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RE: the secret lore, that's something that we would need to investigate as part my evil scheme totally reasonable plan to bind our own ancient god. How that knowledge translates to the ability to shape and compel a creature as powerful as an ancient dwarven god-warden could potentially have applications to our own Apparition-binding techniques as well, as techniques that increase your metaphysical leverage over immaterial entities could translate to more controllable and less dangerous standard apparitions, as well as the true gamer moves like binding Cor Dum.
Forget 'our own ancient god'. Perhaps we can bring back Cor Dum. Perhaps Kragg could help burn out the Dhar in him. Maybe. It sure would be one hell of an achievement, and would give us something we so far lack - Athel Loren Favour. We must unite the Elder Races in believing 'that Mathilde really is neat'.

EDIT: Fuck it, I'm planting my flag. I will fully advocate for the Redemption Of Cor Dum as a project at every turn.
 
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Right, Borek couldn't know we would have been fine meeting Shadowgave because he didn't know Mathilde is a dwarf, of course back then neither did we.

Also I imagine Borek constantly failing to make a proper mohawk until Grimnir sent him a stylist in the form of Mathilde.

 
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Forget 'our own ancient god'. Perhaps we can bring back Cor Dum. Perhaps Kragg could help burn out the Dhar in him. Maybe. It sure would be one hell of an achievement, and would give us something we so far lack - Athel Loren Favour.

Ok, hear me out: we're researching the Waystone network, right? The main system that drains Dhar out of the world. And Cor Dum is bound the Karag Dum, which is itself a Waystone. Maybe once we really get the project up and running we can, like... plug Karag Dum into the main Waystone Network and suck all the Dhar out of him.

We might need Caledor Dragontamer's help, but I'm sure he'll be amenable once we explain things :V

And we'd need the Dwarves to be okay with us unplugging one of their Holds from the Dwarven network, but I'm sure we can get Thorgrim to sign off on that.
 
[ ] Wizard

Reasonable option that will emphasize her connection to her order, over more secular or foreign connections. Reasonable, but we might want her to remain more tied to the secular world, given the trade company she's set to inherit.

[ ] Stirlandian

Another reasonable pick, that would help tie her to the province she's from, and by extension the company she runs, as well as to the empire as a whole. Whether we go for this depends on what direction we expect her to take the EIC. If it will remain primarily an empire institution, then this makes a lot of sense. If on the other hand we plan to get the EIC's fingers into a lot of foreign pies - Laurelorn, dwarves, kislev if we get another favour - then this might not be as favourable.

[ ] Dwarven

Better ties to the dwarves, but also the weight of dwarven expectations will be placed upon her. Probably better to pass on this, as those expectations would be heavy indeed given all Mathilde has done for them. Especially as even if the EIC shifts to a foreign focus the dwarves would be only one of many factions it interacts with. Plus, dwarven mindsets/values aren't all that condisive to grey wizarding. Though I suppose if we want to encourage Eike to parley her heart-on-her-sleaves mindset into an unconventional take on grey wizardry this could work.

[ ] Religious

Goes against the secular teachings the colleges encourage, but that's worked out well enough for mathilde. However part of the reason it worked out for mathilde is that there was very little in the way of organizational stipulations that bound her, or could tell her her way of worshiping was wrong. Let's leave Eike's relationship with Shallya between the two of them. If she wants to follow us on this route, she'll get a good enough example just by following us around.

[ ] Secrets

Useful in emphasizing the mindset that secrets are the true weapon of the Grey Order - as much as Mathilde's huge sword might say otherwise. Generally useful, and something that is generally useful to a grey wizard, so a solid pick.

[ ] Swordswoman

While Mathilde might have a lot of fun with her sword, there's plenty of ways to be a great grey wizard without ever touching one. Let's not try to force Eike down a path that might not be right for her.


[ ] Blood (Greenskins)
[ ] Blood (Sylvania)

Similarly to the swordswoman one above, let's at least see if Eike has any interest/talent in fighting before throwing her in the deep end. Especially when this might set the tone of the apprenticeship.


Overall thinking that secrets or stirlandian is the way to go.
[ ] Secrets
[ ] Stirlandian
 
ANOTHER THOUGHT SWEET CHRIST. Cor Dum became Khsar, yeah? The boundary god of the desert, whose followers roamed far and wide? What if... what if Cor Dum is the god of Rangers?! We know the Dawi had ranged combat before the Ancestor Gods (and Morgrim invented the crossbow)!
 
ou watch him carefully. "You know, I only just decided against trying to follow you into Karag Dum, just to get some answers." 'Almost' might be a slight exaggeration, but you were certainly tempted.
I think you changed the phrasing, so Almost isn't in the sentence anymore?

Also, I do have to say it's interesting that Mathilde helped him with his Slayer haircut. From what I remember she's always really disliked that custom, so even if she was fulfilling her promise it had to suck.

