into the world while still being an abject font of misery and suffering like all the gods ultimately are. Nothing is sacred from the Chaos Gods' touch, that's half the point.

Just look at what Mechanis said earlier- if we tried to recreate Vaul without a lot of caveats, precautions and contingencies, we'd just wind up with something like Vashtorr.
 
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Yes, he makes more plagues which are all basically interchangable outside of Nurgle's Rot. He's doing the same thing again and again, and the only one that actually matters on the macro scale is the one that's straight up "Your soul mutates into a Plaguebearer and there's nothing that can be done"

How does that make him creative? It's just a guy with a random number generator effectively constantly mixing things up and then thinking they're doing Art.
 
Karugus said:
I think that's an incredible supposition and presumption. Let alone if we even *want* a new Vaul. Keep in mind reforging our soul is just guaranteed to be as effective as the Paths+Soul Stones at a bare minimum. No more no less. We can potentially do a lot more and get a lot more out of it but it does not follow that we will obviously completely excise Slaanesh in the course of reforging our souls. Let alone that Vaul will naturally reform just because we wouldn't have Slaanesh grasping at our souls. Let alone as a protector deity miraculously beyond Slaanesh's reach and with the same name and portfolio as the god still in Slaanesh's stomach with no weaknesses from such a damning association.

People are latching onto this idea because it sounds optimistic to say we repaired all the damage and got our patron deity back. Reforging something is not the same as repairing it, and the option was implicitly a radical departure rather than a miraculous fix.
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all of which is so bad because? please explain to me why a little optimism is so terrible. I'm not proposing any wild schemes, declaring any crazy "We'll have X solved by turn Y" or suggesting any change of course or adjustment of our approach to the coming turns based on the info post in question. Is there just some superstition regarding the holding of an optimistic opinion in regards to the future of a warhammer quest? :V
 
Alectai said:
Yes, he makes more plagues which are all basically interchangable outside of Nurgle's Rot. He's doing the same thing again and again, and the only one that actually matters on the macro scale is the one that's straight up "Your soul mutates into a Plaguebearer and there's nothing that can be done"

How does that make him creative? It's just a guy with a random number generator effectively constantly mixing things up and then thinking they're doing Art.
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At this point you're just shifting from Creating things and insisting these don't count as creations to the Chaos Gods aren't creative- which isn't really the same argument. These are natural gods supercharged from a war millions of years ago, who have expanded in that time to cover almost every niche not actively covered by the Pantheon. Of course they're pretty stuck in their own ruts they've worn over aeons. But the myths of innovating and creating are present whether you want to insist they're a fig leaf or not.

The Chaos Gods aren't innovative, they aren't creative- but saying Chaos can't create is attaching more metaphysical meaning to that then it really deserves.
Vashtor is the Daemonic demigod of inventors, engineers, scientists and artisans. He is curiosity and innovation shorn of moral conscience and driven to its darkest extremes. Empowered by the ceaseless inquiring of mortal minds, Vashtorr embodies the mortal need to understand and then enslave natural forces to their will, and to eventually achieve technological apotheosis at any cost.
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Mechanis said:
The conditions in which the Aeldari gods originally arose and 'today' are as different from eachother as Earth is from Jupiter, even if you attemped such a thing, it simply wouldn't work, because the Chaos Gods weren't a thing yet. Which means you probably end up getting Vashtorr in a funny hat and grocho marx glasses rather than Vaul 2.0 anyway, even if you were willing to try In Universe. Which you aren't, for the record.
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Yeah.... looks like Chaos ruins everything it touches- including creativity, innovation, and going by artisan- artistic expression. Whether even Vashtorr is creative, innovating force making wholly new things is far less relevant than the fact it embodies and is empowered by the most extreme and self-defeating acts of that nature like all of Chaos is respectively.
 
There is a huge possibility that any form of safe creativity and innovation that doesn't lead to Slannesh... lies in Cegorach's domain, short of the Vulkhari succeeding from the Phoenix Court. Part of the problem is that Slaanesh subsumed the sphere of creation unto obsessive perfection at all cost, even devouring one's kin, society and soul.

That is, if Cegorach and his Harlequins biggest secret is that they have already seceded from the Phoenix Court. :V
 
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I'm not saying all creativity or innovation is doomed to become evil because 'lul Chaos'. Even at it's bleakest that's just not how the setting works. But I am arguing that there's no reason to believe creativity, innovation, and creating new things can't be corrupted by Chaos.

Randino Treviani said:
all of which is so bad because? please explain to me why a little optimism is so terrible. I'm not proposing any wild schemes, declaring any crazy "We'll have X solved by turn Y" or suggesting any change of course or adjustment of our approach to the coming turns based on the info post in question. Is there just some superstition regarding the holding of an optimistic opinion in regards to the future of a warhammer quest? :V
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If you're arguing these things as self-evidently following from 'effectively every Eldar was already a Daemon to their benign deities and after Slaanesh won their souls by right of conquest its a desperate struggle to keep every Eldar from becoming a Daemon of Slaanesh' than yeah- I'm going to dismiss the optimism. If 40k is presented as an easy setting to get a good ending from, it cheapens the setting and the tragedy of the trillions of people supposedly dead to build the setting.

Optimism in the face of trillions of deaths, the permanent damaging of reality, the creation of a new major evil, and things getting objectively worse for everyone just feels more insensitive and tone deaf than it does uplifting or encouraging.
 
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Mechanis said:
Notably relavent to this discussion, Ynnaed is very much not Asuryan. The conditions in which the Aeldari gods originally arose and 'today' are as different from eachother as Earth is from Jupiter, even if you attemped such a thing, it simply wouldn't work, because the Chaos Gods weren't a thing yet. Which means you probably end up getting Vashtorr in a funny hat and grocho marx glasses rather than Vaul 2.0 anyway, even if you were willing to try In Universe. Which you aren't, for the record.
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fair enough. well then. back my original optimism. looking through the rest of our vaults to get something useful for dealing with the fateweaver curse and possible attempts to scry us by other Aeldari.
 
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