Just to ask the question, but would either/both of these options be for the good of the federation (NOT Starfleet, but the people we defend), regardless of the politics involved?

I think Peacekeepers is in fact good for the Federation. An office under the Council for organizing existing military and peacekeeping troops structures, similar to our MWCO, might in fact be useful.

The wording on the logistics proposal suggests that after the construction surge to get us out of the hole, the members will sign an agreement to keep up our logistics fleet. So it's paying 150pp to make the problem go away forever. I feel that may be good enough to be for the good of the Federation.
 
Both listed plans included multiple expansions in Sol using less efficient options.
Earth vs. Mars, perhaps?

/shrug

I think N'Ger is trying to flip Earth's seat.

The wording on the logistics proposal suggests that after the construction surge to get us out of the hole, the members will sign an agreement to keep up our logistics fleet. So it's paying 150pp to make the problem go away forever. I feel that may be good enough to be for the good of the Federation.
I disagree. I would rather have it be a Starfleet concern.

We can work on dealing with it on our terms, slowly.
 
I think "make the problem go away forever" may be overly optimistic, SWB.

Just to ask the question, but would either/both of these options be for the good of the federation (NOT Starfleet, but the people we defend), regardless of the politics involved?
First? Possibly.

Second? No.

A peacekeeper force would be good, but I'm not willing to sacrifice that much, not to mention the political consequences.

Meanwhile, while logistics is good, it's a purely political move, and inefficient as a result. See: All of those UP expansions we could get instead, auxiliary berths and/or other shiny projects.
You could reasonably argue that it is inherently better for the Federation at large to use Federation resources to stimulate local shipbuilding economies by leasing space in member world berths, than to just keep endlessly building up the Utopia Planitia yard which primarily benefits Sol and Sol alone.

If I were in N'Gir's shoes I would have approached Sulu and solicited his input on a range of plans for increased freighter construction. The plan we're actually being 'offered' would be one of several.
 
[X][PEACE] Upset the apple cart
[X][CARGO] Avoid

At this point if N'Gir offered to buy us a beer I would probably turn her down.
 
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Um I am not sure I understand your point Briefvoice? Wouldn't the aux yards continue building Freighters and Cargo ships after they launch their first wave? Because I thought the Yards would continually build the Ships as our transport needs grow

Edit: I was referring to the Next Snakepit since Oneiros said that we was going to put the option to build more of the Aux Shipyards. I was suggesting we would Build three Aux yards at the locations where they can best be used.

I was thinking, given civilian ships aren't built to star fleet specifications and are far less performing, they might be also less enduring, the end result would be they will spend X yardtime per year or that you need X slips per N Civilian ships just to keep them at a reasonable level of operation.
So... expanding our logistic tail, would need for us to increase the number of yards both to build and maintain them (aux yards mostly)

Not sure if this is how it would go, but it is a reasonable assumption, so if they not only build but maintain, we'd need to slowly increase the number of slips/yards as we increase the number of hulls...
 
Just to ask the question, but would either/both of these options be for the good of the federation (NOT Starfleet, but the people we defend), regardless of the politics involved?

The peacekeeping corps? Maybe. Problem is that such a unified command would greatly simplify military adventurism, which would be bad for the Federation. The fact that any reasonable number of ground pounders need to come directly from member planet's military and law enforcement organisations is a major check on the Federal government's ability to try and conquer other nations. Or bits of those nations anyway.

The cargo capacity surge is simply highly inefficient compared to expanding general Starfleet shipyards or building another dedicated auxiliary yard, maybe two.
 
I was just thinking about it, but could you imagine having to deal with the setup for that peacekeeping force? It would be an entire new branch of the academy requiring vastly different officer training and setup.

Not to mention setting up entire officer branches from nothing.

Most of starfleet is pretty interchangeable. MACO just isn't really.
 
I was just thinking about it, but could you imagine having to deal with the setup for that peacekeeping force? It would be an entire new branch of the academy requiring vastly different officer training and setup.

