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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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[X] Plan Redshirt v1: Infrastructure Focus
[X] Plan: Preppin for the Elfcation
[X] Plan Pondering Orbs and Nuts
[X] Plan Ithilmar, Enchantment and Exploration Vlag Edition
 
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Tobtorp said:
Where does it say that aparations aren't daemons? This is the crux of the issue and why the orders that use them don't advertise the fact.
Because you keep telling me their legal and the literal only evidence you have brought up is a spell of the colleges that a non wizard doesn't understand or can replicate.
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Let me quote myself. Then you prove how they are deamons. Not nitpick my argument but prove your position that they are deamons Because I am sick of these moving goalposts;

Tasoli said:
You know what, Let me take a crack at apparations not being deamons argument. What proof do we have?

Primary proof;
Mathilde bound one to her soul and sensed no Chaos energies.(Case study esentially) (Reminder, she has counter-Chaos training so she would know)

Secondary proof;
Three other collages bound apparations and found no Chaos corruption.
External exemination by Order of Light on Gehenas Golden Hounds found no Chaos corruption (Reminder, Lights don't bind apparations)
Hysh spells that banishes deamons don't work apparations. (Reminder, there is another spell that banishes denizens of Immaterium that works)
Elves use apparations.

Tertiary proof;
Djinn is not considered deamons.
So conclusion; Apparation ≠ Deamon.

Discussion; are apparations are Deamon like? My answer would be that is a distinction without meaning. IF we are broadening the definition that much Gods would also count Deamon like so there is no point and would tell us nothing. Does this look bad to the people on the street, yes but that is reason to keep quite not a reason to stop research about Apparations.
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Edit: Addendum There is no deamons we know of that does not have also dhar in them Apparations have no dhar ergo they are not deamons.
 
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Tobtorp said:
Fun fact, it's not the forbidden lore of chaos. It's the forbidden lore of Daemonic powers. Now when your argument is that aparations look like Daemonic entities, come from the same place as Daemonic entities and behave like Daemonic entities then that parts gets a lot more important, right?
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It's not studying their lore. Straight up, it's not the lore of the demonic powers. It is explicitly part of the lore of whatever wind is used to bind the apparition.
 
Tasoli said:
Let me quiote myself. Then you prove how they are deamons. Not nitpick my argument but prove your position that they are deamons;
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They look like daemons, they come from the same place as daemons they ignore the rules of physics like daemons?
Your evidence is that if someone binds them they can tell their not daemonic, that's not evidence you can show anyone,
Your second piece of evidence is that the wizard colleges already have bound these entities and that therefore they can't be Daemonic and that the lights say that too
Again not evidence you can somehow show someone that isn't a wizard already involved
Your third piece of evidence is that a tradition of magic very far removed from the empire binds aparations and that the colleges who also do that think their ok?
Again, not evidence anyone would accept as proof their not daemons.
rocketroland999 said:
It's not studying their lore. Straight up, it's not the lore of the demonic powers. It is explicitly part of the lore of whatever wind is used to bind the apparition.
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... If it were "just don't study their lore" then by that logic binding an actual daemon to your soul would also be ok because you can do that without studying their lore...

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Tasoli said:
Edit: Addendum There is no deamons we know of that does not have also dhar in them Apparations have no dhar ergo they are not deamons.
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This one is actually interesting and I do not recall where we learnt about daemons always having dhar in them, is there a quote for that?
 
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Tobtorp said:
They look like daemons, they come from the same place as daemons they ignore the rules of physics like daemons?
Your evidence is that if someone binds them they can tell their not daemonic, that's not evidence you can show anyone,
Your second piece of evidence is that the wizard colleges already have bound these entities and that therefore they can't be Daemonic and that the lights say that too
Again not evidence you can somehow show someone that isn't a wizard already involved
Your third piece of evidence is that a tradition of magic very far removed from the empire binds aparations and that the colleges who also do that think their ok?
Again, not evidence anyone would accept as proof their not daemons.

... If it were "just don't study their lore" then by that logic binding an actual daemon to your soul would also be ok because you can do that without studying their lore...
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Again and again bad fait arguments!

Here is something for you. Deamons are made of Dhar. Apparations are not made of Dhar. Therefore Apparations are not deamons.

Prove otherwise. I dare you.
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Tobtorp said:
This one is actually interesting and I do not recall where we learnt about daemons always having dhar in them, is there a quote for that?
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Go find yourself. Bring it back if you find something that says otherwise. I am done with you.
 
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Tasoli said:
Again and again bad fait arguments!

Here is something for you. Deamons are made of Dhar. Apparations are not made of Dhar. Therefore Apparations are not deamons.

