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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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I guess one reason we can get the (almost) whole Library which is a very good deal is the abundance of litterate and available Eonir willing to scribe for the queen. So copying books might be cheaper for the Eonir than other polities. Might be preferable for the Queen over giving away valuable currency or trade goods that could be used elsewere.

Giving away the books to a reliable research partner in exchange for priceless relics is also a show of cooperation that goes beyond a simple commercial exchange into a truly strategic mutually benefitial exchange. Priceless relics for priceless knowledge, we both get out of this stronger at little cost. We give away scraps and the Eonir give away the time of their numerous idle litterate citizens. Win-Win!
 
Prime 2.0 said:
It's part of their wargaming and warplanning records, presumably. A reminder that "restricted topics" is going to include military theory and history, since boney specifically had to point out that particular military secret as exempt from the purchase.

This deal is so good lmao.
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They might not restrict military history. I don't think the culture around it during this sort of time period really considers it as a militarily relevant subject to be kept secret (although history detailign, like, secret weapons would be).
 
[X] [ITHILMAR] Ithilmar armor for Mathilde.
Because it's cool and not getting enough attention.
[X] [ITHILMAR] Trade Goods
Because owning the biggest trade company in the Empire is a worthy and totally vow compatible thing
[X] [ITHILMAR] A copy of the Library of Mournings, including most restricted texts.
Cause magic books. You gotta have magic wood elf books for your spider librarians, or they won't have enough enrichment.

[X] Witch Hunter
It's the social option i really want that's most likely to not make it festival lord or Sarvoi are both good.
Don't really need to vote for Mandred or the initiate.
[X] Baba Niedzwecka
Always vote for baba
 
deathofrats0808 said:
They might not restrict military history. I don't think the culture around it during this sort of time period really considers it as a militarily relevant subject to be kept secret (although history detailign, like, secret weapons would be).
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No, it absolutely is. Military history - like, the actual details and planning and rationale as opposed to the propaganda - were basically state secrets, because that's what they study to prepare for and plan modern war, and if somebody has that then they can make much better predictions about and plans against you.

This is still true today, to an extent. A state's actual point of view during and about a conflict gets classified as a rule, often only coming out half a century or more after the fact. You don't always know what will be important to keep secret in advance, so you do it by default.

And when speaking just of the quest... recall that the military history written in the liber mortis was just as table flipping as the magical lore to mathilde's life and adventures - some might argue it was even more so. It wasn't knowledge of necromancy that made taking back K8P during waaagh birdmuncher possible, but rather Mathilde's ill-gotten knowledge of skaven strategy and thought. More than just a numeric bonus to her leadership rolls, those insights were key to even attempting to play the skaven clans against each other. So it also went for her alternation of terror tactics and pincer assaults.

Thanks to that history and her captive she knew them, while they didn't know her. As Sun Tzu might say, a thousand do-overs would not have changed the victor of that clash.

So sure, some token, surface-level mil-history is probably unrestricted. But expect almost all of the stuff that'd actually be worth studying to be under lock and key if this deal isn't made. It really is that important to Laurelorn.
 
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[X] The Festival Lord

I can't believe that with everything else I almost missed the Elf Olympics

[X] Swordplay
[X] Sarvoi
[X] Initiate
[X] Dooming and Quickening
[X] Entrance Examination
[X] Druchii Diplomats
[X] Witch Hunter


[X] [ITHILMAR] Books, primarily restricted books on magic with everything else secondary.
[X] [ITHILMAR] A copy of the Library of Mournings, including most restricted texts.
 
[X] [ITHILMAR] Trade Goods
[X] [ITHILMAR] Books, primarily restricted books on magic with everything else secondary.
[X] Dooming and Quickening
[X] Initiate
[X] Entrance Examination
[X] Witch Hunter
[X] Skull River Ambush
 
Prime 2.0 said:
No, it absolutely is. Military history - like, the actual details and planning and rationale as opposed to the propaganda - were basically state secrets, because that's what they study to prepare for and plan modern war, and if somebody has that then they can make much better predictions and preparations for you.

This is still true today, to an extent. A state's actual point of view during and about a conflict gets classified as a rule, often only coming out half a century or more after the fact. You don't always know what will be important to keep secret in advance, so you do it by default.

