Remove ads

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
Reader mode
picklepikkl said:
The fact that Tindomiel believes that god X of the Empire/Bretonnia/Kislev is secretly Hekarti in a silly hat, and therefore is happy to dedicate it to god X instead of Hekarti, does not mean either that:
  • The human worshippers of that god will agree with that belief
  • Their belief is actually true
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I am not sure I understand? They are going to dedicate it to Hekarti and make it look like an another Empire god which they think Hekarti in a hat. And you were saying that discreet option was not dedication to hekarti which is wrong.

Because they are still dedicating it to Hekarti in all options and that is what I am objecting to it. We should not give such promises without knowing what dedicating waystones means when they are newbuild from the start. I mean have you tought that we might want to do dedications for other gods if it is a good idea?
 
[X] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly
[X] [HOUSE] Yes

[X] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?
[X] Plan Discretion Is The Watchword
[X] Plan Subtlety is for losers, but only at home
[X] Plan: Local Security
[X] Plan All in, but discreet
 
DragonParadox said:
For that mater are we sure the GT even knows what a Waystone is?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The broad strokes of what a waystone is are not some great secret. I'm pretty sure most people of national significance in the empire at least vaguely know what a waystone is and given a bunch of them are sites of religious significance, anyone of national significance in the religious sphere even moreso.
 
DragonParadox said:
Why does he care about waystones and how would he find out it was part of a deal? For that mater are we sure the GT even knows what a Waystone is?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Of course he knows what a waystone is! What do you take him for, someone who has never walked on a paved road? Sure it's a bit of a fancy name for cobble, but that's wizards for you.

:p
 
reignonyrparade said:
The broad strokes of what a waystone is are not some great secret. I'm pretty sure most people of national significance in the empire at least vaguely know what a waystone is and given a bunch of them are sites of religious significance, anyone of national significance in the religious sphere even moreso.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I mean they might know that there are these old elf stones that the chaos mages and necromancers use to do bad things when they break and they might know that some are sacred to Taal and Rheya, but would they know there is a network? That it leads to the Vortex? That does not sound like very useful actionable information and in any case the notion that it is some elf magic and not Sigmar with his hammer guarding the world from Chaos does not fit with their theology, so why would the GT care about elf scribbling on remote magic stones. We know Waystones are important, most people do not
 
DragonParadox said:
Why does he care about waystones and how would he find out it was part of a deal? For that mater are we sure the GT even knows what a Waystone is?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
He definitely knows about waystones, if for no other reasons that corrupted waystones are big trouble. I know we like to rag on the Sigmarites, but they're mostly competent, and that waystones are keeping out chaos is not particularly secret. Even assuming the current GT is a purely political animal, he'd at least have advisors who would point that they're kind of important.

As for finding out about the deal? If it's kept purely to Lorelorn, it's at least reasonably pausible to keep it secret. Otherwise, it gets quite difficult, because keeping a secret gets harder the more people are involved and the bigger the spread is.

Mind ultimately if the GT wanted a say on how the new waystones look, he should've contributed. Now he can should shut up and take it.
DragonParadox said:
I mean they might know that there are these old elf stones that the chaos mages and necromancers use to do bad things when they break and they might know that some are sacred to Taal and Rheya, but would they know there is a network? That it leads to the Vortex? That does not sound like very useful actionable information and in any case the notion that it is some elf magic and not Sigmar with his hammer guarding the world from Chaos does not fit with their theology, so why would the GT care about elf scribbling on remote magic stones. We know Waystones are important, most people do not
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
They are also dwarf stones. Sigmarites care about dwarf stuff.

Plus, they're not stupid. If every magical tradition, from Kiselv to Bretonnia, insists that Waystones are anti-chaos, and chaos really wants to destroy/corrupt them, then it's not hard to conclude there's something there. Propaganda is then more usefully spend on reframing them as Sigmar's gift (especially the human ones).

And they're not just far-off bits of stone. There's plenty of them in the cities.
 
Last edited:
BurnNote said:
He definitely knows about waystones, if for no other reasons that corrupted waystones are big trouble. I know we like to rag on the Sigmarites, but they're mostly competent, and that waystones are keeping out chaos is not particularly secret. Even assuming the current GT is a purely political animal, he'd at least have advisors who would point that they're kind of important.

As for finding out about the deal? If it's kept purely to Lorelorn, it's at least reasonably pausible to keep it secret. Otherwise, it gets quite difficult, because keeping a secret gets harder the more people are involved and the bigger the spread is.

Mind ultimately if the GT wanted a say on how the new waystones look, he should've contributed. Now he can should and take it.