Not to mention setting up entire officer branches from nothing.

Most of starfleet is pretty interchangeable. MACO just isn't really.
And where does the initial force come from?

These are more reasons why we shouldn't.
 
I'm actually annoyed it goes 'reverse if refused' on these options for electoral share. That doesn't make sense to me. Presumably Development would be gaining electoral share because its enacting policies popular with the people voting for Councilors, so I'm not sure how the proposals getting rejected would, in fact, shift balance to the other side. I guess it's because people think the other party would actually make it happen? Which means Pacifist voters are likely in favor of the Peacekeepers. This makes particular sense when you look at why Development would gain from the Expansionists if we are Logistics-independent, which seems a very Expansionist goal.

I'm going to take a highly contrarian view here on the Peacekeepers.

[X][PEACE] Go along with the deal

I think a lot of people are taking an old-school guy like Sulu too much at his word and mixing way too ideology into this. I think y'all are ignoring the harsh lessons of recent events too much as well to preserve a weird EU/Early United States conception of the Federation that frankly, just doesn't fit. We need to act like a Federation and not a Confederation.

We are seeing problems with the Caledonians having trouble keeping the peace, because the people they're peacekeeping are dissidents who hate the central government. The same goes for the Seyek and Fiiral. And while the Orions accepted the deployment of a bunch of member world units to their planet out of desperation, it's very hopeful that will be true in the future. It makes sense that they'll accept Starfleet as neutral mediators, and peacekeepers as exactly that -- neutral blue helmets to keep law and order and separate the two sides.

Starfleet has a good reputation. It's seen as neutral, it's full of every different species so you can't say it's biased one way or another, and it coordinates solutions to problems like this. As we expand, and more things like dissidents and subversive organizations like in the Caitian logistics corps come up, we're going to need a neutral organization that can be deployed to keep the peace and assist central governments in stabilizing. Ones that can assist in preventing things from spiralling out of control. We're going to have at least two outright problematic groups joining in the next few years -- Seyek and Caledonians -- and two possible problematics as well, the Orions and Gaeni. All of these possible members suffer from deep internal divisions, and pretending their central governments are going to be able to solve this when the internal division is often a mistrust in that is idealistic.

We need to look ahead to 2330, when we're going to have a shitton of new members who are new to this Federation thing and not the stable, norm-established and well-developed Original Four. Saying this isn't Starfleet's job seems naive -- we've basically been doing it ad-hoc for a long time, it's time to get serious about it because this will become a major, pressing issue. I am not at all confident that the member militaries of the Tellarites, Andorians, Amarkians, Humans, Vulcans, whoever are going to continue to be seen as sufficiently neutral for this purpose, nor do I think we should rely on them as a sort of leash on our power.

On the other hand:

[X][CARGO] Avoid

I'm opposed mostly due to the Expansionist loss. If it weren't for that, I'd vote for it. I think people are way too overblown about the ideological idea to keep the logistics corps under member control as another leash and I don't want to really open up the logistics system in general, so having N'Gir NPC-handle that for us works. I also suspect if we reject her here, we piss her off and then when we later do it anyways, as some are predicting, we'll just give her a delayed electoral boost anyways.
 
As a reminder; canonically Star Trek ground forces operate on the scale of hundreds of thousands to millions per side per planet.

I'm worried about skill dilution across the fleet from all the techs and support peeps that we will have to provide.

[X][PEACE] Upset the apple cart

[X][CARGO] Agree
 
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And where does the initial force come from?

These are more reasons why we shouldn't.
Eh, we could probably pull together an initial force drawn from all over the Federation and use it as the nucleus to train more and more volunteers.

The peacekeeping force is doable, it's just probably not something we actually want.

I'm actually annoyed it goes 'reverse if refused' on these options for electoral share. That doesn't make sense to me. Presumably Development would be gaining electoral share because its enacting policies popular with the people voting for Councilors, so I'm not sure how the proposals getting rejected would, in fact, shift balance to the other side. I guess it's because people think the other party would actually make it happen? Which means Pacifist voters are likely in favor of the Peacekeepers. This makes particular sense when you look at why Development would gain from the Expansionists if we are Logistics-independent, which seems a very Expansionist goal.
I think it may have to do with a combination of party prestige and swing voters.