So yeah, some mil-history would be unrestricted. But expect almost all of the stuff that'd be actually useful to learn from to be under lock and key if this deal isn't made.
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I think you are vastly overestimating both the amount of planning that is applicable to this kind of warfare (which basically comes down to, you guys stand here, you guys stand here, shoot these ones first if you see them), the amount of that that is written down, and frankly the amount people think you need to hide about this stuff.

Like, the Empire doesn't have a military academy. Pretty much no one does. There's no rigourous analysis of how the enemy fought or what tactics or strategies were successful. At this point, I'd expect most military history to be retellings (all somewhat propagandised) or memoirs. The sort of thing you'd want to keep a secret just largely doesn't exist.
 
[X] [ITHILMAR] A copy of the Library of Mournings, including most restricted texts.

I almost voted for EIC out of spite and loyalty, but ultimately what I want most is to double and triple down on the library legacy we are leaving. I feel like Larelorn is going to get sacked at some point, and having a copy of their knowledge lets them regrow.

Plus, I would LOVE to be able to talk to loremasters and see their faces when we have better reference texts available than the tower of holth.

[X] Swordplay
[X] Sarvoi
 
deathofrats0808 said:
I think you are vastly overestimating both the amount of planning that is applicable to this kind of warfare (which basically comes down to, you guys stand here, you guys stand here, shoot these ones first if you see them), the amount of that that is written down, and frankly the amount people think you need to hide about this stuff.

Like, the Empire doesn't have a military academy. Pretty much no one does. There's no rigourous analysis of how the enemy fought or what tactics or strategies were successful. At this point, I'd expect most military history to be retellings (all somewhat propagandised) or memoirs. The sort of thing you'd want to keep a secret just largely doesn't exist.
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My brother, I literally cited the liber mortis, an actual book that mathilde has read, as my example. That it was a diary rather than any sort of military academy textbook didn't change the enormity of its impact.

Will the elven military theory texts be as impactful for us as the liber mortis? Probably not! I don't expect mathilde to command or fight against the Eonir. Would it be a disaster for Laurelorn if those military texts landed in the wrong hands such that they'd want to restrict access to them? Obviously yes.

The notion that strategically important military history texts either don't exist or won't exist in the elven super library is kind of absurd even before I point out that boney confirmed there are specific war planning documents against nordland in there as an example of what mil-texts would be withheld.
 
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deathofrats0808 said:
Like, the Empire doesn't have a military academy. Pretty much no one does. There's no rigourous analysis of how the enemy fought or what tactics or strategies were successful. At this point, I'd expect most military history to be retellings (all somewhat propagandised) or memoirs. The sort of thing you'd want to keep a secret just largely doesn't exist.
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Looks over at the Aquila Academies, Bergo Academy, and Diesdorf Military College

They're definitely not at the standards of the modern ones we actually know, but there are in fact academies whose main purpose is 'military training' in-setting.
 
The empire is also, by necessity, much better at military matters then "contemporary" real world powers. Warhammer necessitates that your armies are up to snuff fighting a variety of enemies in a variety of places with a variety of allies.
 
Prime 2.0 said:
My brother, I literally cited the liber mortis, an actual book that mathilde has read, as my example. That it was a diary rather than any sort of military academy textbook didn't change the enormity of its impact.

Will the elven military theory texts be as impactful for us as the liber mortis? Probably not! I don't expect mathilde to command or fight against the Eonir. Would it be a disaster for Laurelorn if those military texts landed in the wrong hands such that they'd want to restrict access to them? Obviously yes.

The notion that strategically important military history texts either don't exist or won't exist in the elven super library is kind of absurd even before I point out that boney confirmed there are specific war planning documents against nordland in there as an example of what mil-texts would be withheld.
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Sure. But the Liber Mortis isn't something that would be classified, if it wasn't for the fact it had a whole bunch of necromancy in it. Further, it provided Mathidle with zero bonuses to either commanding Imperial forces or defeating them. Which would indicate any Eonir books to do the same, and provide bonuses to fight Beastmen and maybe Imperials? And therefore are unlikely to be somehtign the Eonir care to hide.

