- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
- Pronouns
- She/They
obviously what mathilde needs to do is assassinate the tzar and make it look like it was boris
if no one's happy it's a good compromise
if no one's happy it's a good compromise
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
How did you manage to drag Kragg into this doom spiral, seriously how?
Secondly did you seriously compare LM Mathilde to journeywoman Mathilde? I could quote a list of all the traits and skills we have now and did not have then, but that feels kind of redundant.
Yes we are that good at assassination, we are one of the best on the continent at assassination, certainly among the best Boris has access to.
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Almost certainly less innocent I'd say, if only because of sheer scale. You can't rule a medieval kingdom without hurting killing a lot of people, that's not how kingdoms work.
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- Location
- Czech Republic
How did you manage to drag Kragg into this doom spiral, seriously how?
Secondly did you seriously compare LM Mathilde to journeywoman Mathilde. I could quote a list of all the traits and skills we have now and did not have then, but that feels kind of redundant.
Yes we are that good at assassination, we are one of the best on the continent at assassination, certainly among the best Boris has access to.
I mean, who did we assassinate successfully since then? When it was paramount that nobody find out that we did that? It's not really a thing we do. We might be good at it theoretically, but it's not our forte.
And yeah, a Lady Magister is also an important enough person not to RISK on such operations. You can't convince me that the risk of being found out is less than, say, 5%. Is the outcome worth it when the failure means the loss (and the Empire would have to cut ties with us) of a very important diplomat that is the central figure in the Empire's relations with both the Dwarves and the Eonir, not to mention the other benefits that Mathilde brings? We are not a disposable minion, which the best assassins are.
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Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
How is it crazy?
Kislev is not ready for another conflict on the scale of the Great War against chaos, not even close, and Chaos is rousing itself for something. We know that. But the Tzar isn't doing anything to prepare for that, this is a reasonable inference from every experience we have had around and with the man.
We do know Boris fairly well and this is consistent with his character, when we proposed the waystone project he met with us and he promised that no matter what if it would protect Kislev he'd see it done whether it was threaten elves or move mountains.
As for our current abilities as an assassin, remember that was before Mathilde was a magister, she is now a lord magister and every indication is that
A) He has no magic users protecting him. Who are likely his only means of detecting us.
B) His guards are loyal to his son.
He is not well situated to be protected from assassins of any sort.
This sort of assassination? No one we've never had the need to employ the skills like that, at least not against someone who isn't a vampire who you typically cannot get the drop on.
Lady Magister Elspeth Von Drakken, a much more important lady magister, would disagree.
Yes clearly you cannot be convinced.
Clan Esshin would disagree on that front given that their entire thing are extremely elite assassins.
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Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Matriarch, actually.
Lots of people, it's just that we do not usually care about exfiltrating quietly. Just as an example of a time when the exfiltration worked fine from a secrecy perspective, warlord of the Croaked Moon, sure they chased us but they never realized we were not a skaven.
Also this is warhammer, the best person to do any job is always a named character. I did not make the rules, talk to GW
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- Location
- Czech Republic
So, we haven't done this kind of thing *ever*, actually. What is your assessment of our chances of success, then? Based on what, our character sheet? What do you imagine Boney would write if the dice during the assassination attempt fell in the 1-15 region?
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I mean, you could plausibly see shit like this happening in any kingdom that has an external military threat, or even one that really doesn't, and that's a lot of kingdoms. Ambitious heir offs the old monarch isn't super-common but it isn't unheard of.
The part that's unusual here is that Boris is in a position to use the "but Chaos" argument to strongarm a very talented (and deniable) foreign assassin who conveniently is never going to become a major factor in Kislevite politics personally into doing it for him practically for free.
For one thing I see no reason why it would be a single die, sure that would be a bad start, but those can and have be recovered from. Now granted we could keep rolling poorly but that works as an argument against doing anything ever.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Like its very obvious @loonyphoenix you don't want to be convinced, but I've been down this road. I went down it a lot in another quest for years.
So don't do what I do and rewrite things to justify your narrative.
The facts as they stand are thus.
1) Chaos is stirring.
2) The Tzar isn't preparing for it properly and this isn't a surprise based on past knowledge we have of him.
3) Tzarevich Boris isn't an idiot, but he has repeatedly said he will do anything to save Kislev from Chaos.
4) We were already capable of almost successfully assassinating the emperor before Mathilde was even a magister. We are now a Lady Magister of the grey order going up against a man who disdains both of Kislev's premiere magic users. Mathilde could be an effective assassin with just half of her skills, but she has both and while I doubt it will be that simple the defences he has against the magical half are highly stunted.
So don't do what I do and rewrite things to justify your narrative.
The facts as they stand are thus.
1) Chaos is stirring.
2) The Tzar isn't preparing for it properly and this isn't a surprise based on past knowledge we have of him.
