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Okay, it's now set to only require a prototype to be begun.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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- Sci-Fi
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- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
Jenny
anonymous user
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- maryland
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- She/Her
[X] @Iron Wolf
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- somewhere
This could be a decent starting point for a relatively limited revamp (I'd have some quibbles, but that's only to be expected). I'd hope the system itself would be changed a bit more though, because I don't think it has worked very well so far.
As a sketch of a more radical possible design, we could perhaps split what is now roles into two levels, perhaps called roles and profiles. For example the Heavy Explorer profile would have the roles 5YM explorer, flagship and primary frontier responder, the Science Frigate profile would perhaps have the roles survey ship, crisis responder, secondary responder, scout, skirmisher and minesweeper. The reason being that the current system doesn't really deal with multi-purpose designs very well. Profiles would match what we actually want out of a particular class, roles would describe the various jobs that need to be done. A role could be shared by multiple profiles, each with some other roles and perhaps particular restrictions. To justify a new design project we would either need to argue that we don't have any ships that fulfill a particular role adequately (like now), or argue that covering more roles with the same class would be better, e. g. because one of the roles is too limited and the ships covering it spend too much time idle.
Can I convince you to split with him on the Ambition? I really think a commitment to a second UP yard that we're not all agreed on is a bad idea.
Jenny
anonymous user
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- maryland
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- She/Her
Eh, nah. I like enough about the ambition that I'm fine with committing to a second UP yard.
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- Central Standard Time
... Can I convince anyone to vote for an Expansionist Ambition?
[X][AMB] Announce new Starfleet Ambition: Fleet 2320s
Havent voted yet because nothing seems terrible but this ambition sounds nice.
For roles:
Lets just call the Kepler a Garrison Frigatte or Response Frigatte. It will sit in our zones and be useful there. Calling it a Science frigatte while its Presence score is good enough to be proud of is silly.
Whatever we will name the Flower class should just be called Combat Frigatte. I would rather just eat a bit of militarization than engage in doublespeak. We will design it with its capabilities during battles as highest priority so we should own up to it. This way we can also ditch the Presence requirement.
With the Keplers S being better than its P it would be cute for the replacement of the Constellation to have more P than S.
Havent voted yet because nothing seems terrible but this ambition sounds nice.
For roles:
Lets just call the Kepler a Garrison Frigatte or Response Frigatte. It will sit in our zones and be useful there. Calling it a Science frigatte while its Presence score is good enough to be proud of is silly.
Whatever we will name the Flower class should just be called Combat Frigatte. I would rather just eat a bit of militarization than engage in doublespeak. We will design it with its capabilities during battles as highest priority so we should own up to it. This way we can also ditch the Presence requirement.
With the Keplers S being better than its P it would be cute for the replacement of the Constellation to have more P than S.
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
There has been a bit of a push in the SDB lately to accept a P4 Kepler, which is a bit dodgy...
Nervos Belli
Don't think this means you've won!
- Location
- Murica
I'd be cool with that if we designed a garrison frigate to supplement it. Like a C3 S5 P5 would make a nice replacement for the Centaur.
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- Central Standard Time
Still, it's primarily a Science ship.
The reason I'm pushing Flower as the next class name is because of the WWII-era corvette class of the same name, and the fact that Legate Dikhed is going to be very annoyed. Also, the Klingons would probably respect such a name. Finally, the wording "Next Generation Frigate" isn't doublespeak - it's there because then we aren't locked into one specific type. Given that we might do a sweeping tactical update, the flexibility is welcome.
I was thinking C2 H2 L4 S5 P6 D5, since such a ship would be an acceptable secondary scout and skirmisher.
There's no indication we can have more than one ambition simultaneously. We get a new one when we complete the old one.
- Location
- Austin, TX
So, to jump topics for a bit, how does Ex Astris, Scientia look for this year, with both of the top two plans asking for the same tech team, and the two new free teams pretty much unanimous?
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[X][COUNCIL] 2317 Snakepit – Sydraxian Diplomacy, Shipyard Expansion, and Starfleet Reorg
[X][AMB] Announce new Starfleet Ambition: Fleet 2320s
Ambivalent on the others.
[X][AMB] Announce new Starfleet Ambition: Fleet 2320s
Ambivalent on the others.
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
[X][COUNCIL] 2317 Snakepit – Intelligence and EC Reorg
[X][TECH] Inid Uttar Institute (Sk 3, Sensors / Propulsion)
[X][TECH] Henn-Makad Engineering Institute (Sk 3, Starbases / Minerals)
[X][AMB] Announce new Starfleet Ambition: Maintain a strong Forward Defense.
[X][TECH] Inid Uttar Institute (Sk 3, Sensors / Propulsion)
[X][TECH] Henn-Makad Engineering Institute (Sk 3, Starbases / Minerals)
[X][AMB] Announce new Starfleet Ambition: Maintain a strong Forward Defense.
