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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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Briefvoice said:
So here's some preliminary thoughts on next year's Snakepit. We haven't found in colony sites in the also two quarters, though of course that could change. And with all the fuss, I'm assuming the long-awaited "expand auxiliary yards" option will appear.

[no vote] 2317 Snakepit – New Yards and Engineering Command

Based on 280 pp. Currently totals ~274

  • Request new Tech Team to be added to your Ship Design Bureau, 20pp [Analysis and Xenopsychology]
  • Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Ashidi]
  • Request Academy Development, 40pp (Gain +.5 Officers/Enlisted/Techs throughput)
  • Request new Shipyard at Amarkia, 33pp (12 turns, 1 3mt Berth, 1 1mt Berth)
  • Request Cruiser berth at Utopia Planitia, 11pp (6 turns, gain new 2m t berth) [Can take multiple times, +5pp per subsequent build]
  • Deploy Improved Listening Posts to a Border Zone to gain a 25% chance of generating +1 Intel report for powers on that border. (Sydraxian Border Zone), 20pp
  • Deploy Improved Listening Posts to a Border Zone to gain a 25% chance of generating +1 Intel report for powers on that border. (Klingon Border Zone), 20pp
  • Reorganise Starfleet Engineering Command to be a separate reporting Command that reports directly to Commander, Starfleet, 60pp
  • ADMITTED GUESSWORK – Expand Auxiliary Shipyards – 50 pp????
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Thoughts:
  • It feels a bit silly to optimise around 280pp when we know we'll almost certainly hit at least 400.
  • Do we already have Improved Listening Posts at the RBZ? Given they're at war, I suspect both sides would be less jumpy about us deploying them if they knew we were doing the same to their foe.
  • I think last time there were rumblings about paying the 70pp to buy the extra intel report - and come report time, those rumblings got louder
  • Given the rapid rate of growth, I'm in favour of bumping a post up a rank almost every year for the near future. Perhaps Shipyard Ops? It's arguably the most important department.
  • It'll never happen, but I've always wanted to see how a Budget Increase request would play out. Maybe if we specified SR?
 
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Forgothrax said:
Ugh. So we eat militarization no matter what if we want a new combat frigate.



THe biggest escort size is one Megaton on the tech tree for the next 20 years. Therefore, we can reasonably expect that we will be building all escorts in one Megaton berths for the conceivable future. Leaving all the one Megaton as they are and simply building to meet the 2mt demand means that we won't need to build any more escort size slips for the necessary future and can build as many 2mt as we need, instead of expanding our 1mt, them later building more 1s. I question the feasibility of doubling an expanding space over just building fresh, too.
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I'm not questioning the size of the escorts, but the next size up. If it costs 20% of the price of a 2mt berth to upsize an existing 1mt, why not do so? We have a number of 1mt berths sitting empty currently, we may as well increase their usefulness.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Thoughts:
  • It feels a bit silly to optimise around 280pp when we know we'll almost certainly hit at least 400.
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Um, I know no such thing. With expected EOY income we're currently at about 240, and I figure another couple of quarters of Captain's Logs, plus minor expenditures like this War Games battle will leave us at around 280.
Do we already have Improved Listening Posts at the RBZ? Given they're at war, I suspect both sides would be less jumpy about us deploying them if they knew we were doing the same to their foe.
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We do not.
I think last time there were rumblings about paying the 70pp to buy the extra intel report - and come report time, those rumblings got louder
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There sure were rumblings... and I think it's a bad idea and will argue against it unless we have nothing else to spend pp on.

Given the rapid rate of growth, I'm in favour of bumping a post up a rank almost every year for the near future. Perhaps Shipyard Ops? It's arguably the most important department.
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I view "Reorganizing Engineering Command" is this year's bumping up a post in rank.
 
Briefvoice said:
[no vote] 2317 Snakepit – New Yards and Engineering Command
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We should get the Proxima Eridani colony to hopefully reduce the multiplier on our feeder loop. Critical Infrastructure at Tellar, Andor or Apinae would probably reduce the multiplier for our industry loop, but probably isn't worth the investment. Shipyard expansions should be preferable to new shipyards since they become available much earlier (thus allowing us to assign them to auxiliary production), shouldn't increase the industry loop multiplier and shouldn't tie up an engineering team. We can build more shipyards to diversify and reduce towing distance for repairs when we have digged ourselves out of the current hole, war probably won't come any time soon anyway.
 
