Starfleet Design Bureau

I also think that the engineering workshop has become a requirement, given how useful it's been so far and the continuing range increases the ships are going to have.

TheShadowDeamon said:

I also think that the engineering workshop has become a requirement, given how useful it's been so far and the continuing range increases the ships are going to have.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Until the replicator (and even then, there's a lot it can't do) it'll be a necessity on basically every ship we put out that isn't a cargo hauler or hospital ship.

Space: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Copernicus. Its mission: to explore strange new worlds; to seek out new life and new civilizations; to boldly go where no one has gone before!

That is pretty much the mission statement for a Federation Explorer. Not a short range science ship, it is a ship that goes out into the Deep Dark beyond the Federations borders to see what is there. They don't have any backup, so everything they need to stay alive, the ship will have to fill out of its own onboard resources.

So this is what I think is the best fit for an Explorer and why I chose it....

[x] 1: Engineering Workshop (+2 Engineering, Capability: Fabrication)
[x] 2: Extra Antimatter Pods (+250ly Range, +2 Cost)
[x] 3: Science Labs (+4 Science)
[x] 4: Extra Crew Quarters (Shared Quarters -> Personal Quarters)
[x] 5: Biosciences (+2 Science, Capability: Advanced Medical)
[x] 6: Cargo Bay (+1 Engineering, Capability: +2 Cargo)

Rationale:
1. Engineering. If something breaks out there, you can't go to the nearest Starbase to fix it.
2. Extra Antimatter. You need the range to go out beyond the borders of known space.
3. Science Labs. Because when you get there, you need to do Science!
4 Extra Crew Quarters. The Explorer crew are going to be in each others faces for a long time. A bit of privacy off shift is going to do wonders for crew morale. It is also encouraged to pair this with the extended range option.
5. Biosciences. The explorers at their core are looking for new worlds to colonise so they need this as part of their science fit out. It also gives the crew a better chance of survival if they run into anything nasty.
6. Cargo. Spare parts, extra luxuries, whatever. For an extended range explorer, this is just as important as the extra anti-matter.


What it gets us:

Engineering: 5
2 - Shuttles
2 - Workshop
1 - Cargo
Science: 8
2 - Base Capability
4 - Science Labs
2 - Bio Sciences
Range: 500ly (Four Years)

[X] 1: Engineering Workshop (+2 Engineering, Capability: Fabrication)
[X] 2: Secondary Computer Core (+1 Science, Capability: Advanced Computers, +1 Cost)
[X] 3: Cargo Bay (+2 Engineering, Capability: +6 Cargo)
[X] 4: Astrometrics (+2 Science, Capability: Astrometrics)
[X] 5: Biosciences (+2 Science, Capability: Advanced Medical)
[X] 6: Geology Lab (+2 Science, Capability: Geology)

[X] 1: Engineering Workshop (+2 Engineering, Capability: Fabrication)
[X] 2: Secondary Computer Core (+1 Science, Capability: Advanced Computers, +1 Cost)
[X] 3: Cargo Bay (+2 Engineering, Capability: +6 Cargo)
[X] 4: Astrometrics (+2 Science, Capability: Astrometrics)
[X] 5: Biosciences (+2 Science, Capability: Advanced Medical)
[X] 6: Geology Lab (+2 Science, Capability: Geology)

[X] 1: Engineering Workshop (+2 Engineering, Capability: Fabrication)
[X] 2: Extra Antimatter Pods (+250ly Range, +2 Cost)
[X] 3: Cargo Bay (+2 Engineering, Capability: +6 Cargo)
[X] 4: Astrometrics (+2 Science, Capability: Astrometrics)
[X] 5: Biosciences (+2 Science, Capability: Advanced Medical)
[X] 6: Geology Lab (+2 Science, Capability: Geology)

Schlock said:

Space: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Copernicus. Its mission: to explore strange new worlds; to seek out new life and new civilizations; to boldly go where no one has gone before!

That is pretty much the mission statement for a Federation Explorer. Not a short range science ship, it is a ship that goes out into the Deep Dark beyond the Federations borders to see what is there. They don't have any backup, so everything they need to stay alive, the ship will have to fill out of its own onboard resources.

So this is what I think is the best fit for an Explorer and why I chose it....