On the other hand, it also pretty intimately ties her to another—eventual—dwarven legend, which will be hilarious in the future, even if nobody ever actually hears of her involvement there. Or at least, ties her to Borek as a Slayer, not just through the expedition that led him to it.
Perhaps Mathilde doing a shoddy job with the ceremony due to her distaste will get the blame for him being the Worst Slayer :V

I wonder what Mathilde would have been for the other Colleges. I think the topic was brought up once but I don't remember the details.
I have no comment but I must cite
"You say it so casually," Panoramia says.

"I'm familiar with slitting throats like you are with helping plants grow. In almost every situation, it's the best way I can contribute."

"Do you ever wish-" Panoramia cuts herself off. But it's a fair question.

"I wasn't born a Dame. If I didn't have magic, I'd be in a thatch hut on a tiny farm, probably on my fifth or sixth child right now, unless a plague or a famine or some roaming terror from Sylvania had carried me off." That's the easy part of the question, but it's not what she was asking. What if you weren't of the Grey? "I love Ulgu, but I probably would have loved any other Wind if I'd ended up elsewhere. The duties of the Grey Order are possibly the heaviest - except maybe Shyish." A nod of accord from all. Nobody envied the Amethyst Order. "I'd probably be happy amongst the Gold," you say, nodding at Maximilian. "Just before my Magister examination, I realized I could be happy if all I focused on was learning all I could - as long as I had someone else write my papers for me." You nod to Esbern and Seija. "And the Amber... I've spent a lot of days on the back of my Shadowhorse, and I've found the wild can be addictive. If I had thinking company instead of magic in the shape of a horse, I might want to spend my entire life there." Finally, to Panoramia again. "As for Jade... I visited your College, once. It was beautiful. It would be nice if the products of my work was the same." You pause as your mind flits through the other options. Bright Order Mathilde? Likely even more at home on a battlefield than you are already. Celestial and Light Order, though... no thanks. But you know better not to say those parts out loud. "But look." You wave a hand at bulk of Karag Nar, stretching high above you. "Karag Nar. In the past thousand years, the only humans to ever know that name would have been a handful of Dwarven history obsessives at the University of Altdorf. Now it's looking like humans are going to be living in it. Karak Eight Peaks won't be a historical footnote, it will be a home for Dwarves and for Halflings and for men. The throats I slit yesterday were ugly, but the better tomorrow they've bought is beautiful." Your mind goes back seven years, to the first time your actions had resulted in blood. "We deal death to the corrupt to prevent the suffering of the innocent."
 
ANOTHER THOUGHT SWEET CHRIST. Cor Dum became Khsar, yeah? The boundary god of the desert, whose followers roamed far and wide? What if... what if Cor Dum is the god of Rangers?! We know the Dawi had ranged combat before the Ancestor Gods (and Morgrim invented the crossbow)!

Makes you wonder what effects Thorgrim and Belegar's recent changes to military doctrine have had, as Dwarven society becomes more open to using "ranger-like" tactics...
 
Hey, actually, Khsar was notably one of the few Nehekaran gods without an animal form. (There's nothing for Kazvar either, but we literally know nothing about that guise besides "patron god of Tylos"). So I guess Morghur's bestial features might be a later addition, rather than something it originally had.
Going back to this for a moment, it's worth noting that Khsar is known as The Faceless, and also that Morghur is commonly depicted with his upper face mostly covered. I imagine that may have been a factor in Boney deciding this. What Borek told us also lines up with what little the WHFB Lexicanum entry on Khsar has to say on him.

The WHFB Lexicanum said:
He only entered into the covenant with the people of Nehekhara reluctantly and was dangerous to call upon, his gifts often double edged, the only exception being the horses given to the people of Bhagar.
I assume this would have been after the dwarves left - bereft of purpose, he sought a new role. He's presumably Faceless because he was a latecomer to their pantheon.

The WHFB Lexicanum said:
He is the god of the desert. His breath gives life to sandstorms. The Hungry God gives no blessings, Ubaid. Only tests. By those tests we are made strong, or else we perish. There is nothing else.
And this tracks completely with what he was doing at Dum.

...I imagine we may see an upsurge of interest in the Nehekharan deities. Maybe we can fit those with Barak Varr, given that they're not restricted divinity or magic books?

This theory would also fit with Borek's account of Morghur somehow changing or transforming the remaining dwarves of Karag Dum, as Hashut has fairly clearly had a transformative influence on the Dawi Zharr, given the whole "tusks" and "sometimes turn into giant bull-monsters" situation.
There is one source that posits the possibility that the Skaven (and by extension the Horned Rat) were indirectly caused by the Dawi.

The WHFB Lexicanum said:
There's a legend that the Skaven are all descended from Skavor, the son of Gazul, cousin to Grimnir. Skavor, like Gazul, was younger than his brothers and lacked the skill for working stone or shaping metal. He was rightly exiled for this, so he went away into the deep-earth and learnt how to shape his flesh instead of shaping metal turning himself into a hideous rat-beast and swearing venegance on his blood-kin. And this is why the Dwarfs fight the Skaven as hard as we fight the Greenskins, though the Ratmen have wreaked far less damage upon us: because many of us believe that the Skaven come from our blood. We fight them not just to settle our grudges, but to shed our shame.
You can see similarities with what happened with the Chaos Dwarves.

