Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
While it would obviously be ideal for the world as a whole if everyone in it selflessly and unconditionally acted for the greater good in all ways, I hardly think "evil" is a fair characterization of still acting to benefit the world but just attaching some strings to it.
Well, attaching strings to something vital for survival is evil in my morale compass. Feel free to disagree.

I disagree, because it makes it significantly more likely for us to get Waystones in the first place.
Does it? I would certainly agree if we exhausted other options, and the only way to progress was to fully commit with Tindomiel. And we will have an option to do so, they are not going anywhere. Why do we need to all-in for elves right now, instead of slowly cooperating?
 
Internet service is not a vital for your survival. Restoring Waystone network is.
And this

Just means "Accept our terms or deal with Chaos without Waystones". That's straight up evil.
You were earlier arguing that Mathilde would be making commitments she does not have the authority to make on behalf of say, Kislev or Bretonnia.

Other people argued that Mathilde is not making any commitments on behalf on any states, she is applying conditions to Waystones commissioned from and created by the Project she is in charge of.

Now you are saying that those conditions are unethical.

This is moving the goalposts.
 
[x] Plan: Just the Heir
- [x] [SCOPE] Laurelorn (0)
- [x] [REP] Heir (-1)
- [x] [FORM] Shrines (+1)
[x] Shrines for Heir
- [x] [SCOPE] Laurelorn (0)
- [x] [REP] Heir (-1)
- [x] [FORM] Shrines (+1)
[x] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly
[x] [HOUSE] Yes
 
Well, attaching strings to something vital for survival is evil in my morale compass. Feel free to disagree.
I think your vastly simplifying the complexities of the situation to make it evil because you don't like this demand: They are acting as evil as the lights or Jades did for us to get their help,

as evil as Thork,

less evil than the damsels are for making us have to prove ourselves or kill a lot of orcs before helping.

and as evil as every other group that will make their own demands to help in the future.

by your definition: the only ones that haven't been evil are the ward of the frost and the Hedgewise: and the hedgewise have been mind wammyed.
 
[x] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?
-[x] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
-[x] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
-[x] [FORM] Dedication (0)
 
[X] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly
[X] [HOUSE] Yes
[X] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?

"Welcome to How Many People Can Read Elf Anyway? The waystone project where the points don't matter. That's right! The points are like... Johann's shirts. Does he still have any? Where did they go? No one can say."

m e o w
 
Well, attaching strings to something vital for survival is evil in my morale compass. Feel free to disagree.

Ok, that is fair. I do not know where it truly stands on a moral compass, but I do believe that attaching strings is critical for practicality.

For medical care, we almost unilaterally attach the string that you travel to the specialist, instead of the specialist coming to you. (Especially for rare but life-destroying conditions like deformity cases)

For most parts of the world, healthcare also needs to be payed for by somebody. (Whether all-payer or individual-payer, someone pays for it)

So, I see your point, and I cannot say that you are wrong. I just think that it is practical and necessary to attach strings to things that are difficult to provide, but are necessary to survival.

For this specific case, I think it does tremendously increase our chances of getting real waystones. We have no one who is both capable and willing to go outside laurelorn and perform multi-wind enchanting to attempt to create waystones. (Under my assumption that the Grey Lords will not leave the forest)
 
I'm a bit confused. Let's say Kislev wants Waystone built by Ice Witches and dedicated to the Widow. Both of these breach our agreement with Tindomiel. What will happen?
My concern is that there is no way out of this situation, without antagonizing one of two groups. Either Elves, by working with Witches, or Kislev, by sticking to agreement with Tindomiel.
The agreement stipulates that Tindomiel must be given an offer. That's it. If Tindomiel refuse the offer, then the agreement is perfectly intact, and Kislev can build their waystone however they please. Why would Tindomiel refuse? Well, that's politics, and a matter between Tindomiel, Boris, and the Ice Witches. Think of it from Boris' perspective. Why would he settle for a waystone dedicated to Hekarti, or a waystone dedicated to the Widow, when he could have waystones for Hekarti and waystones for the Widow? The agreement isn't nearly as exclusive as you seem to think it is—the existence of Secular as an option means that they're not oathbound to only erect waystones dedicated to Hekarti. To be sure, Tindomiel could gain massive amounts of influence from this, but is gaining influence from supporting Waystones really something Mathilde would stand against?
 
by your definition: the only ones that haven't been evil are the ward of the frost and the Hedgewise: and the hedgewise have been mind wammyed.
I agree with everything else, but I just want to note that we don't know if the Father Coin is actual mind influence or if it modified circumstances just right to make the Hedgewise have the best possible opinion of Mathilde, within reason. Aksel already knows Kurtis, after all, and Mathilde is about as public as Greys go. For all we know this was essentially treated as a crit.
 
You were earlier arguing that Mathilde would be making commitments she does not have the authority to make on behalf of say, Kislev or Bretonnia.

Other people argued that Mathilde is not making any commitments on behalf on any states, she is applying conditions to Waystones commissioned from and created by the Project she is in charge of.