[x] 1: Engineering Workshop (+2 Engineering, Capability: Fabrication)
[x] 2: Extra Antimatter Pods (+250ly Range, +2 Cost)
[x] 3: Science Labs (+4 Science)
[x] 4: Extra Crew Quarters (Shared Quarters -> Personal Quarters)
[x] 5: Biosciences (+2 Science, Capability: Advanced Medical)
[x] 6: Cargo Bay (+1 Engineering, Capability: +2 Cargo)

Rationale:
1. Engineering. If something breaks out there, you can't go to the nearest Starbase to fix it.
2. Extra Antimatter. You need the range to go out beyond the borders of known space.
3. Science Labs. Because when you get there, you need to do Science!
4 Extra Crew Quarters. The Explorer crew are going to be in each others faces for a long time. A bit of privacy off shift is going to do wonders for crew morale. It is also encouraged to pair this with the extended range option.
5. Biosciences. The explorers at their core are looking for new worlds to colonise so they need this as part of their science fit out. It also gives the crew a better chance of survival if they run into anything nasty.
6. Cargo. Spare parts, extra luxuries, whatever. For an extended range explorer, this is just as important as the extra anti-matter.


What it gets us:

Engineering: 5
2 - Shuttles
2 - Workshop
1 - Cargo
Science: 8
2 - Base Capability
4 - Science Labs
2 - Bio Sciences
Range: 500ly (Four Years)

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

People have argued it's the mission statement for our next explorer, and they might be right, even if I'm still one of the few voices agreeing with you.

Honestly, my problem with trying to push for range now is threefold.

One - if something goes badly wrong at the extreme end of the Copernicus' range, a two year range means that it's plausible to get something like a Cygnus or two out to provide rescue operations. A four year range, however, means that we either need to do Operation Black Buck, rescue work edition, ie., using multiple refueling tankers to extend the range of a Cygnus or Cygnus flotilla, or we need to send another Copernicus-class to do it. The former involves a larger number of small ships, as well as substantial logistical overhead, while the latter pulls a Copernicus class away from exploratory duties - exploratory duties that might see every other ship of the class be months or even years away, even with their cruise speed.

Two - the long range configurations have to either sacrifice astrometrics to achieve sufficient crew comfort to make practical use of that range, and thus have a much greater chance of missing important destinations to visit, or sacrifice the ability to keep crew morale up even at several years distance from any shore leave or off-ship recreational facilities so that astrometrics can be retained. Neither of these options are particularly good, especially for a ship meant to theoretically go long distances into the black unsupported (and who thus wouldn't be able to have crew support or relief ships showing up to relieve crew stress, or who wouldn't be able to rely on sensor support from dedicated Astrometrics equipped science vessels like the Curiosity-class).

Three - it's expressly called out as yet another increase to cost for an already massively expensive ship, while adding a capability that would be hard to make use of without sacrificing performance in other categories anyways. We're already being rated at a D on cost, I don't want to push that rating any lower.

Also the Extra core helps get us a lot more synergies with our design.

CuriousRaptor said:

Also the Extra core helps get us a lot more synergies with our design.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

This too - I recall it being noted in the NX-class development that the secondary computer core fitted to that class of explorer made it much more effective at actually doing scientific exploration.

[X] 1: Engineering Workshop (+2 Engineering, Capability: Fabrication)
[X] 2: Extra Antimatter Pods (+250ly Range, +2 Cost)
[X] 3: Cargo Bay (+2 Engineering, Capability: +6 Cargo)
[X] 4: Extra Crew Quarters (Shared Quarters -> Personal Quarters)
[X] 5: Biosciences (+2 Science, Capability: Advanced Medical)
[X] 6: Geology Lab (+2 Science, Capability: Geology)

[X] 1: Engineering Workshop (+2 Engineering, Capability: Fabrication)
[X] 2: Secondary Computer Core (+1 Science, Capability: Advanced Computers, +1 Cost)
[X] 3: Cargo Bay (+2 Engineering, Capability: +6 Cargo)
[X] 4: Astrometrics (+2 Science, Capability: Astrometrics)
[X] 5: Biosciences (+2 Science, Capability: Advanced Medical)
[X] 6: Geology Lab (+2 Science, Capability: Geology)

The range would be nice, but I don't think it's worth giving up astrometrics for.

Also, the explorers will an important part of our defense forces, and we're not going to be making a whole lot of them. So having them a little closer to home isn't the worst thing.