They are also dwarf stones. Sigmarites care about dwarf stuff.

Plus, they're not stupid. If every magical tradition, from Kiselv to Bretonnia, insists that Waystones are anti-chaos, and chaos really wants to destroy/corrupt them, then it's not hard to conclude there's something there. Propaganda is then more usefully spend on reframing them as Sigmar's gift (especially the human ones).

And they're not just far-off bits of stone. There's plenty of them in the cities.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I mean who is going to tell him... and who is he going to believe? These are very secretive people and for the most part not the sort of people the Cult of Sigmar would bend an ear to.

Even if he does believe it how much political good will is it going to cost him to argue about not even Hekrati, but Hrkrati in a mustache? There are levels of obfuscation here an as far as I can see very little reason for the Sigmarities to ever poke them because this is in no way affecting their power or harming the Empire.
 
Empire is not monotheist, being able to shrug your shoulders and move on with your life over shrines dedicated to other gods is a basic requirement for any high religious office.
A shrine might raise some eyebrows, but a discreet dedication to a god already accepted by the Empire is going to be all but unnoticed.
 
Fayhem said:
[X] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly
[X][HOUSE] Yes
[x] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?

[X] Plan I will pay you by letting you do more work for us
-[X] [SCOPE] The Old World (+4)
-[X] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
-[X] [REP] Priest (-1)
-[X] [REP] Heir (-1)
-[X] [FORM] Dedication (0)

People need to understand: if (and this is an if) we reach the point of making whole new Waystones, one of the biggest potential roadblocks is a distinct shortage of qualified magical artisans for this kind of work. Especially relative to the kind of scale we'd like to produce them on. Yes, a number of places in the Old World do have their own magical traditions that could theoretically do this kind of work - but generally, a very large proportion of those traditions are actively committed to security and/or political roles from which they could not be easily or safely disentangled.

What House Tindomiel is asking for as payment is something that we'd otherwise be trying to buy from somebody, quite possibly even from them. And no, this agreement does not mean that they can bottleneck construction. The QM has explicitly confirmed that the purpose and function of the right of first refusal clause is that if House Tindomiel cannot or will not provide magical artisans when the rest of the construction team is ready for them, we retain full legal rights to just go ahead and hire somebody else. So why not go ham here?

Also, I definitely really want to get a priestess of Hekarti in here. The Waystone Project is distinctly long on secular contributors relative to divine contributors. And an Elven goddess of magic/spells is practically the platonic ideal of an ideal divine contributor. I mean, Hekarti was around and getting prayed to by the original creators of the first Waystones. If anyone would have direct first-hand knowledge of exactly how the Waystones were created, it's Hekarti. Obviously, a priestess isn't going to know everything the goddess herself knows, but it gives an excellent and convenient vector for the goddess to put a thumb on the scales in our favor if we start looking like we're getting somewhere. And hey - if succeeding means a whole shit-ton of new dedications get put up to her all over the Old World by a House that claims her as their patroness, that gives her a very direct personal vested interest in seeing us succeed.

Bribe. The. Goddess. Gods love bribery. And she definitely has the ability to make it worth our while.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I really like this angle of getting support from the goddess herself, but I don't like the idea of adding this many additional faces to the team. Has Boney spoken about whether leftover points are just wasted or spill into more abstract benefits? The heir here seems pretty unnecessary.

I would rather just make the Waystones fully religious, though. If we manage to depict Hekarti as 'Manann, except for capricious magic instead of the cruel sea', then her shrines might actually be an easier sell than some weird, secular wizard rocks. Our desired effect for the Waystones also nicely overlaps with what people would expect from appeasing such divinity.

Unrelated: I love how the digital keyboard I use on my tablet keeps recommending me 😍 as next word after I write goddess.
 
DragonParadox said:
Why does he care about waystones and how would he find out it was part of a deal? For that mater are we sure the GT even knows what a Waystone is?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Unless GT and Sigmarites are incompetent idiots, they will start to learn everything they can about WP as soon as we hit some sort of major success. Just to be up to speed if nothing else.
Valmond said:
Empire is not monotheist, being able to shrug your shoulders and move on with your life over shrines dedicated to other gods is a basic requirement for any high religious office.
A shrine might raise some eyebrows, but a discreet dedication to a god already accepted by the Empire is going to be all but unnoticed.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You see, there are Gods and there are Gods. There is a reason for no official shrines to Ranald in Empire for example. Shrugging shoulder ends as soon as someone in power decides that wosrshipping that one God is forbidden. Also, current winning option is open dedication, not discreet. Only recognizable by someone who knows about Elven Gods, sure, but not hidden.
CeBrudras said:
With what people would expect from appeasing such divinity.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I don't think that staking our claim on a whimsical nature of any God is a good idea. Especially when Mathilde is not a believer of said Goddess and never interacted with her.
 