There's a hell of a difference between "these are our plans in case Nordland invades" (although frankly their plan is pretty fucking obvious, because it's to use the forest to whittle them down over time and then face them in an all out battle before they reach the city if said wearing down doesn't work with perhaps "ask the Grey Lords to obliterate them" as a possible backup. We can tell because that's literally half the reason they kicked Nordland out as soon as they could) and "no military history at all, even though most of it is personal memoirs or records saying 'x people fought at the battle of y, z many died'". War planning documents aren't going to be classified as history! I certainly wasn't thinking of those, becasue you said military history, which is not the same thing!

Parabola said:
Looks over at the Aquila Academies, Bergo Academy, and Diesdorf Military College

They're definitely not at the standards of the modern ones we actually know, but there are in fact academies whose main purpose is 'military training' in-setting.
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I mean, that's fair, i hadn't really clarified what I was talking about but still.

I'm not sure the Bergo Academy has been founded, Diesdorf is only about 50 years old, and is primarily for raising 'mustang' officers and the Aquila Academies are a front for the Knights of Magritta to recruit people to go fight Araby. Further, none of said academies are either required, nor even seem to be supported by the Empire's actual military in the form of the State Troops. They exist, sure, but I'm not sure that they're really popular or in fact do the kind of analysis on past warfare that Prime is talking about. What few officers exist just aren't expected or required to take charge in a way that would require that kind of strategic thinking.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
Sure. But the Liber Mortis isn't something that would be classified, if it wasn't for the fact it had a whole bunch of necromancy in it. Further, it provided Mathidle with zero bonuses to either commanding Imperial forces or defeating them. Which would indicate any Eonir books to do the same, and provide bonuses to fight Beastmen and maybe Imperials? And therefore are unlikely to be somehtign the Eonir care to hide.
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So, first of all, the <Faction> Tactics and Strategy traits are for bonuses and options while commanding OR fighting <Faction>. The liber mortis gave us the those traits for both undead and Skaven.

If it's not clear, the purpose of my post was to explain why the military history texts would be valuable for the Eonir to keep secret. The equivalent texts that give you "strategy/tactics: Eonir" would, in fact, be extraordinarily useful to Nordland leading imperial armies to fight Laurelorn. This is sufficient reason for the Queen to want them to be classified.

The skaven did not own the liber mortis, so they did not get a say in why or whether or not it was kept secret. It suffices to say that even if the skaven weren't Like That, that they would definitely want the military history buried somewhere no enemy of the under-empire could ever find it.

...And also the empire keeps the existence of the skaven themselves secret, of course the skaven war history is part of why it's classified. Hell, the thesis behind the conspiracy of silence may well have been informed by that same book! Two is peace, remember?

As for history versus theory, as the liber mortis itself demonstrates the two blend together a lot in practice. The internal, all-details story of a how a war was fought necessarily includes the doctrine and rationale behind the choices the subject of that history made during that war, something you can only properly understand with some grounding in their theories of war - and the lessons of those stories themselves become part of and are there to illustrate the theories of war which emerged after.

Also no I'm pretty sure general library bonuses to command exist. I haven't checked, admittedly, but even if not it seems pretty likely that a spellcaster-heavy polity's war theory will have some generally useful information about using spellcasters in war.
 
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I should have expected the thread being unable to resist getting more books. Think of the economy! :D

[X] [ITHILMAR] Trade Goods

[X] Initiate
[X] Entrance Examination
[X] Dooming and Quickening
[X] Druchii Diplomats
[X] Reading on Nehekhara
[X] Witch Hunter
[X] Sarvoi
[X] Niedzwenka
 
Prime 2.0 said:
Also no I'm pretty sure general library bonuses to command exist. I haven't checked, admittedly, but even if not it seems pretty likely that a spellcaster-heavy polity's war theory will have some generally useful information about using spellcasters in war.
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Alright, went back to check, did some edits to my post for accuracy, and after a brief skim this is what I came up with for traits that may see impact:
Boney said:
Strategy: You know the basics of planning and executing a military campaign. +1 Martial
...
Strategy - Wizards (1/3)
...
Tactics: - Wizards (1/3)
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Wizards more likely than the general strategy trait, but I imagine a plurality of race-specific doctrines makes improving the general trait easier. There may be more applicable stuff in the library listing, but I haven't found it yet. Will edit when I get there.