3) Tzarevich Boris isn't an idiot, but he has repeatedly said he will do anything to save Kislev from Chaos.
4) We were already capable of almost successfully assassinating the emperor before Mathilde was even a magister. We are now a Lady Magister of the grey order going up against a man who disdains both of Kislev's premiere magic users. Mathilde could be an effective assassin with just half of her skills, but she has both and while I doubt it will be that simple the defences he has against the magical half are highly stunted.
At the time Lady Magister. IIRC she killed the empress to shore up her position to take the job. But that just reemphasises the point honestly.
A messy difficult thing, but one where we would ultimately be successful as we brought to bare overwhelming oomph to finish the job and people are left wondering WTF is going on as an invisible illusioned skaven assassin blows up the Tzar with a giant fire ball.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
This update was posted shortly before I went to bed. I've spent basically every minute that I've been awake since seeing it thinking about it, and judging from the many, many pages added in that time, so has a lot of the rest of the quest.
I fucking hate this. But what is tipping the scale for me is that I don't think the deontological protection afforded to innocents (i.e. "it's wrong to hurt someone who has done nothing wrong even if it produces a path that leads to greater total utility") applies to heads of state. Fundamentally, the job of a ruler -- not just a monarch who reigns, someone who rules -- is "make everything better." That's the deal: you get power and comfort, and in exchange you are expected to make things better for the people who have lifted you high, and sacrifice whatever it takes to make that happen, up to and including yourself. Your life isn't your own, anymore: it justly and properly belongs to your people.
So I'm going to vote Yes, when the vote opens, even as I hate what this will cost Mathilde and, even moreso, what it will cost Boris. So put me with the people who have said "we are not extracting a price for this." The thing about things that need to be done is that they need to be done, even if you're doing them for "free." And, besides, he's already paying enough.
[X] Yes
I fucking hate this. But what is tipping the scale for me is that I don't think the deontological protection afforded to innocents (i.e. "it's wrong to hurt someone who has done nothing wrong even if it produces a path that leads to greater total utility") applies to heads of state. Fundamentally, the job of a ruler -- not just a monarch who reigns, someone who rules -- is "make everything better." That's the deal: you get power and comfort, and in exchange you are expected to make things better for the people who have lifted you high, and sacrifice whatever it takes to make that happen, up to and including yourself. Your life isn't your own, anymore: it justly and properly belongs to your people.
So I'm going to vote Yes, when the vote opens, even as I hate what this will cost Mathilde and, even moreso, what it will cost Boris. So put me with the people who have said "we are not extracting a price for this." The thing about things that need to be done is that they need to be done, even if you're doing them for "free." And, besides, he's already paying enough.
[X] Yes
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Somic
It's meow or never
- Pronouns
- She/Her
...Barely-a-Magister!Mathilde got close to potentially assassinating the Emperor on her test. And that was how many years and how much experience ago?
It reflects our capabilities, yes. I don't see how this is a question.
Worst case? We'll need either another attempt (read: overwork) or to eliminate a whole bunch of witnesses, which would be genuinely tragic, but by no metric worse than leaving Kislev to tear itself apart.
Mathilde isn't stupid. She can launder a favor like that. Hell, the success of the project itself is enough to do so.
You're missing the point. That was a statement about the broader feeling. No, it's not 100% accurate in every way here. But A) as a generalization it cannot be and B) attempting to be 100% accurate would be incredibly tedious and bloated. That's just something you have to accept when you do any sort of analysis.
But frankly, I'm not happy trying to dig up or conjure dirt on him, so the decision is easier. From all we have heard, he's good at fighting, and uninterested in everything else. Not malevolent, he's happy to let his son do stuff like that. Just negligent. And yes, that's not great. But "does one thing well and doesn't actively fuck up other things", at least historically, already puts him into the range of better rulers. I think taking the attitude "he had it coming for not being good enough" is morally worse than saying "it's not his fault, but we will kill him anyway". As far as I'm concerned, he's close enough to innocent for government work. Trying to invent reasons why it is not so actively makes the choice/story less interesting.
Assassinate Boris and make it look like it was the tzar
- Location
- Czech Republic
I am willing to be convinced. Let's try to find some common ground. I think this is worth doing if our chances of success (of both the assassination and getting away with it) is >99%. I think that what we lose to failure is about 100 times worse than what we gain on success. (These are pure heuristics based on my imaginings of the worst case scenario, can't really point you to the equation that would justify it, but that feels right.) And I estimate our chance of failure at about 5%, based on the fact we haven't done many assassinations, that we've previously had considerable trouble with exfiltration, and that we have never actually done a political assassination where we needed to stay incognito.
What would you say your estimations are for the values of success and failure, and how likely (and based on what) do you estimate the failure to be?
