Our artillery vehicles are going be grav vehicles that can go from 0-100kph easy, don't require any anchoring, and can ignore most terrain. Debating about the best defenses for counter battery fire is missing the entire point. It's one of the vehicles that will be least exposed to incoming fire and needs to by it's nature focus on putting out as much of it's firepower as possible.
Outside of fighting other Eldar we're basically always going to be massively outnumbered. Dispersion and volume of fire is the best way to counter the Holo-Field and Grav-Shield combo and the Orks have both in spades.

Mass artillery fire is actually pretty good IRL Vs armor as even if the thickest parts of your tanks are well armored enough to shrug off anything that isn't a direct hit the lightly or unarmored bits of your tank where some critical components are can't. I highly doubt all the important bits of our tanks are fully underarmor as for example you kinda need your sensors to to be exposed to be able to see things.

Our mortars likely won't be outranging much unless we go for the superheavy ones given the description from the Seeker entry explicitly calls them short ranged so we aren't going to have that much downtime before counterbattery fire starts up.
Fusion Mortars and Bombards are heavy plasma weapons which can serve as short range artillery, sending burning stars of plasma arcing over a battlefield to detonate among an enemy force. Of course, they are also perfectly able to be fired directly at a target, such as when mounted to a voidship.

The solution to 'what if there's hostile seers providing divination' should be- excellent the Fatecasters are going to earn their keep. And AoE artillery shells are a bad way to defeat an armored vehicle in the first place, we don't need to be delaying the development of our artillery arm out of some misguided demand to make it more resilient than our tanks. That's just counterproductive.
You are also being incredibly optimistic assuming we can just pick off any hostile seers with Fatecasters since that is the sort of thing they should be able to forsee and if they're buttoned up inside a armored vehicle (y'know like ours are in our Mech HQ detachments) you're going to need something heavier than Fatecasters Rifles to tag them.
Intended as a command unit for the largest or most important Warhosts, a Mechanized Headquarters detachment brings two squads each of Hearthguard Veterans, Fatebreakers, and Brightstars, each with an attached Warseer, and a Warcasting Circle to provide heavy protective firepower, all of which are mounted to Needlestorm IFVs.
 
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[ ] Plan Oh shit there were supposed to be 200 voidguard suits in that plan fuuuuc-
--[ ] 450 Needle Carbines, 50 Starblaster Carbines, 100 Heavy Needlers, 50 Heavy Spike Cannons, 200 Void Guard Warsuits
 
It looks like a Dragon Ran face first into an eagle Falcon and can't get it off... I love it.


EDIT: Also, If we never make a Larger two handed version where the handle is longer and the back is a functional Sheer/Ripper/Power blade, I will be incredibly happy, Because That looks like a Big staff already where you flip between Halberd blade and the big hammer.
 
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I'd rather the VG than the Star Anvil. It's not particularly efficient at anything but engaging super heavy war engines, and not even well suited to fighting other Eldar super heavies. If we want armor support we'd probably be better off with a handful of grav tanks rather than a singular super heavy suited for hunting Gargants and Warhounds.
Outside of fighting other Eldar we're basically always going to be massively outnumbered. Dispersion and volume of fire is the best way to counter the Holo-Field and Grav-Shield combo and the Orks have both in spades.

Mass artillery fire is actually pretty good IRL Vs armor as even if the thickest parts of your tanks are well armored enough to shrug off anything that isn't a direct hit the lightly or unarmored bits of your tank where some critical components are can't (I highly doubt all the important bits of our tank are fully underarmor as you kinda need your sensors to to be exposed to be able to see things for example).

Our mortars likely won't be outranging much unless we go for the superheavy ones given the description from the Seeker entry explicitly calls them short ranged so we aren't going to have that much downtime before counterbattery fire starts up.
You're just ignoring the time it takes to bring so many artillery pieces to bear, or the utter difficulty of Orks coordinating a battery, let alone communicating the accurate location of a suspected artillery piece to be counter-batteried. Counter battery has never, and will never be the province of a hundred guns individually shooting at something they individually think should explode. You're handwaving the need for a battery to be incredibly quickly given accurate coordinates based off really quick deductions. With no communication errors, no personalities butting head, etc.

