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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Andres said:
We should do what we need to do to spread is as widely as possible. If attaching a price tag limits our ability to spread it even a little, we should not. If they want to pay us even though they don't have to like the Asur are, sure, great for us, but it shouldn't be conditional.
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Not attaching a price tag limits it more. Others, including boney, have pointed out why.
 
[X] [BLOOD] Personal (book agreements with all possible kislev libraries)

[X] [BLOOD] Kislevite military aid in reclaiming the fallen Nexuses of the Forest of Shadows

[X] [ULTHUAN] Cooperation
Ask for Ulthuan to supply information to further the Waystone Project, most notably the method of connecting new Waystones to the existing network.
[X] [ULTHUAN] Marienburg
While this matter alone is not enough to pry Marienburg and Ulthuan entirely apart, concessions could be extracted that would be advantageous for all of the polities involved in the Waystone Project, such as the free flow of trade from the Reik to the Sea of Claws, and an explicit stance from Ulthuan regarding the canal matter instead of their current deliberate ambiguity.


Approval voting, because I begin to feel the canal obsession has gone too far. Even if I may possibly have been the one who started it.(search canal, I am the first one to bring canals up in discussion, though it's been edited into earlier informational posts since.)
And even if the lead is so overwhelming it's almost certain to win.
 
picklepikkl said:
I mean, I just want to have a strong enough bargaining position that we can get, in exchange for our secrets, either serious magical assistance (for cracking the secrets of Nexuses) or serious martial assistance (for reclaiming the ones we've lost control of). I don't think that's an unreasonable position to take: it's basically the same attitude I have toward Ulthuan, and their surprising willingness to play ball on this point has swung the thread's attitude on them tremendously.

(I wonder if there was a background roll for how Finubar's court reacted to Teclis's letters. I wonder if it made Boney sigh and curse Ranald.)
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It really cannot be overstated how high-value Ulthuan's cooperation in the Waystone Project is, especially when given in good faith by figures like Eltharion and (implicitly) Teclis. Not only will it help us a lot by giving us the answers to major problems we can scarcely begin trying to figure out how to deal with, it will allow us to coordinate efforts to restoring and expanding the Waystone Network far more efficiently and quickly than would otherwise be possible.

Success builds momentum, and if the Waystone Project really gets off the ground so quickly and is coupled with the necessary answers/help to readily connect new Waystones into the network, the ability of the project to begin achieving the "we might even be able to do X" goals in less than a decade is going to turn a lot of heads, including in Ulthuan itself.

Teclis will be able to enjoy some wholesome satisfaction that the audacious venture he came up with for human wizards and the Imperial Colleges of Magic has already paid off big time.

[X] [BLOOD] Empire (Canal linking the Urskoy and Lynsk)
[X] [ULTHUAN] Cooperation

Canals for the Canal God.
 
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Andres said:
We should do what we need to do to spread is as widely as possible. If attaching a price tag limits our ability to spread it even a little, we should not. If they want to pay us even though they don't have to like the Asur are, sure, great for us, but it shouldn't be conditional.
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As others note, not having a price tag makes for issues. Which is why this sentiment should result in, instead of no price, the price we charge being that they help us to spread the Waystone Network further in a meaningful way. Forcing them to help with the network is a pretty reasonable thing to charge, and makes the whole situation work out better, I'm pretty sure.
 
I'm not sure if attaching a price tag beyond the general labor cost would help spread the waystones, but I can't imagine that the participants would be happy with the idea of Bretonnia getting waystones before they did. There's only so many waystones that can be made and erected at one time.

If Bretonnia pays a price it would probably be easier to get everyone willing to stabilize critical regions in Bretonnia, before we start planting waystones in places where the Network is gone or it just needs a touch here and there.

I mostly want Bretonnia because I want to read Boney write about at least a Damsel and preferably the Fay Enchantress. I also want to make Grail Chapel tributaries.

I also think it will be difficult to get the other members on board with erecting waystones in Bretonnia for "free" right after Ulthuan showed up and offered ludicrous amounts of goodies in exchange for what the Waystone Project developed. That sort of thing would inflate the ego of a lot of people.

