Remove ads

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Reader mode
Derpmind said:
I've always wanted to do an analysis on the Gambler, including going back and looking at the earlier Ranald's Blessing, but I never had the time for it... I don't think these are all equal. A lot of times we get good luck in ways that aren't as impactful as others. But it would take me a lot of effort I just don't have today to go through everything and try to make that kind of analysis. Still, than you for this, it's very useful.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

You are welcome. For what it's worth I think you are right, things like the Life Patriarch showing up do not seem to be something you would really need the god of luck on and it could well be that they did not change his mind in any meaningful way

Prime 2.0 said:
...Which is why the vast majority of the sentence, the parts you cut off, is spent on judging its in-universe likelihood of stacking.

Could you please not cherry pick?

Then why are you choosing not to engage with the rest of my value judgement where I specify the in universe reason for believing the effects will stack? It being lame is an aside, not the main point, and I specify that main point in the same sentence.

It is incredibly unlikely that a non ulgu apparition will use the same mechanisms of action as our ulgu spells so they should stack on those spells rather than be redundant with them. Separately, I discuss how the utility of red riders as a trump card to get ourselves out of trouble is dubious when they share mathilde's primary weakness.

That it being "lame" was worth mentioning at all was to provide a reason to be optimistic that the risk that new reasons are created to say it won't work might be low, separate from there being existing ones I haven't considered. It was window dressing, 17 words and not even a single sentence out of the nearly 400 I wrote.

Seriously, what just happened here?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Er... the reason I did not argue with the rest of your post is that I have no issue with it, I was just arguing against expecting the GM to carry our choices, the rest seems entirely reasonable.
 
[X] Plan Little Bit of Everything
-[X] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Rider in Red)
-[X] EGRIMM: Windherding (Stat-Swapping Mirror )
-[X] MAX: Study an artefact (Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands)
-[X] Attempt to create a liminal realm
-[X] Waystone: Foundation (Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi, Egrimm, Elrisse, Niedzwenka, Zlata)
-[X] Tributary: International (Kislev) (Zlata, Niedzwenka, Aksel, Tochter, Cadaeth)
-[X] EIC: Insert agents into a particular province, cult, company, or institution to start gathering their secrets. (Nordland)
-[X] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library (Grand University of Nuln)
-[X] SERENITY: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands (Egrimm as primary author)
-[X] COIN: The Gambler (Attempt to create a liminal realm)
-[X] Eike Actions: Lustrian books and rubbings study, EIC Agents in Nordland
-[X] Eike Study: Enchanting class at the Grey College (1 CF)

[X] Plan Dark Little Bit of Everything
-[X] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Whispering Darkness)
-[X] EGRIMM: Windherding (Stat-Swapping Mirror )
-[X] MAX: Study an artefact (Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands)
-[X] Attempt to create a liminal realm
-[X] Waystone: Foundation (Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi, Egrimm, Elrisse, Niedzwenka, Zlata)
-[X] Tributary: International (Kislev) (Zlata, Niedzwenka, Aksel, Tochter, Cadaeth)
-[X] EIC: Insert agents into a particular province, cult, company, or institution to start gathering their secrets. (Nordland)
-[X] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library (Grand University of Nuln)
-[X] SERENITY: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands (Egrimm as primary author)
-[X] COIN: The Gambler (Attempt to create a liminal realm)
-[X] Eike Actions: Lustrian books and rubbings study, EIC Agents in Nordland
-[X] Eike Study: Enchanting class at the Grey College (1 CF)
 
[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes
-[X] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Rider in Red)
--[X] The Gambler
-[X] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm (Cloak of Flashy Escapes, Shadowcloak/Dazzling Brightness)
-[X] MAX: Study an artefact (Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands)
-[X] Attempt to create a liminal realm
-[X] Waystone: Foundation (Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi, Egrimm, Elrisse, Niedzwenka, Zlata)
-[X] Tributary: International (Kislev) (Zlata, Niedzwenka, Aksel, Tochter, Cadaeth)
-[X] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defenses
-[X] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library (Grand University of Nuln)
-[X] SERENITY: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands (Egrimm as primary author)
-[X] COIN: The Gambler (Hunt an apparition)
-[X] Eike Actions: Lustrian books and rubbings study, Windfall paper, Windherder enchanting, EIC negotiation
-[X] Eike Study: Enchanting class at the Grey College (1 CF)

[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes and Ranald
-[X] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Rider in Red)
-[X] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm (Cloak of Flashy Escapes, Shadowcloak/Dazzling Brightness)
-[X] MAX: Study an artefact (Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands)
-[X] Attempt to create a liminal realm
--[X] The Gambler
-[X] Waystone: Foundation (Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi, Egrimm, Elrisse, Niedzwenka, Zlata)
-[X] Tributary: International (Kislev) (Zlata, Niedzwenka, Aksel, Tochter, Cadaeth)
-[X] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defenses
-[X] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library (Grand University of Nuln)
-[X] SERENITY: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands (Egrimm as primary author)
-[X] COIN: The Gambler (Attempt to create a liminal realm)
-[X] Eike Actions: Lustrian books and rubbings study, Windfall paper, Windherder enchanting, EIC negotiation
-[X] Eike Study: Enchanting class at the Grey College (1 CF)

these are my favorite plans but anyways here are my approval votes.