Ork artillery is probably pretty alright in a direct fire role, decent at suppressing a location or shelling fortifications- but the idea that their artillery is so responsive and so well coordinated they can engage hostile SPGs that can fire on the move* with enough reliability so as to easily counter it? I'm skeptical to say the least.

*Crystal Targeting Matrixes are a thing.
The question isn't, Light SPG Skimmer with a fusion mortar OR Grav-tank with Vehicle fusion mortars OR a Heavy Grav Tank with Dual superheavy Mortars. The Answer is that I want all three of those, So the question is when can we afford the actions to develope all of them.
Yeah, all of these serve slightly different roles and are all useful capabilities in their own right. A skimmer is a lot easier to have organically in a line detachment than a grav tank artillery vehicle or a super heavy artillery vehicle but those are going to have more firepower and staying power.

I favor developing the lighter organic artillery and support roles before we develop the more specialized heavier vehicles just because it gives us a bit more room to decide how many of the latter we want now that a baseline has been established.

You are also being incredibly optimistic assuming we can just pick off any hostile seers with Fatecasters since that is the sort of thing they should be able to forsee and if they're buttoned up inside a armored vehicle (y'know like ours are in our Mech HQ detachments) you're going to need something heavier than Fatecasters Rifles to tag them.
It's the sort of thing they need to actively be looking for and countering the entire time, especially given seers right now are in their infancy and as weak in their powers as they will ever be. If they're buttoned up in an APC they're not really helping their own situation all that much either given our anti-armor weaponry is going to be significantly better as a matter of course. To say nothing of the fact a Fatecaster is not some small caliber rifle. It's the bigger and mean version of a Shuriken Cannon and whatever vehicle the Seer is trying to hide it- it's not going to be a Wave Serpent or a Falcon just yet.

The idea their seers can casually direct counter batteries with artillery Biel-Tan shouldn't have yet (and most Craftworld artillery are monofilaments that would be awful for fighting a vehicle with) while completely hidden and with no retaliation from our High Technology snipers, Anti-Armor specialists, or Seers of our own is just presuming the enemy has total freedom to act and react as they choose.

I can't even call you pessimistic, your arguments just seem contingent on the assumption that our artillery has to fight the entire enemy army on their lonesome.
 
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I'd rather the VG than the Star Anvil. It's not particularly inefficient at anything but engaging super heavy war engines, and not even well suited to fighting other Eldar super heavies. If we want armor support we'd probably be better off with a handful of grav tanks rather than a singular super heavy suited for hunting Gargants and Warhounds.

You're just ignoring the time it takes to bring so many artillery pieces to bear, or the utter difficulty of Orks coordinating a battery, let alone communicating the accurate location of a suspected artillery piece to be counter-batteried. Counter battery has never, and will never be the province of a hundred guns individually shooting at something they individually think should explode. You're handwaving the need for a battery to be incredibly quickly given accurate coordinates based off really quick deductions. With no communication errors, no personalities butting head, etc.

Ork artillery is probably pretty alright in a direct fire role, decent at suppressing a location or shelling fortifications- but the idea that their artillery is so responsive and so well coordinated they can engage hostile SPGs that can fire on the move* with enough reliability so as to easily counter it? I'm skeptical to say the least.
They don't need to be responsive when they should be able to blanket a huge area in shellfire to force you to move. If you displace far enough away that you are able to avoid counterfire then you're probably also no longer in range to shoot back.

Again, these aren't long barreled howitzers like Earthshakers, these are mortars. Hell, the Earthshaker canonically only has about 15km or range which isn't even impressive by IRL standards.
 
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They don't need to be responsive when they should be able to blanket a huge area in shellfire to force you to move. If you displace far enough away that you are able to avoid counterfire then you're probably also no longer in range to shoot back.

Again, these aren't long barreled howitzers like Earthshakers, these are mortars. Hell, the Earthshaker canonically only has about 15km or range which isn't even impressive by IRL standards.
So your argument is literally several dozen square kilometers are going to be continuously exploding so densely it is impossible for a light artillery vehicle to exist in such a space. This is actually worse than I thought, if we took your conclusions as credible, how could any Eldar force fight them without vanishing into an explosion? How could Eldar with an almost crippling focus on hit and run for ten thousands years in canon fight Orks with so much ordnance randomly on hand that they can throw up continuous walls of explosions nigh 15km deep?