EDIT: Here we go.
Boney said:
War and Combat
Greatswords +10 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Bretonnian / Extensive Dwarven / Tilean (T)
Logistics +1 - Skaven
Strategy +2 - Extensive Imperial
Tactics +3 - Extensive Imperial / Skaven
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We'll probably get modest Eonir bonuses to all three major military theory categories there, and maybe some greatswords too, though I personally don't picture elves when I think of greatswords so I'm not sure I'd place any bets on that last one.

That said, this is JUST for specifically military texts, not magic topics or other miscellanea that just happen to have military applications. The magic topics list is... really, really long.

Like, wow.

Did you know we have a library bonus just about apparitions?
Boney said:
Apparitions +5 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial
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And Mathilde thinks the Eonir also know things about apparitions, and apparition binding! We have a social vote option right now for asking Sarvoi about it, and unlike in the empire they won't have daemon fearmongering about it so we might get some books about them!

In addition to the rest of their magical theory. And a lot of divine lore. And military theory.

This book purchase is maybe bigger in the numbers-go-up sense than I was giving it credit for, even if I'm still in it mainly for the narrative elements.
 
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[x] Initiate
[x] Dooming and Quickening
[x] Witch Hunter
[x] Entrance Examination
[x] Sarvoi
[x] Reading on Nehekhara
 
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Retrueno said:
Thinking about Nehekara, wouldn't the Library of Mournings have books about them? I mean they have books older than Caledor Dragontamer so it'd make sense for them to have such books?
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They'd have books covering the earlier history of Khemri, but they'd be the same books Ulthuan has rather than anything unique to them. The War of the Beard kicked off around the beginning of the 3rd Dynasty, when Nagash was an infant, and Laurelorn hasn't really been keeping tabs on international events since then.

Shard said:
You know, I was wondering. Would Ulthuan books be [Ulthuan] or would they be distinct by each Kingdom?
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They'd be the same category. The different Kingdoms don't really have completely different insights about their specialties, just a deeper understanding of them than the others. The deeper end of, say, the Horse topic would be dominated by books written by Ellyrians.

MrHobbit said:
I wonder if this room could be used to recharge the Anvil runes. If I had to guess it was something thought of back during the Golden Age, but they didn't need Anvil runes so much that they wanted to take magic from the power supply for the Ancestor works.
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A chamber with one gravity source and eight types of energy that repel each other works out pretty simply. Add a rival pole and you have to invent a new field of physics to understand how it will all move, which would be a huge problem for people without any native Windsight. And if you've got the required level of understanding of how the Winds move around it's probably a whole lot easier to find an outlet and plug your Runes into that.
 
Parabola said:
It's kind and merciful of the Eonir to not include their wargames in the list of things they'd be copying. It'd be crippling to Mathilde's workflow if every turn when she got her EIC paycheck she had to make a Piety saving throw to not spend it all on elaborately detailed and handcarved miniatures.
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picklepikkl said:
Just get Qrech to make them for us, and then we can play out the scenarios with him, ez.

...have we seen Qrech since adopting Eike as our apprentice and initiating her into our secret? I hope he's enjoying his middle age. Hopefully soon he earns his doctorate.

(At least University of Altdorf dissertation committees are probably less, uh, strenuous than ones in the Under-Empire.)
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@Boney

Silly-clever social turn idea, yes-yes!

Qrech and Mathilde and Eike play wargames! (Qrech starts playing wargames with people via post? Though I don't know how dice rolls would be arbitrated/trusted, or if post-wargames are viable in terms of 'how long the game would take to play')
 
BeepSmile said:
@Boney

Silly-clever social turn idea, yes-yes!

Qrech and Mathilde and Eike play wargames! (Qrech starts playing wargames with people via post? Though I don't know how dice rolls would be arbitrated/trusted, or if post-wargames are viable in terms of 'how long the game would take to play')
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It's a fun idea for the meta of it, but I don't know if it'd actually work. The most likely character moment to happen is 'hey, remember when you were leading troops in an empire fundamentally opposed to the free existence of my species', which I don't think is the tone you were going for.
 
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