Prove otherwise. I dare you.
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I generally agree with your point, but I am pretty sure daemons are not made of Dhar, at least not entirely. When those demons died outside of Vlag they were sublimating into the Winds and as far as we know the transformation from Dhar to Winds is strictly one way so there must be something non-Dhar in them.
 
@Boney: There appears to be some controversy over what assigning Eike to the KAU language action would involve due to differing interpretations of how Eike tagalong works. If this happens, will Eike get any language study out of it (with the understanding that obviously this isn't as efficient/effective as a dedicated language study action), or will she purely be part of the administrative side?
 
pucflek said:
Are daemons made of Dhar?

This is a serious question, entirely aside from the argument. I don´t remember this about them.
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I don't think so. Dhar is not a natural thing, even in the Aethyr.

The "Stuff of the Aethyr" enters reality, it gets split into eight winds by the polar gates.
If the winds do something they aren't meant to (Like mix, or touch the dirty stuff) they become Dhar.
And Dhar that gets sent to the Vortex turns back to "Stuff of the Aethyr".

There's of course the "try it and find out" option...
 
DragonParadox said:
I generally agree with your point, but I am pretty sure daemons are not made of Dhar, at least not entirely. When those demons died outside of Vlag they were sublimating into the Winds and as far as we know the transformation from Dhar to Winds is strictly one way so there must be something non-Dhar in them.
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Can you quite that scene because I checked the said update and it says nothing like that.

pucflek said:
Are daemons made of Dhar?

This is a serious question, entirely aside from the argument. I don´t remember this about them.
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Boney mentioned that IF we had captured a deamon in the Mirrorcatch box it would be dripping Dhar. I don't know if that is update or GM word tough.

So even if there is something not dhar in them they also have dhar in them so apparations that has no dhar in them are not deamons.
 
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Tobtorp said:
... If it were "just don't study their lore" then by that logic binding an actual daemon to your soul would also be ok because you can do that without studying their lore...
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If you could bind a thing made mostly out of dark magic to your soul without touching any dark magic in any way, I'd be impressed. Binding a daemon to your soul would be banned under the dark magic clause, also stupidity clause, and literally anyone would be completely in the right to murder you the instant you do this.

And without learning anything from the process, as studying a daemon to figure out how to do this would almost certainly fall under daemonology, which is banned.
 
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Mopman43 said:
Do you know where that is mentioned?
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Gavin Prince said:
The wiki cites the Blood of Aenarion novel. No idea what the actual quotation is there, though. Chapter fifteen, apparently.
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Scanning through Blood of Aenarion, I've got to disagree that it's cut-and-dry that Dwarves live in Lothern, rather than being visiting merchants. There are only two passages that even mention dwarves.

Humans bringing dwarven clockwork with them:
Blood of Aenarion said:
'The humans breed quickly.'
'It is not just that. More and more of them come here every year, seeking to trade. They bring us their goods. They buy our wares and the goods our ships bring in from the far corners of the world.'
'What could they sell us that we could possibly want?' Tyrion asked.
'They bring dwarf-made clockworks from the Worlds Edge Mountains. The dwarfs still refuse to trade with us directly. They bring gold and silver and gems that cannot be found here on Ulthuan. They bring ores and wool and tobacco. They bring preserved meats and grains and books of lore.' She seemed to be working her way through a long list.
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Tyrion spotting a few dwarves in the Foreign Quarter (which does disagree with the above that "the dwarfs still refuse to trade with us directly"):
Blood of Aenarion said:
From the gloom he saw smaller, bearded figures peering and he was astonished to see dwarfs. Despite their long beards and squat builds these dwarfs were garbed more like humans than the heavily armoured warriors he expected. Had the race really changed so much since the times of Caledor the Second or were these some strange new hybrid of dwarf and human? He remembered Teclis telling him once that several clans of dwarves had gone to live among the humans of the Empire. Perhaps these were such.
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Chalk it up to the Wiki being the Wiki, in all it's "let's make shit up" glory.
 
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Tasoli said:
Boney mentioned that IF we had captured a deamon in the Mirrorcatch box it would be dripping Dhar. I don't know if that is update or GM word tough.
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@pucflek
Boney said:
Mathilde has not studied the liquid enough to know for sure, but the assumptions she can make based on what she knows is thus:

Creatures of magic, like the snake was/is, are not made of regular matter. They are made of magic under the creature's control so that it forms its vessel. When such a creature is slain (dis-incorporated?), said magic would usually decay back into elemental magic. The unfortunate creature being trapped in a halfway point between 'life' and 'death' (inasmuch as the two states can be applied to demons and quasi-demonic warp entities) is why, presumably, the liquid has not decayed.

The snake is not, in the conventional sense, a demon, and it is not explicitly aligned with any of the chaos gods. Therefore the magic that it is made of is not unholy magic tainted by any (or all) of those gods. Nor is it aligned with any of the winds of magic, nor is it made up of the festered and corruptive eneriges of dhar.