@lbmaian @fitzgerald @Gingganz @Muer'ci
There is now very little difference between 2317 Snakepit – Strategic Diplomacy, Efficient Berths, and Reorg and 2317 Snakepit – Sydraxian Diplomacy, Shipyard Expansion, and Starfleet Reorg
Now that I changed my plan to do auxiliary berths, it's a lot more efficient berth wise.
If you were willing to consolidate, we might be able to win.
There is now very little difference between 2317 Snakepit – Strategic Diplomacy, Efficient Berths, and Reorg and 2317 Snakepit – Sydraxian Diplomacy, Shipyard Expansion, and Starfleet Reorg
Now that I changed my plan to do auxiliary berths, it's a lot more efficient berth wise.
If you were willing to consolidate, we might be able to win.
I have no problem with "Next Generation Frigatte". That part of my post was directed at the people who want to call it our "Garrison Frigatte" instead of giving that name to the ship we actually plan to use as our main sector filler.
I can't say I see much issue with a profile -> roles system, although of course the devil is in the details. So, to take that a step farther, preliminary sketching of roles:
5YM Explorer - Execute five-year missions at extreme range with no support. Seek out severe anomalies, conduct high-level diplomacy, and discover and combat future threats.
Primary Frontier Response - Patrol and event response in frontier areas and border zones where the nature of each event is highly uncertain.
Primary Sector Response - Sector flagships that patrol and respond to events in established areas.
Crisis Response - Emergency event response. Distress calls of all sorts.
Garrison Response - Non-emergency event response, split further to Diplomatic, Science, and Combat.
Support Response - Support a primary event responder.
Survey - Regular mapping missions, including surveying known anomalies.
Interception - Detect, intercept, and tail potential unknowns, whether in peacetime or as part of a fleet in a warzone.
Battle Artillery - Deal the most damage in the Vanguard and Heavy Metal phases, while soaking hits with shields and avoiding hull damage that reduces capability.
Vanguard Line - Deal and take damage in the Vanguard and Heavy Metal phases.
Vanguard Escort - Deal and take damage in the Vanguard and Heavy Metal phases, and enable frigate-specific maneuvers in those phases.
Skirmish Line - Achieve favorable positioning in the Skirmish phase. Deal and avoid damage in the Skirmish and Vanguard phases.
Fleet Scout - Execute the Scouting phase in battle.
Minesweeper - Detect mines in the Minesweeping phase in battle.
Primary Frontier Response - Patrol and event response in frontier areas and border zones where the nature of each event is highly uncertain.
Primary Sector Response - Sector flagships that patrol and respond to events in established areas.
Crisis Response - Emergency event response. Distress calls of all sorts.
Garrison Response - Non-emergency event response, split further to Diplomatic, Science, and Combat.
Support Response - Support a primary event responder.
Survey - Regular mapping missions, including surveying known anomalies.
Interception - Detect, intercept, and tail potential unknowns, whether in peacetime or as part of a fleet in a warzone.
Battle Artillery - Deal the most damage in the Vanguard and Heavy Metal phases, while soaking hits with shields and avoiding hull damage that reduces capability.
Vanguard Line - Deal and take damage in the Vanguard and Heavy Metal phases.
Vanguard Escort - Deal and take damage in the Vanguard and Heavy Metal phases, and enable frigate-specific maneuvers in those phases.
Skirmish Line - Achieve favorable positioning in the Skirmish phase. Deal and avoid damage in the Skirmish and Vanguard phases.
Fleet Scout - Execute the Scouting phase in battle.
Minesweeper - Detect mines in the Minesweeping phase in battle.