This is just approaching the most caricature take on Orks and going a step further. Even the WW1 artillery that you seem be extrapolating from a) never worked like that, b) required thousands of artillery pieces used in tandem, and c) used upwards of a million shells each time and was so unsustainable bombardment could never be kept up with any real intensity longer than a few days at those levels.
 
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A good point was made that the Star Anvil, while awesome, is probably not going to be serving a combat role that we actually need in the upcoming Biel-Tan conflict since we have no reason to think that they'll be marching anything our way which requires a superheavy weapon to be blasted. The Starhammer's vehicle-grade Starlance is likely to be enough to defeat any vehicle they bring to oppose us, and we can build three of them for every Star Anvil, allowing for more flexible deployment. And the infantry equipment shouldn't be totally neglected. Perhaps a more moderate mechanization plan is in order.

[ ] Plan Mechanization II
-[ ] Starhammer Battle Tank x5 (1900 EP)
-[ ] Mirage Hover-Transport x10 (1820 EP)
-[ ] Void Guard Warsuit x100 (600 EP)
-[ ] Starblaster Carbine x40 (320 EP)
-[ ] Heavy Needler x36 (360 EP)

Opinions on this, anyone?
 
It's the sort of thing they need to actively be looking for and countering the entire time, especially given seers right now are in their infancy and as weak in their powers as they will ever be. If they're buttoned up in an APC they're not really helping their own situation all that much either given our anti-armor weaponry is going to be significantly better as a matter of course. To say nothing of the fact a Fatecaster is not some small caliber rifle. It's the bigger and mean version of a Shuriken Cannon and whatever vehicle the Seer is trying to hide it- it's not going to be a Wave Serpent or a Falcon just yet.

The idea their seers can casually direct counter batteries with artillery Biel-Tan shouldn't have yet (and most Craftworld artillery are monofilaments that would be awful for fighting a vehicle with) while completely hidden and with no retaliation from our High Technology snipers, Anti-Armor specialists, or Seers of our own is just presuming the enemy has total freedom to act and react as they choose.
In what way are monofilaments bad against tanks?
Night Spinner Lexicanum Description said:
The web is made up of thousands of miles of incredibly strong, monofilament thread that can shear through any substance, including steel or tank armour.
Our seers currently hide in IFVs which are based off of a tank hull equivalent, they should be at least somewhat resistant to Fatecaster Rifle fire and to borrow your own argument are fast enough to run away.
I can't even call you pessimistic, your arguments just seem contingent on the assumption that our artillery has to fight the entire enemy army on their lonesome.
It is utterly nonsensical that you seriously arguing that a unit whose job it is to assist other units into performing better wouldn't be doing it's job against what will be a major arm of our army. Given the only other way to reach our arty would be to go through our line units since as you've made clear our arty is very quick it would make sense to prioritize suppressing our arty with theirs.
When attached to a Squad, a Warseer leverages their abilities to help avoid danger, detect hidden threats, and guide actions to increase a squad's effectiveness.
[quote"Seeing Circle Description, post:31799505"]Alternatively, six Warseers can be arranged into a Seeing Circle, to provide a lighter but wider bonus to an entire Detachment or Warhost by combining their abilities.[/quote]

So your argument is literally several dozen square kilometers are going to be continuously exploding so densely it is impossible for a light artillery vehicle to exist in such a space. This is actually worse than I thought, if we took your conclusions as credible, how could any Eldar force fight them without vanishing into an explosion? How could Eldar with an almost crippling focus on hit and run for ten thousands years in canon fight Orks with so much ordnance randomly on hand that they can throw up continuous walls of explosions nigh 15km deep?

This is just approaching the most caricature take on Orks and going a step further. Even the WW1 artillery that you seem be extrapolating from a) never worked like that, b) required thousands of artillery pieces used in tandem, and c) used upwards of a million shells each time and was so unsustainable bombardment could never be kept up with any real intensity longer than a few days at those levels.
An Earthshaker only has 15km of range lorewise and probably outranges our mortars by a lot since they are some of the longest ranged weapons on TT, you are seriously overestimating how far our mortars can reach if you think they'd need to blanket several dozen square kilometers.