...I feel like I may need to either reread the update or catch some sleep to catch the full meaning of what Borek meant regarding why some Dawi would refuse to settle on Karaz-a-Karak and decide to go to weird places like Ekrund, Norsca and the Middle Mountains. Good night, everyone. I'll vote in the morning.
 
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I also remember your Estalia quest, noting down ideas for that too?
Boney is a very good writer, so I imagine some of his ideas will end up living rent free in my skull and even some that don't I will likely end up being in conversation with, but not as such no, since we have divergent takes on Warhammer and different areas of focus.
 
Hey, actually, Khsar was notably one of the few Nehekaran gods without an animal form. (There's nothing for Kazvar either, but we literally know nothing about that guise besides "patron god of Tylos"). So I guess Morghur's bestial features might be a later addition, rather than something it originally had.
Maybe, maybe not. It would fit my idea of Cor Dum as a Ranger god if he was the goat to Hashut's bull... A boundary walker, who could pass through any terrain unhindered.
 
So,
Tylos - Cor-Dum, Horned Rat?
Uzkulak - Hashut? (It's hinted in lore that something else is kept in lower levels of Uzkulak)
Norsca - Ancient Widow?
Ekrund - ?
Mountains of Mourne - ?
Lustria - ?
Middle mountains - ?
 
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what the heck boney (positively)

this is awesome, this is a masterpiece of lore. My brain is hurting thinking about this.

are the Skaven distant kin to dwarves if the Horned Rat is one of the older gods? So many questions.

EDIT: follow-up question... if they are kin, then is the process in which the Council of Thirteen become immortal a similar process to become a Living Ancestor? Is the Council of Thirteen full of Living Ancestors?!?
 
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When Mathilde was studying the old Tylosian coins from the Grand Urbaz vault (combined with what Cython said in another conversation) it suggests that the Horned Rat was originally one of the deities of Tylos before the incident that formed the Skaven.
So... This imply that Hashut and the Horned Rat are themselves more-terrible remnants of the Old Gods right? Am I reading this wrongly?
Karag Dum was founded by those who most mistrusted the old gods, and claimed a home with its back to the Chaos Wastes, as Chaos was the only force that could rival the old gods. We watched with suspicion as the Dawi turned their backs on a mountain range that could be mined for a thousand thousand years to spread to all corners of the Old World. Why Ekrund, pinned between the Badlands and the sea? Why Norsca, the shattered remnants of another prison? Why the Middle Mountains, desolate and cursed? Why risk everything to travel across the Dark Lands and the Great Ocean, often never to be heard from again?

"The southern Holds called us paranoid, even as history gave the horrible answers to our other two suspicions: Why Uzkulak? Why Tylos?
This is nuts.
 
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Additionally, is part of the reason neither the Dawi nor Skaven seem to be able to truly win their conflict is because it's sort of fratricidal?
 
Hm, is this why dwarves as a whole is becoming more ranger-like. Assuming Moghar is the god of boundaries-rangerning or a similar concept, and just as dwarves changes him, he changes dwarves.

Have his purification, somehow begun to minutely change the dwarven race as a whole. Not a huge change, but enough to nudge things here and there.

It would give credence to why so many more dwarves are changing tactics. Karak Eight Peaks is one thing due to swarm if Umgi helping there, but the rest of dwarven realm changing so fast(by dwarven standard).

Hmm, i wonder who these built city gods have become.
 
[X] Yes

[X] Wizard
[X] Secrets
[X] Swordswoman
I'm fine with any of these.
 
Okay, that's fucking bonkers

You know I was just thinking that the Waystone Project has so far been disappointingly practical and reasonable, not at all the mad monument to magical hubris we, as a Wizard Lord, are entitled to

So let's start drawing up plans for an expedition to Karak Zorn, surely we'll be able to discover the Horned Rat's true name there and in a plot not at all engineered by Tzeentch use it to kill it!

Actually, that gives me an idea...

[X] Yes
[X] Secrets

To be serious we wear a lot of hats, but IMO all of them (Dawizhufokri, Wizard Lord, low-key champion of Ranald) stem from the fact that we can be relied upon to keep and effectively apply the secrets of others.

We wouldn't have come out of the Dum expedition smelling so dwarfy if we didn't use Dwarven and collegiate secrets to save the expedion and Vlag. We could never have become a Wizard Lord so quick if we didn't turn Abelheim's greatest secret against necromancer and Skaven alike. And we wouldn't be so close to Ranald if we didn't choose Faith over Truth, to keep the secret of his divinity hidden.

And every one of those secrets kept have not only measurably improved the world in general and Mathilde's character in specific, they've also lead to us learning even greater Secrets.

If we expect Eike to be half the Grey we are, or wear even half of our hats, this is the lesson that she must learn.
 
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