CeBrudras said:
I really like this angle of getting support from the goddess herself, but I don't like the idea of adding this many additional faces to the team. Has Boney spoken about whether leftover points are just wasted or spill into more abstract benefits? The heir here seems pretty unnecessary.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Was not a mechanic in the Light College favor vote, so most likely not. Flavor text I'm sure there will be though.
Rafin said:
@Boney Can we bank any of this favor? I actually kind of hope not just for the sake of simplifying the thread discussion, even if banking it would of course be useful.
Boney said:
Re: banking favour, no.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
Tasoli said:
They are going to dedicate it to Hekarti and make it look like an another Empire god which they think Hekarti in a hat. And you were saying that discreet option was not dedication to hekarti which is wrong.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is our disagreement. I don't think this is right. The point of discreet is that it is actually, truly, dedicated to a non-Hekarti god. The fact that they are picking a god that they think is actually Hekarti is why this option is more appealing to them than Secular; the fact that they aren't directly dedicating it to Hekarti is why it is less appealing to them than Dedication. It's a middle ground option.
Boney said:
Waystone Form - whether House Tindomiel will dedicate the Waystones they built to Hekarti:
[ ] [FORM] Shrines (+1)
Tindomiel-built Waystones will double as shrines to Hekarti, and will be easily recognizable as such.
[ ] [FORM] Dedication (0)
Tindomiel-built Waystones will have carvings that can only be recognized as dedications to Hekarti by someone well-versed in Elven Gods.
[ ] [FORM] Discreet (-1)
Tindomiel-built Waystones will have dedication to an accepted and legal God of the Old World Pantheon.
[ ] [FORM] Secular (-2)
Tindomiel-built Waystones will have no dedication to Hekarti whatsoever.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
As you can see, the top option is an outright shrine to Hekarti, the second is a hidden dedication to her, the third is "dedication to an accepted and legal God of the Old World Pantheon," and the fourth is no dedication. There's a clear progression from most to least dedication to Hekarti going on, so I don't think your read of Discreet being "it's dedicated to Hekarti, it just looks like it isn't" is justified by the text: that's the second option, not the third.
 
TreP said:
Is that the only reason? My knowledge about WHF comes mostly from this quest, and I believed that Ranaldites are rather frown upon.
If that so, sorry about my mistake.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Not the only, but i would assume it is a major one.
Frowned upon, but still legal.
Ranald is a major god who is not proscribed at least in part because he is too influential to exclude.
So if Ranald was really into organized religions and official shrines, he could have them.
But he is a god of deception, so shrines that are deceptive are more his style.
 
TreP said:
I don't think that staking our claim on a whimsical nature of any God is a good idea. Especially when Mathilde is not a believer of said Goddess and never interacted with her.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The function will not rely on Hekarti unless that happens to be what our research arrives at, but for explaining to some random noble, who isn't about to read Mathilde's magical papers, why they should let her build some wizard stuff on their property a divine justification would be useful, even if it is completely made-up.
 
CeBrudras said:
The function will not rely on Hekarti unless that happens to be what our research arrives at, but for explaining to some random noble, who isn't about to read Mathilde's magical papers, why they should let her build some wizard stuff on their property a divine justification would be useful, even if it is completely made-up.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ah, you meant justification. I don't think we need this inside Empire. Our status of Grey Lady-Magister and the head of Waystone Project should be enough.
 
The Grand Theogonist is on the Emperor's Council of State with Dragomas. He'll know what a Waystone is.

DragonParadox said:
@Boney a bit of an odd question, but it says in the update that one of the villages in Norland was given to the Shayllans. How does that work with them being a feudal overlord and thus needing to protect the land and at the same time being religious pacifists expect in self defense? I can think of some ways you may be able to sort of edge around that, but all of them kind of go against the spirit of that vow.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

They could hire a non-Shallyan to organize the defence of the province, they could enter into an agreement with a local Ulrican community or Outrider patrol, they could hire mercenaries, they could allow the locals to organize themselves into a militia. The vow is to avoid personally killing people, it's not the First Law of Robotics.

CeBrudras said:
I really like this angle of getting support from the goddess herself, but I don't like the idea of adding this many additional faces to the team. Has Boney spoken about whether leftover points are just wasted or spill into more abstract benefits? The heir here seems pretty unnecessary.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Wasted.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Voting is open
Remove ads
Back
Top