And approval-vote

[X] Plan Roadmap to Success
[X] Plan Roadmap to Success + Ranald Liminal
[X] Plan Red Rider Rushes Forward
[X] Plan Redshirt v3.14159265 w/Riders
[X] Plan Redshirt v3.14159265 w/Riders and Busy Eike
 
Going to vote for my own plans, may add approval votes once I see what options are available
[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes
[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes and Ranald

My explanation for my plans can be found here. Thanks to Pickle for posting my plans when the vote opened.

Approval votes:
[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes with Seviroscope
-[X] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Rider in Red)
--[X] The Gambler
-[X] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm (Seviroscope)
-[X] MAX: Study an artefact (Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands)
-[X] Attempt to create a liminal realm
-[X] Waystone: Foundation (Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi, Egrimm, Elrisse, Niedzwenka, Zlata)
-[X] Tributary: International (Kislev) (Zlata, Niedzwenka, Aksel, Tochter, Cadaeth)
-[X] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defenses
-[X] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library (Grand University of Nuln)
-[X] SERENITY: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands (Egrimm as primary author)
-[X] COIN: The Gambler (Hunt an apparition)
-[X] Eike Actions: Lustrian books and rubbings study, Windfall paper, Windherder enchanting, EIC negotiation
-[X] Eike Study: Enchanting class at the Grey College (1 CF)
 
Last edited:
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
One last attempt to argue for the Whispering. Darkness because it's clearly an unpopular idea.

The Whispering Darkness is an apparition that does two things—it envelopes it's target, and then drags then away.

The normal version is a cloud of black magic that drags its victims into the shadows whilst shrieking in a thousand voices.

The Jade version is a living plant that drags people underground.

An Ulgu version? A miniaturised, portable, target seeking Pit of Shades. A screaming, swirling, vortex of liminality that tracks down a specific foe and tries to pull them through an atomic crack in reality.

It is peak Ulgu.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
but Ulgu has pit of shadows and other spells like it. and I'm sure a few Grey wizards have some simpler personal spells

the most important spells to make and hopefully standardize aren't the most Ulgu of Ulgu spells, its the ones that push want Uglu does out of its comfort zone or only works because of 'that one wizards weird way of thinking'

Whispering does more Ulgu things (maybe better than what other Ulgu things!, but it's more of the same.

Rider is a new tool, that does something other spells in the list don't do.
 
[X] Plan Path to Ascension
-[X] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Rider in Red)
--[X] COIN: The Gambler
-[X] MAX: Study an artefact (Lustrian Rubbings)
-[X] EGRIMM: Study an artefact: (Kurgan enchanted weapons)
-[X] Waystone: Foundation (Everyone)
-[X] Attempt to gain control of one of your Arcane Marks (Mantle of Mist)
-[X] Attempt to create a liminal realm
-[X] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defenses
-[X] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library (Grand University of Nuln)
-[X] SERENITY: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands (Egrimm as primary author)
-[X] Eike Actions: Lustrian Rubbings, Windfall paper, EIC action
-[X] Eike Study: Study tradecraft with the Hochlander

Arcane marks are cool or at least they're probably cool, we haven't actually taken an arcane mark action yet so they're something of a mystery box Can you really resist a mystery box?.

Performing an Arcane Mark action is the standout reason that will likely attract attention to this plan. Besides Cython seems to think becoming a being of magic is cool so we should lean into it and get to work at taking a look at those arcane marks.
Boney said:
Cython turns to look at you with both eyes, and from what you've been learning of draconic expressions, it looks amused. "Does it matter? I have delved far deeper into Hysh since then. Such distinctions now only exist when I have reason to will it so. I am a being of light and magic, not of flesh and blood." It points at you with a single massive claw. "If you survive long enough, your path will allow you to become something similar. And the blessing of your species is that it will take you much less time than it did me."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Getting rid of a weakness and finding out more about the nature of Arcane marks sounds good to me. Anyway plan Path to Ascension is all about getting cool magic stuff done and includes looking at enchanted weapons, creating a liminal realm and exploring the possibilities of arcane marks and apparitions.

