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Starfleet Design Bureau

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I really don't understand why people are dooming over a two-year mission with no resupply. That's longer than Kirk's Enterprise ever went without going back to port!
 
[X] 1: Engineering Workshop (+2 Engineering, Capability: Fabrication)
[X] 2: Secondary Computer Core (+1 Science, Capability: Advanced Computers, +1 Cost)
[X] 3: Cargo Bay (+2 Engineering, Capability: +6 Cargo)
[X] 4: Astrometrics (+2 Science, Capability: Astrometrics)
[X] 5: Biosciences (+2 Science, Capability: Advanced Medical)
[X] 6: Geology Lab (+2 Science, Capability: Geology)
 
I do hope that our gambles pay off, because it does look like the Copernicus is going to be an absolute behemoth of a vessel, both in peacetime and in war.

Expensive? Yes.

Worth every credit? Absolutely.

I almost wonder if it's going to end up being our proto-Excelsior just like how the Cygnus was a proto-Miranda?
 
Alectai said:
I do hope that our gambles pay off, because it does look like the Copernicus is going to be an absolute behemoth of a vessel, both in peacetime and in war.

Expensive? Yes.

Worth every credit? Absolutely.

I almost wonder if it's going to end up being our proto-Excelsior just like how the Cygnus was a proto-Miranda?
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Probably not, and if we could build such? We'd instead gamble on more Experimental or prototype tech because this thread has a crippling complexity addiction.
 
[x] 1: Engineering Workshop (+2 Engineering, Capability: Fabrication)
[x] 2: Extra Antimatter Pods (+250ly Range, +2 Cost)
[x] 3: Science Labs (+4 Science)
[x] 4: Extra Crew Quarters (Shared Quarters -> Personal Quarters)
[x] 5: Biosciences (+2 Science, Capability: Advanced Medical)
[x] 6: Cargo Bay (+1 Engineering, Capability: +2 Cargo)
 
Alectai said:
Be nice, we managed to keep it under control quite nicely for Cygnus and Curiosity.

Explorers are the time to stretch your limits though.
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True, but if the Gm doesn't hard lock us on requirements and regulations, we oft tend to Slam absolutely everything we can onto a design even if it's a really bad idea. Even if we had a design hard locked to be high B to outright S across the board, the thread would more than likely gamble for even more. The Gambler's fallacy runs this thread hard.
 
CuriousRaptor said:
True, but if the Gm doesn't hard lock us on requirements and regulations, we oft tend to Slam absolutely everything we can onto a design even if it's a really bad idea. Even if we had a design hard locked to be high B to outright S across the board, the thread would more than likely gamble for even more. The Gambler's fallacy runs this thread hard.
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To be fair, I'm pretty sure that is 100% in character for Starfleet. Or at least the human part of it.
 
CuriousRaptor said:
True, but if the Gm doesn't hard lock us on requirements and regulations, we oft tend to Slam absolutely everything we can onto a design even if it's a really bad idea. Even if we had a design hard locked to be high B to outright S across the board, the thread would more than likely gamble for even more. The Gambler's fallacy runs this thread hard.
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I think it's fun to make an economical ship that has to fit a bunch of requirements. I also think it's fun to be given a blank check and make something as big and expensive as we can manage. And whatever else in between. Variety in design requirements and expectations is a big part of this quest's fun.
 
CuriousRaptor said:
Probably not, and if we could build such? We'd instead gamble on more Experimental or prototype tech because this thread has a crippling complexity addiction.
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I mean, if Memory Alpha is to be believed the first Excelsior spent her first two years in dock, her experimental warp drive didn't offer any significant improvements over existing designs, and when she tried to panic launch in response to what was believed to be an attack she lost all power and couldn't actually do anything, and yet that didn't stop the Excelsiors from becoming Starfleet's mainstay ship for decades to come (also the warp drive failed during its first test but that was literally sabotage so that doesn't really count). Clearly Starfleet has quite a bit of tolerance for teething issues with new technology if this example is anything to go by, so while I'm not incredibly optimistic on the Copernicus becoming a proto-Excelsior I won't rule the possibility out either.

edit: also for that matter the Century managed a production run of 42 ships over ~4 decades (slightly over half the numbers of the Excelsior in slightly less time, and each Century masses approximately as much as two Excelsiors so the total tonnage is more or less the same) despite being monstrously complex and expensive, so like...if the capabilities offered are good enough, then precedent indicates Starfleet will figure out a way to fit more ships into the budget lol.
 