Now you are saying that those conditions are unethical.

This is moving the goalposts.
How, though? Mathilde not having authority to decide for Kislev and my opinion that attaching strings to Waystones is bad does not exclude each other. We can't force them to accept Elven built Waystone. I don't like conditions to building Waystones. These are different things and they happen at the same time.

I think your vastly simplifying the complexities of the situation to make it evil because you don't like this demand: They are acting as evil as the lights or Jades did for us to get their help,

as evil as Thork,

less evil than the damsels are for making us have to prove ourselves or kill a lot of orcs before helping.

and as evil as every other group that will make their own demands to help in the future.

by your definition: the only ones that haven't been evil are the ward of the frost and the Hedgewise: and the hedgewise have been mind wammyed.
Well, I haven't thought about situation from this point of view. I guess I'm just used to the fact that as players (not for this quest, but for overwhelming amount of games), we have much broader view, and usually have responsibility to drag various factions into the bright future.
I guess I just hate the fact that we'll need to enforce someone's seilfish demand.

The agreement stipulates that Tindomiel must be given an offer. That's it.
If this is how it works, and if we would be able to built Kislev a Waystone how they want it after Tindomiel refuse, then I have no problems with it. But I thought (and others suggested) that if Kislev does not want an Elven-built waystone, the wouldn't get one from us at all. Because it would not be Tindomiel who refuse, but Kislev.
 
If this is how it works, and if we would be able to built Kislev a Waystone how they want it after Tindomiel refuse, then I have no problems with it. But I thought (and others suggested) that if Kislev does not want an Elven-built waystone, the wouldn't get one from us at all. Because it would not be Tindomiel who refuse, but Kislev.
The deal would mean that when a Waystone is ready to be built, then Tindomiel have the opportunity to supply the person that will do the magical side of things. If they can't or won't, then they've had their first refusal and now anyone else can do it instead. The point of first refusal is that they won't be able to bottleneck a hypothetical future Waystone rollout.
"Cant or won't." Can't involves Tindomiel not having enough resources to do all the work. Won't involves them being convinced that they shouldn't be doing the work, for whatever reason, including political favour trading.
 
"Cant or won't." Can't involves Tindomiel not having enough resources to do all the work. Won't involves them being convinced that they shouldn't be doing the work, for whatever reason, including political favour trading.
But what if they are willing and able, and it is Kislev that don't want Tindomiel involvement for some reason?
I know this is pure theory, just want to know how it would work.
 
You know it is just kind of baddass to come into a room on a magic bed. I am surprised that did not get more of a reaction. Also wondering how old Isthien is since he looks old for a elf.
 
But what if they are willing and able, and it is Kislev that don't want Tindomiel involvement for some reason?
I know this is pure theory, just want to know how it would work.
If your question is what happens when House Tindomiel wants a waystone location above all else and so does Kislev, my response would be that 'Secular' is already on the table, so it doesn't make sense for them to be monofocused on building shrines to Hekarti in a particular location when they're already willing to negotiate on supporting Hekarti at all.

So in lieu of the two sides standing their ground, I'd imagine there would be negotiations, ending up in something not dissimilar to how exchanging favours for goods and services worked in setting up Expeditions or the Eye of Gazul. Kislev can offer trade/gold, diplomatic support against potential Nordland threats, and alternative Waystone sites. House Tindomiel isn't directly interested in any of these but the third, but they can still use them as assets when dealing with other Laurelorn factions that do care about such things.

So when the Tsarevich says, 'build this waystone in this nexus sacred to the Widow,' Tindomiel can respond, 'no, I'm conveniently busy building that waystone downstream, sorry,' even if they aren't actually busy.
 
How about we ask Councillor Isthien? He's right there in front of us after all.

"Will these dedications of yours affect the function and purpose of the waystones?"

If they understood the inner workings of Waystones well enough to sneakily modify them to siphon off magic to Hekarti or whatever, the Project wouldn't be needed in the first place, they could be pumping them out themselves. But if it turns out that the research the Project performs says that dedicating the Waystones to a God will change the workings of them for the worse, that is absolutely grounds to renegotiate the original deal.

One note that I have on this is that last I checked, Laurelorn doesn't really use metal coins. I think it was noted during our exploration of the city that they used wooden coins, and it was noted by Councillor Galrith that while they have use of things like Silver and they have an abundance of it, they need to keep it where it is for the Lornalim to prosper. Do the people of Laurelorn actually carry silver and gold to pay tribute here? The Lornalim Ithil and Lauroi seem to need it to thrive, and they're the only sources I know of that produce those metals.

Good catch. Mathilde thinks of precious metals as currency so this is an oversight she might make while casually musing, but the Eonir don't have them so readily available. Perhaps Tindomiel and Hekarti are patrons of the Lornalim with sacrificed precious metals from fossicking and jewellery and the like, or perhaps they reconfigured the statue from the crown-and-brazier model to account for the Imperial coinage that has started to circulate in Tor Lithanel.