Somic
It's meow or never
- Pronouns
- She/Her
In my case, I think Boris is not the kind of person to resort to such dramatic action without having tried, again and again, to get through to his father with words. If he failed despite the known and present threat to Kislev, I feel no compunctions about finding fault with Vladimir. No ruler worth the throne should be able to ignore warnings about a threat to their people.
I know some people can and will find this position callous, but that's genuinely how I feel about this.
Ah, I see... My position is 'I don't much care either way given the stakes'. I was just being pedantic about the nature of guilt and innocence.
Something you're missing is the cost of not doing it.
Boris has pretty much stated that if we don't remove his father he will. That's gonna be messy as shit and could potentially lead to a civil war. If that happens then Kislev is weakened. Kislev is the Empire's best shield against chaos invasions
Weirdly, the Vow of Poverty means we are well within our right to turn down payment for this. Duty before profit.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
TBF, most of the things that can be justified as "to stop chaos" at least in Kislev are things about centralisation.
Off the top of my head, I imagine establishing the orthodoxy could be seen as an "against chaos" move, for better or worse. Similarly working closer with the empire would fall under the same banner.
A lot of greater evils can be justified, but they also do need to be evils rather than things that impose on the rights of Boyers.
Not that there can't be bad consequences from that sort of thing, Kislev's too big to be properly centralised and trying might be a bad idea as an example, but still.
But, if there's say an ice witch of ungol ritual to make an avatar of the Land via mass sacrifices or something I get the feeling whether or not that'd be employed isn't in Boris's capability to command or stop Tzar or not.
Also in a cold-blooded way we really don't need too. Boris is already going to be doing a lot of what we'd want him to be doing, preparing Kislev for invasion by chaos and when the time comes implementing the project's findings.
Boris has demonstrated he will do anything to keep Kislev safe from chaos and Mathilde has repeatedly demonstrated that while she might not be with Kislev itself she is still working in the same direction. Remember Boris was surprised to see us again and that we still wanted Kislev in the project, that he came to Mathilde shows well a lot of trust in her abilities and her motivations.
That's infinitely more valuable than than any single reward, its the sort of diplomatic trust that will be essential in so many things.
If need be (as an example) we can act as a messenger between him, the Empress and by extension the Emperor so that when Kislev calls for aid it will get answered not just ignored.
For sure we can probably ask for things like "male magic users of Kislev" or basing rights, or the library, but frankly...that's not as valuable and can come with time if ever.
I would say that's not common ground since you are expecting scientific certainty levels of success, so no I don't think you are willing to be convinced and you have said as much you are not interested in being convinced.
Our chances of assassinating him, very high. It depends on our exact method, but again to the best of our knowledge he has minimal magic support and he is often out of his well defended palace hunting things.
"Ruler has had a tragic accident hunting thing" is a very common cause of death even without magic or his guards potentially being more loyal to the Tsarevich than him.
As for getting away with it, might I remind you that when we did the goblin and ork jobs Mathilde couldn't fucking teleport! And that we were in a mountain often times surrounded by Orks and Goblins?
This time we could be in numerous places, we kill him in the palace and jump out a window, kill from miles away with a Jezil, mind blank him at a critical moment so a bear eats his face.
And as for what else remember we have the support of Boris the heir apparent and likely the Ice Witches and the Hag Witches. Any investigation into what killed him isn't going to find us.
No we have not done many political assassinations, but we have had the chance to practise them, based on our scores of going up against an armed palace, expecting attempts on the principle, before we had the ability to fucking teleport, I think we can likely kill a man in the woods hunting giant bears, goblins, trolls or manticores and if we can't Mathilde should return the fucking Lady Magister colours because clear she hasn't earned them!
It makes no sense to advocate for clearly the risks not being worth it, when the entire point of the quest is any action has a chance of failure. Generally a lot higher than 5%. We almost got fucking Tzeentched randomly, but we're not blowing up the Vitae!
There are risks, but to prevent a Kislev civil war just before a chaos invsion I'll take em.
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If we do 'extract a price' it should be something along the lines of a promise to work closer with the Empire. Something that strengthens both countries
- Location
- Czech Republic
I'm including the opportunity cost of not doing it in the value of success. I think that the benefits of doing it compared to the potential civil war (that I'm not 100% convinced would actually happen - again, it's to Boris's benefit to make us think it's a done deal, but he might still be hesitating and evaluating other options) is 100 smaller than what we would lose if we fail.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The reward I would like is Kislev's full cooperation with the Waystone Project, and it is quite likely that if Boris gains power he'd do that anyway, so not sure if asking would change that much.
Then frankly I think your numbers are wildly off. A potential Kislevite civil war could put the entire Empire at risk when the next Chaos invasion strikes. Compared to that the costs of failing the assassination are minor. Worst case we'd be kicked out of the colleges and declared a traitor. A high personal cost, sure but a personal cost compared to the potential cost to the empire.
We are a Lady Magister of the Greys. We put the Empire over ourselves