Plus plasma mortars are basically a big "shoot this area" sign since you're firing a big blob of visible superheated plasma into the sky that may as well be a signal flare.
 
Star Anvil Superheavy Assault Tank1300786

I propose we build exactly one of these. They are super super expensive, but are going to be cost effective against beil-tian. It has a starbalde to deal with any possible singular super units like a light titan or an avatar of khaine, and fate caster weaponry is going to be cost effective against eldar who need to dodge. However given the sheer cost I don't think building more than one is practical.
 
[X] Plan Oh shit there were supposed to be 200 voidguard suits in that plan fuuuuc-
-[X] 450 Needle Carbines, 50 Starblaster Carbines, 100 Heavy Needlers, 50 Heavy Spike Cannons, 200 Void Guard Warsuit

I'll admit I don't know why this plan goes so heavy on the heavy weapons...so here's one that doesn't.

[X] Long on the Longarms
-[X] 699 Needle Carbines,(2796 EP) 63 Starblaster Carbines(504 EP), 50 Heavy Needlers(500 EP), 200 Void Guard Warsuit (1200 EP)
 
[X] Plan Oh shit there were supposed to be 200 voidguard suits in that plan fuuuuc-
-[X] 450 Needle Carbines, 50 Starblaster Carbines, 100 Heavy Needlers, 50 Heavy Spike Cannons, 200 Void Guard Warsuit

So we have them for distribution, better to have more than we think we'll need than otherwise.
 
[X] Long on the Longarms
[X] Plan Oh shit there were supposed to be 200 voidguard suits in that plan fuuuuc-

Any Titan with a holo-field is instantly going to make the Starblade significantly less effective, and the odds of Biel-Tan fielding an Avatar of Khaine when we have WoG that the first Young King ritual was incredibly recent, and under the most dire of circumstances is unlikely.

In what way are monofilaments bad against tanks?
Because if you take wiki hyperbole for everything then you get nowhere. Especially since it's a fucking cloud of wires that takes significant amounts of time to unfurl. Yes, I'm going to assume it's going to struggle to engage a continuously moving that requires the personal intervention of a Seer to actively be tracked at a minimum.
It is utterly nonsensical that you seriously arguing that a unit whose job it is to assist other units into performing better wouldn't be doing it's job against what will be a major arm of our army. Given the only other way to reach our arty would be to go through our line units since as you've made clear our arty is very quick it would make sense to prioritize suppressing our arty with theirs.
Its not nonsensical to assume that Seers, a very limited commodity, aren't going to unilaterally make indirect fire as dangerous as direct fire. If we treat any of your arguments seriously for how quickly our opponents can concentrate fire on targets we shouldn't be fighting in direct line of sight at all. And yes, I'm assuming between our infantry with exotic weaponry, our vehicles with pound for pound more firepower, and us fighting a defensive campaign on our own Craftworld their seers will have difficulty shutting down our artillery so casually that the resources invested in disrupting our artillery are minimal rather than a substantial trade off in their own right.

[quote"Seeing Circle Description, post:31799505"]Alternatively, six Warseers can be arranged into a Seeing Circle, to provide a lighter but wider bonus to an entire Detachment or Warhost by combining their abilities.
[/QUOTE]
A squad, or minor bonuses to an entire warhost. I don't know about you but we've not been given an option to casually have seers personally direct artillery batteries, nor do I assume a light bonus across a detachment or a Warhost leads to instantaneously counter firing on our SPGs that don't have to stop to move.

An Earthshaker only has 15km of range lorewise and probably outranges our mortars by a lot since they are some of the longest ranged weapons on TT, you are seriously overestimating how far our mortars can reach if you think they'd need to blanket several dozen square kilometers.

Plus plasma mortars are basically a big "shoot this area" sign since you're firing a big blob of visible superheated plasma into the sky that may as well be a signal flare.
A Falcon manages 80kph easily in combat, we're talking about a Skimmer in this case so let's say 120kph since it's a lighter vehicle. That's 2km a distance per minute. That means you have to cover 16 square kilometers with counter fire inside of a minute unless you actively know where it's going- (which you don't because it's BLOS and has a Holo-Field). Per skimmer. I was being generous- saying a few dozen kilometers when we're talking about Warhost scale combat. And you're the one that keeps comparing a SPG that requires itself to dig in and stabilize to accurate fire to the hover tank that can stop to shoot and roll away without any pause whatsoever if it needs to stop to shoot at all.