[X] 1: Engineering Workshop (+2 Engineering, Capability: Fabrication)
[X] 2: Secondary Computer Core (+1 Science, Capability: Advanced Computers, +1 Cost)
[X] 3: Cargo Bay (+2 Engineering, Capability: +6 Cargo)
[X] 4: Astrometrics (+2 Science, Capability: Astrometrics)
[X] 5: Biosciences (+2 Science, Capability: Advanced Medical)
[X] 6: Geology Lab (+2 Science, Capability: Geology)

I wasn't originally thinking this set up, but maximum capability spread for the science types would be an interesting set up. So I'll vote for it.

[X] 1: Engineering Workshop (+2 Engineering, Capability: Fabrication)
[X] 2: Secondary Computer Core (+1 Science, Capability: Advanced Computers, +1 Cost)
[X] 3: Cargo Bay (+2 Engineering, Capability: +6 Cargo)
[X] 4: Astrometrics (+2 Science, Capability: Astrometrics)
[X] 5: Biosciences (+2 Science, Capability: Advanced Medical)
[X] 6: Geology Lab (+2 Science, Capability: Geology)

[X] 1: Engineering Workshop (+2 Engineering, Capability: Fabrication)
[X] 2: Secondary Computer Core (+1 Science, Capability: Advanced Computers, +1 Cost)
[X] 3: Cargo Bay (+2 Engineering, Capability: +6 Cargo)
[X] 4: Astrometrics (+2 Science, Capability: Astrometrics)
[X] 5: Biosciences (+2 Science, Capability: Advanced Medical)
[X] 6: Geology Lab (+2 Science, Capability: Geology)

[X] 1: Engineering Workshop (+2 Engineering, Capability: Fabrication)
[X] 2: Secondary Computer Core (+1 Science, Capability: Advanced Computers, +1 Cost)
[X] 3: Cargo Bay (+2 Engineering, Capability: +6 Cargo)
[X] 4: Astrometrics (+2 Science, Capability: Astrometrics)
[X] 5: Biosciences (+2 Science, Capability: Advanced Medical)
[X] 6: Geology Lab (+2 Science, Capability: Geology)

There is long range or just good at everything. I am for generalist.

[X] 1: Engineering Workshop (+2 Engineering, Capability: Fabrication)
[X] 2: Secondary Computer Core (+1 Science, Capability: Advanced Computers, +1 Cost)
[X] 3: Cargo Bay (+2 Engineering, Capability: +6 Cargo)
[X] 4: Astrometrics (+2 Science, Capability: Astrometrics)
[X] 5: Biosciences (+2 Science, Capability: Advanced Medical)
[X] 6: Geology Lab (+2 Science, Capability: Geology)

We really need to wait until we can produce Constitution class sized ships in quantity if we want to start doing the 4 year missions. At the moment our ships are still too small for the extra fuel tanks, larger crew quarters, LARGE cargobays. PLUS all the science stuff which is the primary reason for going so far out. While we can design ships with the first 3, there's no point doing it if we can't do any SCIENCE!! when we get out there.

Schlock said:

That is pretty much the mission statement for a Federation Explorer. Not a short range science ship -

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Nyvis said:

People have argued it's the mission statement for our next explorer, and they might be right, even if I'm still one of the few voices agreeing with you.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I think some of the folks arguing for a 500 light year range have an...inaccurate sight picture on what constitutes "long range" vs "short range" and how those relate to our current technological capabilities.

Here's a relevant quote from the Khufu project certification that may help illustrate why so many folks don't see a 250ly boost as a loss:

The Khufu has a short operational range at an efficient cruise of Warp 5.2 and maximum cruise of Warp 6. This translates to an operational range of sixty light years from the nearest refuelling station. The Khufu is capable of a maximum velocity of Warp 6.8 for twelve hours.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

(Bolding and underlining for emphasis is mine)

So even if the final warp speed is exactly the same as the Khufu, the Copernicus will have double the operational range from the nearest fueling station, with an additional margin of error. We could honestly go for a substantially lower warp speed than the Khufu and still have enough range to make this an acceptably long-range Exploration ship, though doing so would arguably make this behemoth not worth the cost.

I'm going to stack on another data point from the previous quest, a couple centuries from the future;

The Centaur has a medium operational range at a cruise of Warp 7. As such the Centaur is certified to operate six months from the nearest refuelling depot at standard cruise. Crew lodgings are noted to be comfortable and recreational spaces allocated.
[Acceptable]

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

For those who weren't around for it, the Centaur was an Exploration cruiser. At Cruise Warp 7, six months away from refueling at standard cruise is considered acceptable. Don't know exactly what that is in light years, but a 6-month tour away from dock is much less than the 2-year-mission stat I keep seeing proposed.