Other notes:
  • Includes all of our WEBMAT members each doing a job each, giving them a good reason to be a member but not overworking them.
  • Brings everyone onto the foundation so we can draw on everyone's knowledge for this final part of the waystone.
  • The rest is similar to other plans.

Now also includes a sevirscope edition. (Sevirscopes are a method to allow people to view magical with their eyes rather than their souls) Potentially quite useful in a number of fields such as creating a baseline for magical discussion, and letting a certain dwarf look at a certain runed up elemental.

[X] Plan Path to Ascension with Sevirscope
-[X] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Rider in Red)
--[X] COIN: The Gambler
-[X] MAX: Study an artefact (Lustrian Rubbings)
-[X] EGRIMM: Windherding (Sevirscope)
-[X] Waystone: Foundation (Everyone)
-[X] Attempt to gain control of one of your Arcane Marks (Mantle of Mist)
-[X] Attempt to create a liminal realm
-[X] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defenses
-[X] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library (Grand University of Nuln)
-[X] SERENITY: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands (Egrimm as primary author)
-[X] Eike Actions: Lustrian books and rubbings study, Windfall paper, Windherder enchanting, EIC negotiation
-[X] Eike Study: Study tradecraft with the Hochlander
 
Last edited:
I'm not entirely opposed to starting with a Rider in Red, since that's a pretty simple "use sword on enemy" type effect, and then trying for a more fancy Whispering Darkness variation of Cloudkill later on once we already have some skill with apparition binding. I'm just concerned that keeping two seperate beasties in our soul may have adverse effects, so it may be a "you can only choose one" type deal, and if that's the case I'd really prefer the Whispering Darkness.
 
Redshirt Army said:
I'm just concerned that keeping two seperate beasties in our soul may have adverse effects, so it may be a "you can only choose one" type deal, and if that's the case I'd really prefer the Whispering Darkness.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Keeping two Apparitions is twice as hard as one (But many golds have more than one so it's not on the level of being impossible for them at least), but there weren't any major theoretical road blocks to having two different kinds of apparitions as far as Mathilde could tell with what she knows.
 
OK, this vote is off to kind of a confusing start, with a bunch of very similar plans with variants and multi-variants spun off. So I am making a voter's guide that will help people navigate these, and will do my best to keep it updated as new plans get created and gain votes. For the sake of my sanity, restricting it to the top ten or so. As of this writing, here's a guide to every plan with 5 votes or more:

Do you like hunting Apparitions, studying Lustrian Rubbings, studying Waystone Foundations, spreading Tributaries to Kislev, attempting to create a liminal realm, copying the Grand University of Nuln, connecting Middenland and Laurelorn with magic, and getting Egrimm to write the godsdamned Windfall paper already?
Go to the next bold item!

Do you want to send Eike to enchanting school and then Windherd something with her and Egrimm?
  • No, I'd rather she learn to be a spy and do some mapping with Johann.
    • OK, but do you want the Coin to be on Apparitions?
      • Yes, I do!
        • Vote for Plan Roadmap to Success
      • No, I want it on liminal realm creation!
        • Vote for Plan Roadmap to Success + Ranald Liminal
  • Yes, and I want the gang to Windherd a device to provide artificial Windsight!
    • Grandpa Kragg will be so happy! Do you want a Whispering Darkness?
      • Yes, I do!
        • Do you want Eike involved on the Windfall paper?
          • Hell yeah, Windsight gang!
            • Vote for Plan Redshirt v4.53236
          • No, that's too much work!
            • Vote for Plan Redshirt v4 (Sevirscope)
      • Rider in Red or bust!
        • Coin on Apparition-hunting?
          • Yes!
            • Vote for Plan Bring Running Shoes with Seviroscope
          • No, on the 'scope!
            • Vote for Plan Redshirt v3.14159265 w/Riders and Busy Eike & Seviriscope, no speculum
  • Yes, and I want the gang to Windherd a Cloak of Flashy Escapes!
    • OK, but do you want the Coin to be on Apparitions?
      • Yes, I do!
        • Vote for Plan Bring Running Shoes
      • No, I want it on liminal realm creation!
        • Vote for Plan Bring Running Shoes and Ranald
  • Yes, and I want the gang to Windherd Egrimm's famous speculum thing that swaps two people's stats!
    • Reasonable! Do you want to go for a Whispering Darkness?
      • Yes, I do!
        • Vote for Plan Redshirt v3.14159
      • Red Rider's the only Apparition for me, baby!
        • OK, but do you want the Coin to be on capturing one?
          • Yes, I do!
            • Vote for Plan Red Rider Rushes Forward
          • No, I want it on the Windherding action!
            • Do you want Eike to participate in the EIC action?
              • Yeah!
                • Vote for Plan Redshirt v3.14159265 w/Riders and Busy Eike
              • No, I'd prefer her to only have three actions!
                • Vote for Plan Redshirt v3.14159265 w/Riders
Instead of AV and Kislev tributaries, do you want to use the Father to try to recruit Bretonnia and scout the Forest of Shadows Nexus?
Vote for Plan Daughters of Lakes and Shadows
 
Last edited:
Jyn Ryvia said:
but Ulgu has pit of shadows and other spells like it. and I'm sure a few Grey wizards have some simpler personal spells

the most important spells to make and hopefully standardize aren't the most Ulgu of Ulgu spells, its the ones that push want Uglu does out of its comfort zone or only works because of 'that one wizards weird way of thinking'

Whispering does more Ulgu things (maybe better than what other Ulgu things!, but it's more of the same.