Nix said:
We should get the Proxima Eridani colony to hopefully reduce the multiplier on our feeder loop. Critical Infrastructure at Tellar, Andor or Apinae would probably reduce the multiplier for our industry loop, but probably isn't worth the investment. Shipyard expansions should be preferable to new shipyards since they become available much earlier (thus allowing us to assign them to auxiliary production), shouldn't increase the industry loop multiplier and shouldn't tie up an engineering team. We can build more shipyards to diversify and reduce towing distance for repairs when we have digged ourselves out of the current hole, war probably won't come any time soon anyway.
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I think you're going to have a tough argument for another Bulk Resources colony right now. I'm open to the idea of expanding shipyards instead, but which ones? I hate to just keep increasing the size of Utopia Planitia, but expansions aren't very cost effective anywhere else.
 
HearthBorn said:
I'm not questioning the size of the escorts, but the next size up. If it costs 20% of the price of a 2mt berth to upsize an existing 1mt, why not do so? We have a number of 1mt berths sitting empty currently, we may as well increase their usefulness.
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Right now, it's actually cheaper to build 2mt than 1mt berths. In 10 years, demand for 1mt space will be much much higher than at present (we will be just starting the second wave of Keplers and if we choose to do a combat frigate likely the first wave of those). There is literally no point to converting a 14pp berth into an 11pp berth for say 5pp... Especially when those 14pp berths are in demand. Since if they sit empty, that will just result in us sticking Auxiliary shipping into them.

We can just slowly expand our 2mt space at UP over time so that by the time we need a number of 2mt berths, like around 2328 or so(no more than 4, I would say) we have all the ones we need.
 
Briefvoice said:
Um, I know no such thing. With expected EOY income we're currently at about 240, and I figure another couple of quarters of Captain's Logs, plus minor expenditures like this War Games battle will leave us at around 280.
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We spent all but 5pp last Snakepit. We've had 2 quarters' worth of pp income since then - Q2 and Q3 - that brought in about 230. Given that we still have Q4 and 2317.Q1 to come, I doubled that, got 460 and rounded down hard to make the claim that we're very likely to hit 400pp.

Why do you think our pp income will be so much lower during this second half of the year between Snakepits? Did I miss a massive one-off increase that would account for the disparity?

EDIT: Whoops, brain-fart, wrote the wrong numbers.

Briefvoice said:
There sure were rumblings... and I think it's a bad idea and will argue against it unless we have nothing else to spend pp on.
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I disagree, and so did much of the thread, but starting an actual argument on a vote that isn't even close seems silly, so we'll agree to disagree.

Briefvoice said:
I view "Reorganizing Engineering Command" is this year's bumping up a post in rank.
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Fair enough, though I'm pretty hopeful some of those Vice Admiral positions will have some powerful bonuses attached.
 
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@OneirosTheWriter have you considered the results of my thought exercise on a military-drive (aka twice as fast therefore twice as much capacity) freighter? Alternatively, given that the base hulls for our Auxiliaries are likely 50+ years old and I doubt the freighters are newer, would there be a point in updating the designs? I should think that at minimum we can get similar performance either cheaper or using less interior space, thus increasing cargo space.
 
[X][ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]
[X][REPORT] Improving the Cardassian Readiness report
 
Briefvoice said:
I think you're going to have a tough argument for another Bulk Resources colony right now. I'm open to the idea of expanding shipyards instead, but which ones? I hate to just keep increasing the size of Utopia Planitia, but expansions aren't very cost effective anywhere else.
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Not just "another" BR colony, the one I argued we should have been picking ahead of all those other ones that we actually selected for the past several years, specifically for logistic reasons. Picking the highest income colonies regardless of location instead was a mistake and part of the reason we have such a high route multiplier now.

A single extra 1mt berth at Anna Font and/or Lor'Vela isn't too bad cost wise (cheaper than the Indoria shipyard at least), and an argument could be made for a second 3mt berth at SFFY to allow paired builds. But mostly UP, IMO we should pick the development option every other year or so and we didn't pick it last year.
 
Briefvoice said:
Guys, maybe we should consider a Starbase at Tales Har.
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Either there or Lagh Chegh.

Both cover that Amarkia<->Tellar link. Lagh Chegh is simply a little more centered on the route and doesn't double up quite as bad on the Amarkia star base.

We could always put one at each colony, considering that backbone is our most crucial logistics link, it wouldn't be unprecedented nor unwelcome.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
We spent all but 5pp last Snakepit. We've had 2 quarters' worth of pp income since then - Q2 and Q3 - that brought in about 230. Given that we still have Q4 and 2317.Q1 to come, I doubled that, got 460 and rounded down hard to make the claim that we're very likely to hit 400pp.

Why do you think our pp income will be so much lower during this second half of the year between Snakepits? Did I miss a massive one-off increase that would account for the disparity?

EDIT: Whoops, brain-fart, wrote the wrong numbers.
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I still have no idea what you're talking about.