I don't have any more interest in arguing against a no limits fallacy stuck on the fucking Basilisk when I'm well aware we're talking about a shorter ranged, much faster vehicle that has way more mobility than anything the Imperium has outside of the fucking Custodes or that can actively fly. Guess what- the Wyvern and the Griffon mortar carriers both exist, without any particular mobility, and without any particular defenses. It's almost like mortar carriers can work *before* they're made into incredibly fast platforms with the most sophisticated jammers around and more mobility than most enemies' scouting vehicles. The notion they need Grav Shields or Conversion Fields to just avoid getting casually backhanded out of existence is just fearmongering.
 
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A good point was made that the Star Anvil, while awesome, is probably not going to be serving a combat role that we actually need in the upcoming Biel-Tan conflict since we have no reason to think that they'll be marching anything our way which requires a superheavy weapon to be blasted.

Look my fellow Space Elf. Saying such insane things is why the Tau are getting laughed at all the Time. "We won't need something like that. We will build sensible Designs, because we live in a rational and sensible Galaxy" As if the Star Anvil could not deliver the Firewpower of several smaller Tanks with its complement of Weapons. It even has a Starhammer Battle Tank built in. It makes for a perfect Welcome Gift to Biel-Tan or that cunningly brutal Ork Warboss.
 
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[ ] Plan Mechanization II
-[ ] Starhammer Battle Tank x5 (1900 EP)
-[ ] Mirage Hover-Transport x10 (1820 EP)
-[ ] Void Guard Warsuit x100 (600 EP)
-[ ] Starblaster Carbine x40 (320 EP)
-[ ] Heavy Needler x36 (360 EP)

Opinions on this, anyone?
Hrmm.

Is this targeted towards, say, retrofitting the Iron Fist? That's our heavy armour warhost, insofar as we have one.
I'd run the math, but I can't get @vsh's warhost refitting generator to cooperate with me and I don't have the spoons to make a spreadsheet. Maybe tomorrow.

[X] Plan Oh shit there were supposed to be 200 voidguard suits in that plan fuuuuc-
-[X] 450 Needle Carbines, 50 Starblaster Carbines, 100 Heavy Needlers, 50 Heavy Spike Cannons, 200 Void Guard Warsuit
Is the moratorium up? I thought it wasn't for another hour or so.
 
A holo-field and grav shield is already more then enough protection for a Shoot and scoot vehicle, And Its arguable if a shoot and scoot skimmer even needs THAT. We know for a fact that farseers Don't completly invalidate artillery with counter-battery fire, Becasue the imperial guard are fully capable of using wyvern Mortar carriers, with much shorter ranges, less speed. Ork big guns are literally Squig pulled Howitzers, Aside from being doubful if they can counterbattery a shoot and scooter AT ALL, If Farseers don't even invalidate them, I'm not super worried about them invalidating a mortar vehicle CLASS.



if they are using seers to try and Counter battery the lightning fast mortar guns, Those seers cannot in turn be participating in the war of "I know that you know that I know that you know" That Farseer Vs farseer combat entails. If they waste farseers trying to do that instead of Playing that game on a strategic level, THAT IS A WIN FOR US.
 
In terms of equipment, I'd go with:
- 2x StarAnvils
- Weapons to refit the detachment we are going to give tanks to specifically
- If EP left after that, weapons to refit some 4th militia warhost's detachment.

To optimize next turn Steward AP. I'll make a plan.
 