This is where facts run out and speculation is required.

'High' magic, of which humans know very little, is when an extremely skilled practitioner of magic uses all eight winds of magic in unison. Normally, if someone uses multiple winds of magic, the result becomes Dhar - imagine someone trying to mix paints and it inevitably resulting in a mucky brown tone. When a sufficiently skilled wizard does it, they can combine the colours into a pure magic called Qhaysh, similarly to how we are taught 'white' light is made up of all colours combined. No known human is capable of such a feat, as it (in theory) takes centuries of careful study to achieve it.

The snake's 'blood' seems to be similar to Qhaysh, but it is not quite. When magic enters the world through the polar gates, the effect the world and/or the polar gates has on it is to separate it into the eight 'winds' of magic. This is magic that never passed the polar gates, and has never been separated.
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I found this. The bold part is the most relevant bit to the conversation
 
Gavin Prince said:
Tyrion spotting a few dwarves in the Foreign Quarter (which does disagree with the above that "the dwarfs still refuse to trade with us directly"):
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You could probably take the first as referring to the Karaz Ankor rather than every individual Dwarf. Or the Dwarfs trade with human merchants in the Foreign Quarter who then trade with the Elves. Just because you're in a city doesn't mean you have to trade with the rulers of it. It could also indicate Dwarfen crew from non-Dwarfen ships.
 
Gavin Prince said:
Tyrion spotting a few dwarves in the Foreign Quarter (which does disagree with the above that "the dwarfs still refuse to trade with us directly"):
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Given the mention of 'from the WEM', possibly the use of 'Dwarfs' there was purely referring to the Karaz Ankor itself?

Ulthuan merchants might not generally consider Imperial Dwarfs worth mentioning.
 
Tasoli said:
Here is something for you. Deamons are made of Dhar. Apparations are not made of Dhar. Therefore Apparations are not deamons.
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Boney said:
Dhar is the raw stuff of chaos that has come through the Polar Gates, been transformed into the various Winds of magic, then either stagnated or been corrupted into reverting to something more like, but still distinct from, its original form.

Demons are not made of Dhar. They would create it as ambient magic reacts to their presence, but the stuff they are made of has never surrendered to the influence of this world. How exactly your Belt would react to this is untested. And while you would not suffer from Dhar corruption if you hugged a daemon, the daemon would very quickly find all sorts of other ways to make you regret that decision.
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Also, I really have no idea what you guys are arguing about at this point and I don't see what it has to do with the vote.
 
rocketroland999 said:
If you could bind a thing made mostly out of dark magic to your soul without touching any dark magic in any way, I'd be impressed. Binding a daemon to your soul would be banned under the dark magic clause, also stupidity clause, and literally anyone would be completely in the right to murder you the instant you do this.

And without learning anything from the process, as studying a daemon to figure out how to do this would almost certainly fall under daemonology, which is banned.
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Absolutely, my point was mostly that it's not just the "lore" of the daemonic realms that is forbidden but deliberately interacting with them is too.
IronFist said:
@pucflek


I found this. The bold part is the most relevant bit to the conversation
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So dhar is it's own thing but the magic they bleed would be tainted with chaos if their aligned with any of the four.
This is probably the best evidence, still a bit hard to "prove" this to anyone not a wizard but this should actually be verifiable by the cults if they have some form of windsense.
 
Incidently
Boney said:
Fact: The Wisdom's Asp is a warp entity; by some definitions this would make it daemonic, but it is not one in the sense that it is not aligned with any of the Daemonic Powers.
Note: Thus this investigation does not breach Article 7, and thus is legal under Article 5.
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Tobtorp said:
Absolutely, my point was mostly that it's not just the "lore" of the daemonic realms that is forbidden but deliberately interacting with them is too.

So dhar is it's own thing but the magic they bleed would be tainted with chaos if their aligned with any of the four.
This is probably the best evidence, still a bit hard to "prove" this to anyone not a wizard but this should actually be verifiable by the cults if they have some form of windsense.
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Picklepikkl found an explicit boney quote to the contrary.

My SV-search fu remains forever inferior.

Iä Iä Picklepikkl!
 
picklepikkl said:
Also, I really have no idea what you guys are arguing about at this point and I don't see what it has to do with the vote.
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Oh fuck;
Demons are not made of Dhar. They would create it as ambient magic reacts to their presence,

I am remembering this. Still Apparations don't create dhar from ambient magic either so only half wrong.
 
I mean I figure the distinction between a deamon and an apparition is that a deamon can't be remolded with a singular wind the way we did to the red rider. Also the inherent corruptiveness of chaos would likely cause us to mutate like hell if we bound one to our soul.
And not in the "ulgu/arcane mark" sense, in the "I have mouths growing out of my shoulders" sense.
 
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