Consulting the Boldly Go Audit Ledger, we got 120 pp since the Snakepit. This includes what I have to view as a particularly lucky/abnormal Q2 (60pp from CLs is not normal; Q3 gave us 30pp) plus the Gaen ratification for 25 pp. So 120 + EOY income 124 = 244. The only question is what we get from Q4 and Q1 CL. I admit +40 pp is maybe low-balling it a bit, being conservative, but it's probably not hugely off.
 
Briefvoice said:
I still have no idea what you're talking about.

Consulting the Boldly Go Audit Ledger, we got 120 pp since the Snakepit. This includes what I have to view as a particularly lucky/abnormal Q2 (60pp from CLs is not normal; Q3 gave us 30pp) plus the Gaen ratification for 25 pp. So 120 + EOY income 124 = 244. The only question is what we get from Q4 and Q1 CL. I admit +40 pp is maybe low-balling it a bit, being conservative, but it's probably not hugely off.
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There's also completing our ambition, which could be another 25-50pp (or something else), and meeting the science target (likewise).
 
Briefvoice said:
I still have no idea what you're talking about.

Consulting the Boldly Go Audit Ledger, we got 120 pp since the Snakepit. This includes what I have to view as a particularly lucky/abnormal Q2 (60pp from CLs is not normal; Q3 gave us 30pp) plus the Gaen ratification for 25 pp. So 120 + EOY income 124 = 244. The only question is what we get from Q4 and Q1 CL. I admit +40 pp is maybe low-balling it a bit, being conservative, but it's probably not hugely off.
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...So our current pp total is ~125, not 257. I was working off of the threadmarked resource page, not the spreadsheet, which says very different things.

Apologies for the confusion. Where do I go to see current resource totals? There's a lot of numbers on that spreadsheet, but I don't think any of them are just our current numbers?

EDIT: Or is it just EOY, which isn't really EOY until we actually reach the end of the year?
EDIT 2: I would also love to know where we're keeping track of Current Science and Current Defence. Do we have a sheet anywhere that just consolidates all the important up-to-date numbers?
 
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Chaos Blade said:
Do note that if anybody starts using offensive mining...
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I think there's good reason to doubt whether offensive mining is likely to work in this game. Minelayers aren't magically immune to detection and interception while laying mines. And to mine effectively, a ship has to fly for a long time through a very large volume, dispersing the mines, OR fly very close to a key facility, likewise, dispersing mines.

In the former case, the ship has to loiter in an area a long time and is vulnerable to interception- plus if you're not an idiot, you'll just reroute your convoy around the area an enemy ship is known to have spent days laying mines.

In the latter case, it would be more efficient to just pick the mines up bodily and throw them at the key installation, blowing it to smithereens. The offensive mining reduces to an inefficient and very passive-aggressive form of infrastructure raiding, which can be countered using all the normal tactics we'd use to defend against a raid.

HearthBorn said:
I'm not questioning the size of the escorts, but the next size up. If it costs 20% of the price of a 2mt berth to upsize an existing 1mt, why not do so? We have a number of 1mt berths sitting empty currently, we may as well increase their usefulness.
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It looks as though two-megaton berths are going to cost us something like 15-20 political will outside of Utopia Planitia. It is very unlikely that we can 'upgrade' (read, completely dismantle and reconstruct from scratch) our existing one-megaton berths for "20% of the price" in that case, because that would be about 3-4pp.

I think you're being very optimistic about the ease of upgrading a berth.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
...So our current pp total is ~125, not 257. I was working off of the threadmarked resource page, not the spreadsheet, which says very different things.

Apologies for the confusion. Where do I go to see current resource totals? There's a lot of numbers on that spreadsheet, but I don't think any of them are just our current numbers?

EDIT: Or is it just EOY, which isn't really EOY until we actually reach the end of the year?
EDIT 2: I would also love to know where we're keeping track of Current Science and Current Defence. Do we have a sheet anywhere that just consolidates all the important up-to-date numbers?
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The EOY row for the current year is "what the EOY would be if nothing further happens", yes.
You can see current fleet science and defence on the fleet tab of the shipbuilding spreadsheet.
 
Simon_Jester said:
I think there's good reason to doubt whether offensive mining is likely to work in this game. Minelayers aren't magically immune to detection and interception while laying mines. And to mine effectively, a ship has to fly for a long time through a very large volume, dispersing the mines, OR fly very close to a key facility, likewise, dispersing mines.
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At least as Starfleet doctrines currently hold, however, it is likely that said stratagem would be viable to be used by cloaked vessels. Just leave the docking bay open with the force field on while cloaked, and push the mines out the back.
 
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