[X] Long on the Longarms
[X] Plan Oh shit there were supposed to be 200 voidguard suits in that plan fuuuuc-

Any Titan with a holo-field is instantly going to make the Starblade significantly less effective, and the odds of Biel-Tan fielding an Avatar of Khaine when we have WoG that the first Young King ritual was incredibly recent, and under the most dire of circumstances is unlikely.
That would actually be more justification for getting a Star Anvil as it is the only unit we have which has vehicle grade or higher Fatecaster weapons (2 Fatesevers in this case) which would give it the highest odds of being able to threaten a titan with Holo-Fields out of anything in our existing armory. The fact that it's got 3 Grav-Shields and a Holo-Field also means it's the most likely to come out of the ordeal alive out of any of our units too.
Because if you take wiki hyperbole for everything then you get nowhere. Especially since it's a fucking cloud of wires that takes significant amounts of time to unfurl. Yes, I'm going to assume it's going to struggle to engage a continuously moving that requires the personal intervention of a Seer to actively be tracked at a minimum.
I wouldn't call it a hyperbole, they literally have the same Strength rating as a Plasma cannon on TT, now you can argue that TT isn't reflective of the lore but then we're back to the lore statement that backs it up as being capable of hurting tanks.

Its not nonsensical to assume that Seers, a very limited commodity, aren't going to unilaterally make indirect fire as dangerous as direct fire. If we treat any of your arguments seriously for how quickly our opponents can concentrate fire on targets we shouldn't be fighting in direct line of sight at all. And yes, I'm assuming between our infantry with exotic weaponry, our vehicles with pound for pound more firepower, and us fighting a defensive campaign on our own Craftworld will have difficulty shutting down our artillery so casually that the resources invested in disrupting our artillery are minimal rather than a substantial trade off in their own right.

A squad, or minor bonuses to an entire warhost. I don't know about you but we've not been given an option to casually have seers personally direct artillery batteries, nor do I assume a light bonus across a detachment or a Warhost leads to instantaneously counter firing on our SPGs that don't have to stop to move.


A Falcon manages 80kph easily in combat, we're talking about a Skimmer in this case so let's say 120kph since it's a lighter vehicle. That's 2km a distance per minute. That means you have to cover 16 square kilometers with counter fire inside of a minute unless you actively know where it's going. Per skimmer. I was being generous- saying a few dozen kilometers when we're talking about Warhost scale combat. And you're the one that keeps comparing to a SPG that requires itself to dig in and stabilize to accurate fire to the hover tank that can stop to shoot and roll away without any pause whatsoever if it needs to stop to shoot at all.
I'm baffled as to how you keep insisting that me arguing that Biel Tan could potentially use some war seer to provide their own artillery with more effective corrected counter-battery fire means that somehow I am pitting our artillery solely against their entire warhost.

The reason I only mentioned their artillery and warseers is specifically because I figured the rest of their warhost would be occupied by ours so their only tools against our artillery would be their own (if they have any) and any warseer that could spare.

Biel Tan is also a Major Craftworld, just from sheer population they should statistically have a much larger amount of trained psykers than us especially since we took the "Peaceful" trait and didn't get the top level Seer infrastructure.
I don't have any more interest in arguing against a no limits fallacy stuck on the fucking Basilisk when I'm well aware we're talking about a shorter ranged, much faster vehicle that has way more mobility than anything the Imperium has outside of the fucking Custodes or that can actively fly. Guess what- the Wyvern and the Griffon mortar carriers both exist, without any particular mobility, and without any particular defenses. It's almost like mortar carriers can work *before* they're made into incredibly fast platforms with the most sophisticated jammers around and more mobility than most enemies' scouting vehicles.
I don't think using vehicles that are fielded by a regime notorious for how little they regard the lives of their own peoples is the "Gotcha" you think it is.

All I am arguing for is that Conversion Fields are the superior protection system over Grav-Shields for any artillery vehicles we produce and then providing reasons for why and examples of why those reasons would be relevant.

I'm not trying to doom-posting about how Biel Tan's going to roll up with a horde of Void Spinners in a turn to drown our Craftworld in a sea of monofilament wire or how the Orks are going to build a space-bridge to our Craftworld using expended artillery shells, I am pointing out that "just Holo-Fields" for our artillery vehicles isn't always the best option and that having our artillery vehicles have an above average level of survivability can be a good thing.

Seriously, we have something like ~10k people under arms out of a nearly 6 billion Eldar population and low Warrior AP, we are pretty much always going to be massively outnumbered.
 
[X] Long on the Longarms
[X] Plan Oh shit there were supposed to be 200 voidguard suits in that plan fuuuuc-
 
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