Rider is a new tool, that does something other spells in the list don't do.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yes, but stabbing people is a thing Mathilde can already do, and casting pit of shades isn't.

I'm less interested in expanding the Grey spell book than I am in expanding Mathilde's toolbox, and doubling her swording is just duplicating a tool we already have.
 
Gavin Prince said:
Has Boney confirmed or "TI & FO"ed over whether Ulgu+Hysh with the spell-lists available to Egrimm and Mathilde would be sufficient for a Seviroscope?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm pretty sure we've been given the okay to try and make a Seviroscope forever ago, though it might have been before Windherding. We're clearly not limited to just spells we have though, as the skill-swapping enchantment isn't based on any existing spells either party knows, but a Cataclysm spell that they definitely don't.

But sure, let's ask: @Boney, is a Seviroscope a reasonable Windherding action to do with Egrimm?
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Yes, but stabbing people is a thing Mathilde can already do, and casting pit of shades isn't.

I'm less interested in expanding the Grey spell book than I am in expanding Mathilde's toolbox, and doubling her swording is just duplicating a tool we already have.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I mean Casting Pit of Shades is something she could learn if we were willing to take the risk, the knights on the other hand do not have any standard spell equivalent.
 
[X] Plan Path to Ascension with Sevirscope
[x] Plan Red Rider Rushes Forward
[X] Plan Girlscouts with Eike
[X] Plan Path to Ascension

Well, I'll probably end up tactically voting at some point, but let's see how these do first.
 
Last edited:
[X] Plan Roadmap to Success

Mapping tilea and estalia is not my favorite action but I do agree it has to be done and the rest is pretty much what I would want. Maybe no windherding but that has a bit of traction now so who knows, maybe next turn.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Yes, but stabbing people is a thing Mathilde can already do, and casting pit of shades isn't.

I'm less interested in expanding the Grey spell book than I am in expanding Mathilde's toolbox, and doubling her swording is just duplicating a tool we already have.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
PoS is 1 (maybe 2) AP away

as one of the best spell in the book, I was always planning on buying it after Rider. that was never a question in my mind.

the AOE kill spell to go with the combat kill spell.
 
Last edited:
Boney said:
What is Mathilde trying to do and what assistance is the Hedgewise supposed to provide? I need something to work with here.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Boney said:
Hedgewise magic is all about liminal spaces, particularly the point between wilderness and civilization, and about the barrier between the natural world and the spirit realm in its natural state. It's likely that they'd be able to have some sort of input into the matter of an artificial liminal realm within that barrier, but exactly how much and what is an open question.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So I missed this conversation but I can't see a resolution to the conversation and this topic is something that's been on my mind for a while.

As far as specificity goes, would "Protecting a liminal realm from unwanted influence (Daemonic)" be in the Hedgewise's ballywick?
 
[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes and Ranald
[X] Plan Roadmap to Success + Ranald Liminal

I love these plans, and I've expressed my thoughts on the Liminal Realm action needing Ranald before. That's about it.

Gavin Prince said:
Has Boney confirmed or "TI & FO"ed over whether Ulgu+Hysh with the spell-lists available to Egrimm and Mathilde would be sufficient for a Seviroscope?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm pretty sure Boney said that if we wanted to do a Seviroscope we had to specify whether to do it alone or whether we would try Windherding with Egrimm, so it should be doable with him.

I'm imagining a cool result that sees the contrast between the winds as though they were in chiaroscuro, but thats just my speculation.

Edit: Including a few other plans due to reasons.

[X] Plan Roadmap to Success
[X] Plan Redshirt v4.53236
 
Last edited:
Btw. At the risk of this post getting swamped during voting:

What is the general opinion on mastering our arcane marks? It sounds like it could be useful to me, or am i mistaken?
 
picklepikkl said:
OK, this vote is off to kind of a confusing start, with a bunch of very similar plans with variants and multi-variants spun off. So I am making a voter's guide that will help people navigate these, and will do my best to keep it updated as new plans get created and gain votes.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Pickle, I've said this once before and thought it many times since, you are a treasure to me and to the world.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top