As in, there are probably a lot of swing voters not strongly aligned with one of the parties. Their votes are determined by a combination of factors. This often includes local issues, or very specific local takes on Federation-wide issues. Furthermore, major accomplishments by one party tend to redound to the credit of that party when voters go to the polls, so doing something big that most Federation citizens approve of will increase turnout in your favor, and decrease turnout for the parties that were opposed.

If the peacekeepers are popular in the specific council districts where N'Gir is hoping to 'flip' things, that may well be enough to earn Development another seat or two, regardless of whether the peacekeepers are popular on a Federation-wide level.

I'm opposed mostly due to the Expansionist loss. If it weren't for that, I'd vote for it. I think people are way too overblown about the ideological idea to keep the logistics corps under member control as another leash and I don't want to really open up the logistics system in general, so having N'Gir NPC-handle that for us works. I also suspect if we reject her here, we piss her off and then when we later do it anyways, as some are predicting, we'll just give her a delayed electoral boost anyways.
I haven't actually heard much about "logistics as leash" in this discussion. The main prevailing objections are (1) that it feeds N'Gir political capital at the expense of Starfleet and its closest political allies, and (2) that it's not even a very efficient way to achieve the desired result.
 
I think it's telling that one of the arguments against the peacekeeping force is:
I'm told some of them have long memories of the MACOs, after all.

My theory as to what happened to the MACOs is simple; Colonel West. In all of Star Trek the only Federation associated group I can think of with army style ranks instead of navel ones were the MACOs. If the MACOs, more then just Colonel West anyway, were revealed to have backed Admiral Cartwright's conspiracy I could easily see that being used as a justification to shutting them down.

It would also explain why some of the older councilors are unhappy with the idea of them being brought back. It even helps with why Sulu in particular was so strongly against the idea.
 
Look if they want federation peacekeepers than they should setup a separate branch of much like how the FDS is separate from Starfleet but will still call on Starfleet resources from time to time.
 
Also I find it highly hypocritical to go "We can't make peacekeepers and we can't have independant logistics or Starfleet will be too powerful" and then actively oppose the fucking president.
 
[x][PEACE] Upset the apple cart

No. Mission creep bad. Bad kitty. No fishies.

I can go either way on the other bit, especially a sop to N'Gir, so I'm not voting on that.
 
No. Mission creep bad. Bad kitty. No fishies.
it isn't mission creep though! Part of our job is to keep the peace in and between members. Arguably we should have had a Peacekeeper unit at game start, it might have helped avoid incidents like the riot that the Winterwind had to deal with.

Honestly my big concern with the peacekeepers isn't anything about mission creep or the concern somehow we'll be too independant of the member worlds, it's that we'll be ill-equipped at our current tech level. N'gir should throw in some personal equipment teams or just give us frontier battalion equipment.
 
I mean. Relying on the member worlds to supply peacekeepers could run into issues when a species that is best suited, be it due to proximity and/or doctrine, to respond to the conflict doesn't want to get involved/is part of the issue/isn't trusted by the local actors.

There's also the logistic side of things whether our prefered member force has enough manpower to deal with the relevant issues and is able to to get to the hotspots in time from their home sectors.
 
Also I find it highly hypocritical to go "We can't make peacekeepers and we can't have independant logistics or Starfleet will be too powerful" and then actively oppose the fucking president.
Almost no one is arguing that independent logistics would make Starfleet "too powerful."

Some people are arguing that the peacekeepers would make Starfleet "too powerful" in the long run, but that once we have them, the temptation to use them in ways beyond the comparatively minimal peacekeeping Starfleet already does will grow. Right now, Starfleet mediates disputes between homeworld and rebellious colony works, because we lack the firepower to physically sit on both sides and demand their compliance with our preferred solution. And the advantage of this is that the homeworlds can't just call us in to break a mining strike or otherwise enforce their dominance at the expense of the colonies.