I'll be honest, I have no idea where Huven, Varrel, and Seuchenshof come from.

The person that made the original hand-drawn versions of the maps that got prettied up into the Winds of Chaos maps I use for the quest also did expanded gazetteers for each of the provinces. The ones I use for the quest are the ones marked 'v2', which are hard to find because the first results you get for them on Google are often the ones that are based on the state of the Empire after the 1e WFRP campaign The Enemy Within.

Second, Cormac Bloodaxe. Another character I wouldn't have known if it weren't for the wiki. He's a novel character and son of a Norscan King who charged into Sigmar's Empire in 9 IC to take revenge for his father's death. The thing is, I don't think he was ever mentioned as an Everchosen in the wiki, but Aksel says he is, which is weird.

Mathilde is taking that with a grain of salt. Pretty much every substantial Chaos raid is labelled an Everchosen by someone, and if they were all right, Chaos would be into at least the triple digits of them by now. A quest-canonical list of the actual Everchosen does exist, but that information would be very hard to come by IC because Chaos doesn't like to talk about its failures, and everyone else likes to talk up how the Chaos Lords their corner of the world has defeated were the actual Everchosen.

@Boney Is it accurate to say that the Heir is less knowledgeable than the Priestess on Waystone-relevant stuff (though still well-educated), but has less religious baggage, more House connections, and room for growth?

That would be a fairly safe assumption.

I'm curious about the differences in how elven mages who follow Hoeth and Hekarti approach their craft, and who a mage is going to be praying to at any particular time. Is Hoeth more theoretical ("Please let me remember how the structure of this spell is supposed to go") and Hekarti more practical ("Please let me not miscast when doing this risky spell so that it's my enemies and not me that blows up")?

I'd like to ask Boney for more details, but we might need to get books on Hoeth first.
can't hurt to ask @Boney and I am curious too

Hoeth is the God of Knowledge, and His worshippers don't see magic as any different to any other field of study, so they ask for Hoeth for the wisdom and skill to achieve their goals. Hekarti is the Goddess of Conjurations, and Her worshippers see using magic as a form of worship in itself, so they thank Her for allowing them to perform magic and accept whatever consequences occur as a result.

@Boney is Nuln sexist in Divided Loyalties?

That's not a Nuln thing, that's a 2e WFRP thing.
 
[x] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?

Plenty of Waystones are in odd places anyway, not at the center of public squares. A few runes to an elven god? To stop Dhar? As the Colleges themselves testify, the Empire's said yes to far more uncomfortable deals.

In return, the project gets one of the Old World's top experts on multi-Wind magic. Every single research challenge can benefit from Tindomiel's theorist.

The heir alternative isn't terrible, sure. But what's our priority? Our biggest weakness isn't politics; it's sheer scientific ignorance. We want to fix Waystones and we have no idea how! The project may fail for bad politics. But it will fail with bad research.

I say: leave the heir, grab the expert, and let's science this thing.
 
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If your question is what happens when House Tindomiel wants a waystone location above all else and so does Kislev, my response would be that 'Secular' is already on the table, so it doesn't make sense for them to be monofocused on building shrines to Hekarti in a particular location when they're already willing to negotiate on supporting Hekarti at all.
Thanks for your answers!

Guess I still prefer to start with an heir and see where our own research takes us, but to deepen our deal with Tandomiel later if it is needed for the Project does not sound that awful.
 
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[x] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?
-[x] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
-[x] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
-[x] [FORM] Dedication (0)
 
Revoting to finalize. Basically my ideal anyhow.

[x] [HOUSE] Yes
[x] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?
- [x] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
- [x] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
- [x] [FORM] Dedication (0)
[x] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly
 
Hoeth is the God of Knowledge, and His worshippers don't see magic as any different to any other field of study, so they ask for Hoeth for the wisdom and skill to achieve their goals. Hekarti is the Goddess of Conjurations, and Her worshippers see using magic as a form of worship in itself, so they thank Her for allowing them to perform magic and accept whatever consequences occur as a result.
So kind of like the scientific-mystic divide to understanding that's been talked about elsewhere in this quest.
 
I think we need to start spending actions getting to know the elves. We did not have any problems getting a read in Stirland or Eight Peaks because Mathilde was important, spent time with the major players, and could understand who she is working with. Mathilde is a outsider here and dealing with elves. The elves part alone would be a hassle but Mathilde does not know enough to really get how to manipulate the people here.
 
Normally the mystic approach only works in regards to how a person decides to live their own life, and not in relation to their research (no, that mechanical setup will not work no matter how hard you meditate on the nature of physics, because those laws just aren't changing), but magic and divinity is a special case because the Aethyr really does respond to personal mindsets and reshape itself accordingly, so the mystic approach can actually work there. It gets you into a lot of the deeper and more esoteric stuff, but good luck quantifying anything substantial, or having your surviving work fully appreciated rather than cargo-culted. It's just that sometimes people really don't care if the enchanted relic should be utterly impossible by all known theory as long as it smacks Chaos in the face hard enough on command.
 
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