Baba Niedzwenka will be insufferable.
 
I feel as if getting Bretonnia on board is a cursed action, because every time we get close to doing so there's a development that pushes them way down the priority list. I'm reasonably sure we'd have recruited them from the start if there weren't signs that our existing recruits were getting antsy. Then, there was a lot of talk about recruiting them before the success of the project exploded. Now, we get offered a huge deal and they get relegated further again. All of which makes me sad, because while some dislike the double talk, I really love it and how Boney has framed the culture, so I feel sad that the Damsels and Bretonnia will probably never be as involved as I'd like, and we might never get to know the place properly.

I don't though get why anyone in the thread is sore about Bretonnia not joining. Why should they be literally the only ones who join up without being actually asked to? It feels to me as if some feel they were approached and said no, which has never actually happened. I can understand the attitude from Mathilde (though even then I think it's a little unfair, but that's probably due to my own biases), but not from posters.
 
LancyIain said:
I don't though get why anyone in the thread is sore about Bretonnia not joining. Why should they be literally the only ones who join up without being actually asked to? It feels to me as if some feel they were approached and said no, which has never actually happened. I can understand the attitude from Mathilde (though even then I think it's a little unfair, but that's probably due to my own biases), but not from posters.
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I like Bretonnia, the problem for me was after they didn't make the cut in the initial round up of recruitment we were successful enough there was no reason to expend the energy on them. I'm pretty sure my position on them is a much more common reason among posters for why they were never recruited then any particular bitterness.

As for why they didn't get picked up in the initial scramble, I honestly can't remember truth be told. I would guess the biggest reason had really nothing to do with them specifically and more that there was so much competition regarding trying to squeeze people in.
 
Boney said:
"Some form of aqueduct for magic," Thorek suggests. "Needn't even be that large. Rope or wire, perhaps."

"I suspect unattended rope or wire would have a habit of disappearing entirely overnight," you reply.

Thorek frowns. "In areas where Grobi and the like lurk, aye, but what of more civilized areas?"

"When rope is a denga a yard?" Zlata says. "It might be safer with the Grobi."

"Would manlings really dismantle the Waystone network for free string?" Thorek asks, disbelieving.

"Yes," is the instant response from everyone else.
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This could work for Ulthuan.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
I like Bretonnia, the problem for me was after they didn't make the cut in the initial round up of recruitment we were successful enough there was no reason to expend the energy on them. I'm pretty sure my position on them is a much more common reason among posters for why they were never recruited then any particular bitterness.

As for why they didn't get picked up in the initial scramble, I honestly can't remember truth be told. I would guess the biggest reason had really nothing to do with them specifically and more that there was so much competition regarding trying to squeeze people in.
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I'm fairly sure that they were almost certain to be recruited next before the project got started, but there were signs of unease amongst the participants that we hadn't started so their recruitment got dropped, expected to be picked up later, and it's never happened since.

I think you are right that your position is the more common one, but I have certainly seen some people express bad feelings that Bretonnia hasn't joined, which I really don't understand when we have never actually asked them to.
 
Andres said:
This could work for Ulthuan.
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We looked into riverine/material transmission as alternatives to the original system because we couldn't get Caledor to talk to us. Ulthuan has the key-phrases that make that original leyline system work. Unless we find out those are limited to the original stones only and don't allow for expansion (which would suck), the Asur don't really need any other method of transmission.
 
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Andres said:
We should do what we need to do to spread is as widely as possible. If attaching a price tag limits our ability to spread it even a little, we should not. If they want to pay us even though they don't have to like the Asur are, sure, great for us, but it shouldn't be conditional.

I'm astounded you'd go so far as to make a claim so brazenly false as that it'd be extremely rude to the people who worked on the project. Those project members knew and accepted from the start that we'd seek to spread the benefits as widely as possible, which is why we told the Bretonnians we'd spread the benefits as widely as possible. Or am I to believe that Mathilde was lying to the Bretonnians? That all along, she knew the project members would get upset if we drained the world of as much harmful magic as possible, and then lied to look good for the purposes of diplomacy.
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Okay. You get what you give.