Longer than a living human life-span's time into the future (IIR my trek biology correctly), a six-month tour is considered fine for exploration.

Also, here's a fun idea to consider; say the Copernicus (in the generalist build) is running low on fuel. With a giant-ass cargo bay, a full-fab engineering station, all the science bits needed to find (and survive finding) the good stuff, and some convenient asteroids or some such, the crew could potentially build a fuel-moonshine-still in the cargo bay.

[X] 1: Engineering Workshop (+2 Engineering, Capability: Fabrication)
[X] 2: Secondary Computer Core (+1 Science, Capability: Advanced Computers, +1 Cost)
[X] 3: Cargo Bay (+2 Engineering, Capability: +6 Cargo)
[X] 4: Astrometrics (+2 Science, Capability: Astrometrics)
[X] 5: Biosciences (+2 Science, Capability: Advanced Medical)
[X] 6: Geology Lab (+2 Science, Capability: Geology)

Kinda redundant voting given the count, but hey - putting my vote where my mouth is.

The Explorers are there to expand the Frontiers of the Federation, to introduce themselves to the locals and potentially find new worlds to colonise.

The Science ships are the ones that follow on behind the Explorers as they venture into the unknown and have a closer look at what the Explorers have found. I would expect the second wave of Surveyor ships to outnumber the Explorer type vessels by a wide margin, as they fill in the detail of the broad brush maps that the Explorers have charted.

The Explorers need that extra range to get out ahead of the shorter ranged Science type ships, simply to identify the problem areas of space for the second wave ships to avoid and the Explorers need to spend more time on.

[x] 1: Engineering Workshop (+2 Engineering, Capability: Fabrication)
[x] 2: Extra Antimatter Pods (+250ly Range, +2 Cost)
[x] 3: Science Labs (+4 Science)
[x] 4: Extra Crew Quarters (Shared Quarters -> Personal Quarters)
[x] 5: Biosciences (+2 Science, Capability: Advanced Medical)
[x] 6: Cargo Bay (+1 Engineering, Capability: +2 Cargo)


We've splurged on the quad nacelles for warp speed performance - now let's give the Copernicus thicc antimatter pods and personal crew quarters so they can go visit the final frontier and not catch space madness on the way.

Please don't settle for the short-range version...

[X] 1: Engineering Workshop (+2 Engineering, Capability: Fabrication)
[X] 2: Secondary Computer Core (+1 Science, Capability: Advanced Computers, +1 Cost)
[X] 3: Cargo Bay (+2 Engineering, Capability: +6 Cargo)
[X] 4: Astrometrics (+2 Science, Capability: Astrometrics)
[X] 5: Biosciences (+2 Science, Capability: Advanced Medical)
[X] 6: Geology Lab (+2 Science, Capability: Geology)

[X] 1: Engineering Workshop (+2 Engineering, Capability: Fabrication)
[X] 2: Secondary Computer Core (+1 Science, Capability: Advanced Computers, +1 Cost)
[X] 3: Cargo Bay (+2 Engineering, Capability: +6 Cargo)
[X] 4: Astrometrics (+2 Science, Capability: Astrometrics)
[X] 5: Biosciences (+2 Science, Capability: Advanced Medical)
[X] 6: Geology Lab (+2 Science, Capability: Geology)

Sounds good to me

It's basically an expensive prestige ship. Equipped to make discoveries, study new life, chart new systems and , most importantly, look really impressive to the rest of the galactic neighborhood while doing it.

CanYouMeme said:

For those who weren't around for it, the Centaur was an Exploration cruiser. At Cruise Warp 7, six months away from refueling at standard cruise is considered acceptable. Don't know exactly what that is in light years, but a 6-month tour away from dock is much less than the 2-year-mission stat I keep seeing proposed.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Something like warp 8.7 in TOS terms, so a range of around 320ly from resupply.

[X] 1: Engineering Workshop (+2 Engineering, Capability: Fabrication)
[X] 2: Secondary Computer Core (+1 Science, Capability: Advanced Computers, +1 Cost)
[X] 3: Cargo Bay (+2 Engineering, Capability: +6 Cargo)
[X] 4: Astrometrics (+2 Science, Capability: Astrometrics)
[X] 5: Biosciences (+2 Science, Capability: Advanced Medical)
[X] 6: Geology Lab (+2 Science, Capability: Geology)