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I fully expect after the Copernicus for the Bureau to be asked to design something with strict cost and complexity limits, something like a next generation Zheng He replacement.
 
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Schlock said:
The Explorers are there to expand the Frontiers of the Federation, to introduce themselves to the locals and potentially find new worlds to colonise.

The Science ships are the ones that follow on behind the Explorers as they venture into the unknown and have a closer look at what the Explorers have found. I would expect the second wave of Surveyor ships to outnumber the Explorer type vessels by a wide margin, as they fill in the detail of the broad brush maps that the Explorers have charted.

The Explorers need that extra range to get out ahead of the shorter ranged Science type ships, simply to identify the problem areas of space for the second wave ships to avoid and the Explorers need to spend more time on.
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Copernicus already has an assload more range than our current gen science ship.

So your request is already fulfilled in spades. More range is pretty strictly a luxury, and one that has a very high opportunity cost.

KlavoHunter said:
Please don't settle for the short-range version...
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The generalist version isn't short range; it's very definitively long range, as helpfully demonstrated by my previously provided data points and the qm's helpful clarification (seriously, the Copernicus has about 78% the range of a ship roughly 150 years in the future).

You and your fellows are trying to persuade us to build the Extreme-XL range version.

CuriousRaptor said:
Probably not, and if we could build such? We'd instead gamble on more Experimental or prototype tech because this thread has a crippling complexity addiction.
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No we don't - the qm is bribing subsidizing us to take the experimental options by telling us we'll never get the really funky shit if we don't innovate.

You get what you pay for, and the qm is paying for pushing boundaries.
 
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I think for a long range exploration vessel I would want:

1) Cruiser configuration. Range = Time x Speed
2) Smaller Size. A smaller ship makes personal crew quarters more practical.
3) Less Weapons (Torpedoes especially). Hard to justify expendable weapons when on a long mission resupply is going to be tough or even nonexistent. The space for those torpedoes could probably have been more cargo.

And of course, Long Range Scanners and Astrometrics would be a real help.
 
Shard said:
I think for a long range exploration vessel I would want:

1) Cruiser configuration. Range = Time x Speed
2) Smaller Size. A smaller ship makes personal crew quarters more practical.
3) Less Weapons (Torpedoes especially). Hard to justify expendable weapons when on a long mission resupply is going to be tough or even nonexistent. The space for those torpedoes could probably have been more cargo.

And of course, Long Range Scanners and Astrometrics would be a real help.
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It'd be nice to have a dedicated 'astronomer/cartographer' with the deflector analysis lab we skipped over on the Curiosity.
 
CrabMonarchy said:
I mean, if Memory Alpha is to be believed the first Excelsior spent her first two years in dock, her experimental warp drive didn't offer any significant improvements over existing designs, and when she tried to panic launch in response to what was believed to be an attack she lost all power and couldn't actually do anything, and yet that didn't stop the Excelsiors from becoming Starfleet's mainstay ship for decades to come (also the warp drive failed during its first test but that was literally sabotage so that doesn't really count). Clearly Starfleet has quite a bit of tolerance for teething issues with new technology, if this example is anything to go by, so while I'm not incredibly optimistic on the Copernicus becoming a proto-Excelsior I won't rule the possibility out either.

edit: also for that matter the Century managed a production run of 42 ships over ~4 decades (slightly over half the numbers of the Excelsior in slightly less time, and each Century masses approximately as much as two Excelsiors so the total tonnage is more or less the same) despite being monstrously complex and expensive, so like...if the capabilities offered are good enough, then precedent indicates Starfleet will figure out a way to fit more ships into the budget lol.
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One interesting thing about the Sovereign is that it certainly appears to be the only ship from the Anti-Borg designs that is still in use by the 2410s. You have the Odyssey-class, Akira II, Excelsior II, essentially a whole new overhaul of the Luna-class into the Neo Constitution, but the Sovereign is still kicking just as she was in 2380. We also see them in Lower Decks, Prodigy, and Picard. Certainly indicates to me that despite them being in the upper echelon of mass and expense that their sheer performance kept them as perhaps Starfleet's favourite heavy cruiser into the 25th century.