With a big enough peacekeeper force, we're far more likely to start adopting solutions like "suppress the rebels," which are superficially appealing but lead to problems in the long run.
 
One advantage your lifetime of adventure has given you is that you get a certain deference from the Amarkian contingent to Council. Which leads to opportunities like today. "You're here about the President's plans for the Starfleet peacekeeping force?"

I am amused by the implication that Sulu can charm the Amarkians by telling some old adventure stories, because culturally they're suckers for that sort of thing.
 
Almost no one is arguing that independent logistics would make Starfleet "too powerful."

Some people are arguing that the peacekeepers would make Starfleet "too powerful" in the long run, but that once we have them, the temptation to use them in ways beyond the comparatively minimal peacekeeping Starfleet already does will grow. Right now, Starfleet mediates disputes between homeworld and rebellious colony works, because we lack the firepower to physically sit on both sides and demand their compliance with our preferred solution. And the advantage of this is that the homeworlds can't just call us in to break a mining strike or otherwise enforce their dominance at the expense of the colonies.

With a big enough peacekeeper force, we're far more likely to start adopting solutions like "suppress the rebels," which are superficially appealing but lead to problems in the long run.
I think that's more a problem of voting intent than peacekeeping design. If we want to vote to simply suppress the rebels that's on us. Also the Orion campaign was basically an extended series of 'suppress the rebels' votes. That's what we were there to do. We sicc'd the Amarki on a capital city in brutal urban combat, even.

In terms of sitting and mediating, I'll note that in the Winterwind incident, we lost like, 50 people, and then we sat back while the heavily militarized Caldonians beamed down and conducted orbital strikes to handle the rest. I know the Caldonian dissidents weren't exactly pallys with us in the first place, but I can't imagine that Caldonian troopers were seen by them as being 'better'. Or for that matter, an entire foreign species occupying your world. At least with Starfleet it's a mix of everyone.
 
I'm actually annoyed it goes 'reverse if refused' on these options for electoral share. That doesn't make sense to me. Presumably Development would be gaining electoral share because its enacting policies popular with the people voting for Councilors, so I'm not sure how the proposals getting rejected would, in fact, shift balance to the other side. I guess it's because people think the other party would actually make it happen? Which means Pacifist voters are likely in favor of the Peacekeepers. This makes particular sense when you look at why Development would gain from the Expansionists if we are Logistics-independent, which seems a very Expansionist goal.

This would be a result of N'Gir making a gamble and, seems like, about to lose it all. She believes she has the political influence to make it happen; not having it and getting it shoved so bluntly in her face that she doesn't have it makes her and the Development faction look bad, incompetent and unable to read the political situation.

Also, Pacifists would, if anything, be the least likely to vote in favour of the Peacekeepers; Starfleet was divested of its ground pounder arm for a reason, which have been mentioned in this thread before, and the Pacifists support those reasons.

The reason the Development faction would gain on these policies is because most likely President N'Gir has done a lot of political horsetrading leading up to this and she can spin this in a way that strengthens her position and weakens a specific party's by absconding with part of their voting base, or making their voting base distrust them.

I think that's more a problem of voting intent than peacekeeping design. If we want to vote to simply suppress the rebels that's on us. Also the Orion campaign was basically an extended series of 'suppress the rebels' votes. That's what we were there to do. We sicc'd the Amarki on a capital city in brutal urban combat, even.

The important bit being that we dropped the Amarki on a capital city in brutal urban combat. The idea with keeping Starfleet dependent on member world militaries is to keep Starfleet from becoming an integrated military threat that decides it can act perfectly well on its own thank you very much.

Likewise could we never have pulled off the Orion Campaign without both the Orions themselves having finally had enough of the Syndicate and hypercorporations as well as the member nations deciding 'you know what, breaking an oligarchy made up of slavers that have been running off with our people and robbing our ships sounds like a great idea.'
 
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