If Bretonnia ends up unwilling to pay for the results of the intellectual labor of several prominent researchers in the quest (I'm like 90% sure it won't happen), then Mathilde gotta prioritize like any reasonable person.

First is Kislev and the worst parts of the Empire, no matter what: Kislev is on the frontline, and the Empire has contributed the most people, including the project lead. The Karaz Ankor network is a touchy subject, so I'm certain Mathilde will approach it carefully, ensure they have the ability to expand their network (including, of course, hiring wizard labor from the Empire if the need is unavoidable; it's unlikely to be). Laurelorn is half here for the diplomacy - even their lornalim troubles were basically solved by making friends - but the other half is them expanding their piece, because at the very least the Grey Lords have a use for the energies. And also ensuring their safety, which neatly coincides with the goal to reclaim the Forest of Shadows for the local Halethans, who have also stuck their neck out to help the project and thus deserve its benefits.

(We could ask Bretonnia for help here, continuing the trend of putting boons to benevolent uses, but you're defending dealing with the kind of Bretonnia that'd demand the fruits of our work for free, so let's continue.)

Kislev and the Empire are large and full of dangers, so even shoring up the worst parts will take a while - both only have so much wizard/witchpower. It could go faster with Bretonnian military assistance, and then we'd move on to teaching them in detail how to do the things we've sunk a whole lot of time and resources into inventing, but alas. Next priority is moderately bad areas, which are still, of course, unfun and dangerous to live in. We might get sidetracked a little on where exactly the lines go, who gets access to what, and various shinies that can be powered by the newly built parts of the network. We might also get distracted by dealing with the issue of Marienburg being a bottleneck.

A lot of time will have passed, and if the next Chaos War happens in-between, maybe half again as much, before we get to the idealistic goal of dotting ALL of the Old World with Waystones and go give them to Bretonnia. Because a version of it that is truly selfish enough to refuse to pay the people who had gone out of their way to develop this would automatically fall to the last place in the priority list.

A noble end goal is an entirely separate beast from the realities of here and now, and of reciprocal relationships.

(Edit: I'm curious what people use the Winter reaction for. Is it, like, "chill out", or "damn, that's cold", or "Kislev got mentioned!" or something else?)
 
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I am once more reminding people that Bretonnia waged war on Empire twice in last two centuries. Not using the waystones as a leverage to lay groundwork for more solid diplomatic relations between Empire and them is imho a huge opportunity cost based on misplaced altruism.
 
Andres said:
Sure, as I said earlier, if a price helps us spread the benefits, I'm up for it. It's holding the world hostage for profit like an evil corpo scumbag, or claiming our partners are such people, that I object to.
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I mean has anyone here proposed any plan that does not help us spread it? So far I have seen 'help with refinement', 'aid in taking back fallen nexuses' and 'military aid against the Everchosen, famously bad for the network'.
 
Andres said:
Sure, as I said earlier, if a price helps us spread the benefits, I'm up for it. It's holding the world hostage for profit like an evil corpo scumbag, or claiming our partners are such people, that I object to.
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And like I said, I'm 90% sure Bretonnia will not refuse to pay. According to Boney, having a functional Waystone prototype would move the negotiations from "what can we give you" to "what can you give us", so I'm treating it as the default. People IC know and are fine with the fact that intellectual labor is valuable, and valuable things are typically paid for. Hell, Ulthuan is going to pay, and they're the only polity in the world that can claim they have the right to Waystone knowledge without looking ridiculous. (They actually will, and it will not get them the knowledge for free, and that is a good thing :p)

So I don't expect any hostage-holding to be necessary at all.
 
@Andres the thing that is worth keeping in mind about the Project is that our incentive structure is not that of a corporation, indeed of any kind of business. We do not gain profit from jacking up the price and we do not pay shareholders on a schedule fungible resources (i.e. money), nor are we trying to improve the price of shares so those can be redeemed or used as collateral. We are a international research institute so when we ask to be paid it is in the domain of more research, international cooperation or both, which are part of the general good.