Some Profiles as an example:
Heavy Explorer:
Primary Roles - 5YM Explorer, Primary Frontier Response, Primary Sector Response, Crisis Response, Battle Artillery
Secondary Roles - Garrison Response, Survey
Sector Flagship:
Primary Roles - Primary Frontier Response, Primary Sector Response, Crisis Response, Battle Artillery
Secondary Roles - Garrison Response, Survey, Vanguard Line
General Cruiser:
Primary Roles - Crisis Response, Garrison Response, Vanguard Line
Secondary Roles - Primary Sector Response, Support Response, Survey
Garrison Cruiser:
Primary Roles - Crisis Response, Garrison Response, Support Response, Survey
Secondary Roles - Vanguard Line, Skirmish Line
Future Garrison Frigate:
Primary Roles - Crisis Response, Garrison Response, Support Response, Skirmish Line, Minesweeper
Secondary Roles - Fleet Scout, Survey, Vanguard Escort
Current Combat Frigate:
Primary Roles - Vanguard Escort, Skirmish Line, Support Response
Secondary Roles - Crisis Response, Combat Garrison Response, Minesweeper
Future Combat Frigate:
Primary Roles - Vanguard Escort, Interception, Support Response, Minesweeper
Secondary Roles - Crisis Response, Science/Combat Garrison Response, Skirmish Line
Science/Courier Frigate:
Primary Roles - Science/Diplomatic Garrison Response, Support Response, Survey, Fleet Scout, Minesweeper
Secondary Roles - Crisis Response, Skirmish Line
Primary Roles - 5YM Explorer, Primary Frontier Response, Primary Sector Response, Crisis Response, Battle Artillery
Secondary Roles - Garrison Response, Survey
Sector Flagship:
Primary Roles - Primary Frontier Response, Primary Sector Response, Crisis Response, Battle Artillery
Secondary Roles - Garrison Response, Survey, Vanguard Line
General Cruiser:
Primary Roles - Crisis Response, Garrison Response, Vanguard Line
Secondary Roles - Primary Sector Response, Support Response, Survey
Garrison Cruiser:
Primary Roles - Crisis Response, Garrison Response, Support Response, Survey
Secondary Roles - Vanguard Line, Skirmish Line
Future Garrison Frigate:
Primary Roles - Crisis Response, Garrison Response, Support Response, Skirmish Line, Minesweeper
Secondary Roles - Fleet Scout, Survey, Vanguard Escort
Current Combat Frigate:
Primary Roles - Vanguard Escort, Skirmish Line, Support Response
Secondary Roles - Crisis Response, Combat Garrison Response, Minesweeper
Future Combat Frigate:
Primary Roles - Vanguard Escort, Interception, Support Response, Minesweeper
Secondary Roles - Crisis Response, Science/Combat Garrison Response, Skirmish Line
Science/Courier Frigate:
Primary Roles - Science/Diplomatic Garrison Response, Support Response, Survey, Fleet Scout, Minesweeper
Secondary Roles - Crisis Response, Skirmish Line
Obviously this isn't exhaustive or anything but is that along the right lines? Basically, we'd be looking at the role list and figuring out what roles don't have adequate ships assigned to them. I've used the example of the current Combat Frigate (Miranda-A) vs a potential future Combat Frigate design with S3 or S4 to indicate how new roles could be filled by an update.
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Those two are separate roles.
The Escort Frigate, which I've been calling the Flower, will be the one that escorts the fleet - cheap, sturdy, and efficient.
The Garrison Frigate will be the Centaur's successor. It will feature middling S and P, and will be our sector filler and backup scout.
There is very, very little agreement from the SDB thread on what these ships should be. Your roles are not the same as what other people are promoting. There's a clear argument that Starfleet may not require an "Escort Frigate" or "Combat Frigate" and may be better served with a multi-role frigate for about +10sr.
- Location
- somewhere
Along the right lines sure. There would be much that could be discussed about the details of them implementation but there probably isn't much point before we hear from Oneiros.
- Location
- Germany
[X][COUNCIL] 2317 Snakepit – Sydraxian Diplomacy, Shipyard Expansion, and Starfleet Reorg
[X][TECH] Inid Uttar Institute (Sk 3, Sensors / Propulsion)
[X][TECH] Henn-Makad Engineering Institute (Sk 3, Starbases / Minerals)
[X][AMB] Announce new Starfleet Ambition: Infrastructure Development
[X][TECH] Inid Uttar Institute (Sk 3, Sensors / Propulsion)
[X][TECH] Henn-Makad Engineering Institute (Sk 3, Starbases / Minerals)
[X][AMB] Announce new Starfleet Ambition: Infrastructure Development
ClawClawBite
Mad Engineering!
- Location
- Seattle, WA
Another idea for a starfleet objective: Building and deploying a Kepler to each border zone.
It is going to take up the first production run, but it gives us much better eyes on the powers in the area without bring an active provocation. It should be politically popular.
It is going to take up the first production run, but it gives us much better eyes on the powers in the area without bring an active provocation. It should be politically popular.
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
Excelsior-As are the best event response ships at twice the cost of any other ship (compared to our next most expensive ship the Rennie, it's 2.3x BR, 2x SR, 2x O, 1x E, 1.67x T, 1.33x build time, requires 2.5+ mt berths).
Depending on how we're doing on event response overall and how well our military/defense campaigns like GBZ are working out, I may be in favor of replacing an Excelsior-A build with cruisers, or simply saving the cost to help build a superior Ambassador.
This is true, but it's also negligible right now. 2.1x vs 2x route penalty in the industrial loop is unlikely to make a difference - at most a single cargo ship required a bit sooner. It's something to be worried about long-term, but that can be addressed in the long-term as well.
Okay that works for me. Don't have time at the moment to read all the past pages in detail, but this does achieve my goals.
[X][COUNCIL] 2317 Snakepit – Sydraxian Diplomacy, Shipyard Expansion, and Starfleet Reorg
edit: This does include the SF 3mt berth I objected to previously, but as I said before, I'm fine with it for narrative reasons - I just didn't think it was urgent to get this year. More so, getting both a Gaen and Ferasa shipyard would increase the industrial loop route penalty from 2x to 2.2x, which is starting to be more than "negligible".
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