I just realised this, but the Copernicus' saucer section is almost exactly the same size as that of the Constitution-class. Which is really quite a small ship compared to those in later years.
 
Sayle said:
One interesting thing about the Sovereign is that it certainly appears to be the only ship from the Anti-Borg designs that is still in use by the 2410s. You have the Odyssey-class, Akira II, Excelsior II, essentially a whole new overhaul of the Luna-class into the Neo Constitution, but the Sovereign is still kicking just as she was in 2380. We also see them in Lower Decks, Prodigy, and Picard. Certainly indicates to me that despite them being in the upper echelon of mass and expense that their sheer performance kept them as perhaps Starfleet's favourite heavy cruiser into the 25th century.

I just realised this, but the Copernicus' saucer section is almost exactly the same size as that of the Constitution-class. Which is really quite a small ship compared to those in later years.
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Actually the Akira itself seems to still be in operation in Picard, at least from my reading.
 
Sayle said:
I just realised this, but the Copernicus' saucer section is almost exactly the same size as that of the Constitution-class. Which is really quite a small ship compared to those in later years.
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The Constitution is somewhat undersized for its crew compliment, post-Cage at least. As much as I dislike its overall design iirc the given length for the DIS/SNW Connie is rather close to what it probably should be.

MS-21H 'Hawke' said:
Actually the Akira itself seems to still be in operation in Picard, at least from my reading.
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As is the Defiant. We see them grouped up in packs at the Frontier Day fleet in Picard S3.
 
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Sayle said:
One interesting thing about the Sovereign is that it certainly appears to be the only ship from the Anti-Borg designs that is still in use by the 2410s. You have the Odyssey-class, Akira II, Excelsior II, essentially a whole new overhaul of the Luna-class into the Neo Constitution, but the Sovereign is still kicking just as she was in 2380. We also see them in Lower Decks, Prodigy, and Picard. Certainly indicates to me that despite them being in the upper echelon of mass and expense that their sheer performance kept them as perhaps Starfleet's favourite heavy cruiser into the 25th century.

I just realised this, but the Copernicus' saucer section is almost exactly the same size as that of the Constitution-class. Which is really quite a small ship compared to those in later years.
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I think one of the things that would keep the Sovereign going is that it's actually not in the upper echelon of mass. It's about half the size of the Galaxy, for example - about the size of the stardrive section, actually, which makes sense give that's the fighty bit of the Galaxy. It's very well sized for larger production runs than the real top-of-the-line mega explorers like the Galaxy or Odyssey. It could well end up being like the Excelsior where Starfleet just hit a great combo where there's a good military-science balance and it's easy to refit to keep going.
 
I went to see the Memory-Alpha page and those editors are dedicated. The "Spacecraft references" section of S3 Picard's final episode has a list of all the ship classes seen. And they also borrow a lot of ship classes from Star Trek Online too, though usually they're just hull variants of the canon classes.

Looks like the Intrepid, Galaxy, and Nebula classes for pre-Borg last until Picard too.
 
I feel like Picard is probably not the best way to look at canon from DS9-onwards. Especially with the whole "the entirety of a scientific, exploration, policing, military, peacekeeping, and survey fleet that spans a huge chunk of the galaxy all gets together in one place for a single day despite the impossibility on every level of something like that, let alone the utter absence of intelligence put into such an idea" thing.

...and then having a galaxy-wide "element blows up" event because some kid had some trauma thing wrecking the entire Federation and having humanity leave the organization it founded...yeah, Star Trek canon kind of went downhill after DS9.
 
[X] 1: Engineering Workshop (+2 Engineering, Capability: Fabrication)
[X] 2: Secondary Computer Core (+1 Science, Capability: Advanced Computers, +1 Cost)
[X] 3: Science Labs (+4 Science)
[X] 4: Astrometrics (+2 Science, Capability: Astrometrics)
[X] 5: Biosciences (+2 Science, Capability: Advanced Medical)
[X] 6: Cargo Bay (+1 Engineering, Capability: +2 Cargo)
 
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