We would have to go out of our way to be scummy about this.
 
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LancyIain said:
I feel as if getting Bretonnia on board is a cursed action, because every time we get close to doing so there's a development that pushes them way down the priority list. I'm reasonably sure we'd have recruited them from the start if there weren't signs that our existing recruits were getting antsy. Then, there was a lot of talk about recruiting them before the success of the project exploded. Now, we get offered a huge deal and they get relegated further again. All of which makes me sad, because while some dislike the double talk, I really love it and how Boney has framed the culture, so I feel sad that the Damsels and Bretonnia will probably never be as involved as I'd like, and we might never get to know the place properly.

I don't though get why anyone in the thread is sore about Bretonnia not joining. Why should they be literally the only ones who join up without being actually asked to? It feels to me as if some feel they were approached and said no, which has never actually happened. I can understand the attitude from Mathilde (though even then I think it's a little unfair, but that's probably due to my own biases), but not from posters.
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Just in the last page poster are arguing for bringing Bretonnia for free and it is not the first time it has happened. In fact it happens every time.

Since it looks like if we ever vote for them we are going to argue for a price with bunch of posters trying to give it for free I can't fucking bothered to go for it.

So you know if you are looking for a reason that is probably it.
 
Gavin Prince said:
Maybe, to beat the same drum I did this turn, Bretonnia's payment for Waystone secrets can be in blood. Have them commit forces to retaking the nexuses.

That's a payment I'm sure all the project members would be happy to receive in lieu of shinies, as it means they don't have to pay it themselves. And it's something that Bretonnia's rulership could probably swing support for as a chivalric endeavour against chaos/necromancer strongholds.
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Call it ancient memories from the time Mathilde was in Stirland, but I am rather against demanding blood prices for common people's safety.

Doubly so when you consider that Mathilde can easily deal with Necromancer strongholds by just spending AP.
 
Omegahugger said:
Call it ancient memories from the time Mathilde was in Stirland, but I am rather against demanding blood prices for common people's safety.

Doubly so when you consider that Mathilde can easily deal with Necromancer strongholds by just spending AP.
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Er... no, we could not. We are not taking on the Brass Keep on our own, lets not get entirely lost in the sauce of 'super-Mathilde' here that is going to need an army or several of them and we might steel lose. 'I can deal with enemy strongholds on my own' is the kind of thing they carve on the tombstones of those struck down by hubris, even if someone did manage it once before.
 
DragonParadox said:
Er... no, we could not. We are not taking on the Brass Keep on our own, lets not get entirely lost in the sauce of 'super-Mathilde' here that is going to need an army or several of them and we might steel lose. 'I can deal with enemy strongholds on my own' is the kind of thing they carve on the tombstones of those struck down by hubris, even if someone did manage it once before.
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Granted, I had forgotten the Brass Keep which is above Mathilde's paygrade, but even strongholds that need an army to be taken can in fact be taken by Mathilde on her lonesome.

The fact that it's illegal doesn't mean she can't do it.
 
Omegahugger said:
Call it ancient memories from the time Mathilde was in Stirland, but I am rather against demanding blood prices for common people's safety.
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I am once more reminding people that Bretonnia waged war on Empire twice in last two centuries, one still in living memory. :V I am not sure if people heard, but common people tend to die in those by the score.

I dunno what the vote will be like(because, you know, its rather far away still) but i rather doubt even if the option is there people will go for a payday. If there is books, some people will most likely go for that. I just hope there is some option to do more than just keep the normalized relations. And thats not something i would call blood price.
 
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Omegahugger said:
Granted, I had forgotten the Brass Keep which is above Mathilde's paygrade, but even strongholds that need an army to be taken can in fact be taken by Mathilde on her lonesome.

The fact that it's illegal doesn't mean she can't do it.
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goddammit Omegahugger I adore you but mixing a comedic bit with a serious discussion that's edging into frustration is not always the best idea :V
 
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