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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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I'm not sure I agree with Redshirts assessment that Quinsberry knowledge will improve the attractivity of our library. We're in a dwarf Karak, backed by the King of that Karak, headed by the most famous Grey Wizard of the age (mostly because the others are anonymous, I admit). Saying "We also have an agreement with the Halfling Cult of Knoweldge" isn't going to be a substantial increase to our prestige. It''s like adding a +5 bonus when the starting number is 300.

The Verenan's will jump at the chance to be collaborators with our library, and whilst some of them take pride in the power and privilege hording knowledge gives them, that is not a universal belief, and many will be keen to join and become a part of the Karak's unique culture.
 
primemountain said:
If Verenian's get into the Library, I'll bet you within a decade one of the more zealous "all knowledge deserves to be free" types will try breaking into the secure stacks. With inside access, that type of threat becomes a lot more viable.
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I mean if that happens... they all die. This is a dwarf Karak in the middle of nowhere, they have no support network and practically no faithful. And really any Verenan that stupid deserves what the dwarfs give them and the world will be better off without them. Win/win.
 
primemountain said:
BTW, why are we contacting our future rivals about cooperating in founding the library?

People do get that the Karak Peaks Library is a direct attack at the standing and prestige of every major Verenian Library?

We're a growing threat to them, still in it's infancy. Short of getting them to take over the library, or some kind of permanent alliance where they have input into how the library is run, Verenian's are going to be a problem for it as much as they help. Every Goddess has weird extreme cults, on top of the political threat the Library represents.

After all, if the Library of K8Ps become the most prominent Library in the old world humans can access, a lot less power, favors, diplomatic, technical and political power will flow into the Verenian cult. So why are we going to the Verenian's again?

Do people think the assistance they provide will be worth the price to pay for it? Or are voters thinking they'll jump on the idea with religious fervor without also trying to influence it, or take it over and make it theirs, since it is in the domain of their Goddess?

If Verenian's get into the Library, I'll bet you within a decade one of the more zealous "all knowledge deserves to be free" types will try breaking into the secure stacks. With inside access, that type of threat becomes a lot more viable.
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That looks awfully alarmist. It reminds me a bit of the hysteria after Cadaeth proposed us to host the project. Those secure stacks will be secure, so probably with guards armed with big axes. And we can certainly ask Belegar to filtrate who of the Verenan cult get accepted in K8P.

If they try to take over the Library, they will get smacked hard by Belegar, because it's explicitly against the charter. Everyone must have access to it.

And yeah, I think the price that the cult of the goddess of libraries can offer us is worth inviting them in our library.
 
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primemountain said:
BTW, why are we contacting our future rivals about cooperating in founding the library?

People do get that the Karak Peaks Library is a direct attack at the standing and prestige of every major Verenian Library?

We're a growing threat to them, still in it's infancy. Short of getting them to take over the library, or some kind of permanent alliance where they have input into how the library is run, Verenian's are going to be a problem for it as much as they help. Every Goddess has weird extreme cults, on top of the political threat the Library represents.

After all, if the Library of K8Ps become the most prominent Library in the old world humans can access, a lot less power, favors, diplomatic, technical and political power will flow into the Verenian cult. So why are we going to the Verenian's again?

Do people think the assistance they provide will be worth the price to pay for it? Or are voters thinking they'll jump on the idea with religious fervor without also trying to influence it, or take it over and make it theirs, since it is in the domain of their Goddess?

If Verenian's get into the Library, I'll bet you within a decade one of the more zealous "all knowledge deserves to be free" types will try breaking into the secure stacks. With inside access, that type of threat becomes a lot more viable.
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Mathilde isn't going to go to the most extreme faction of the cult she can find, she's going to reach out at her own discretion. As an example, one faction would be related to the Great Library of Altdorf, whose residence in the University of Altdorf means they're probably already used to working with wizards. Or if not them, some similar group that seems compatible with her goals and standards. I support going for Quinsberry first, but Verena, Goddess of Knowledge and patron of most libraries really shouldn't be considered a bad option to reach out to.
 
primemountain said:
People do get that the Karak Peaks Library is a direct attack at the standing and prestige of every major Verenian Library?
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Because it isn't? How is our secular library on the opposite side of the continent a threat to the Goddess of Civilisation Law? The cult of Verena has no foothold in Karak Eight Peaks. By forming an agreement, we are giving them a foothold here—on our terms. We can only benefit from collaboration with each other—especially since each temple is decentralised, and therefore "threats" to each other—and yet this is something the cult actively encourages anyway. They see this as a good thing.

We are not challenging some tyrannical hegemony—we are joining a diverse and vibrant community as an equal.
 
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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Because it isn't? How is our secular library on the opposite side of the continent a threat to the Goddess of Civilisation Law? The cult of Verena has no foothold in Karak Eight Peaks. By forming an agreement, we are giving them a foothold here—on our terms. We can only benefit from collaboration with each other—especially since each temple is decentralised, and therefore "threats" to each other—and yet this is something the cult actively encourages anyway. They see this as a good thing.

We are not challenging some tyrannical hegemony—we are joining a diverse and vibrant community as an equal.
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Lord Snooty wants some information the Verenans have, ordinarily they could bargain him into giving monetary or political concessions for this knowledge. But suddenly KAU exists, now Lord Snooty has another option. KAU will freely give him the information, so if the price the Verenans ask is higher than the cost of sending someone to KAU he just send someone to KAU. The larger and more complete KAU becomes the more often this happens, the less people become dependent or thankful to the Verenans for their knowledge, eroding their support.
 
Jreengus said:
Lord Snooty wants some information the Verenans have, ordinarily they could bargain him into giving monetary or political concessions for this knowledge. But suddenly KAU exists, now Lord Snooty has another option. KAU will freely give him the information, so if the price the Verenans ask is higher than the cost of sending someone to KAU he just send someone to KAU. The larger and more complete KAU becomes the more often this happens, the less people become dependent or thankful to the Verenans for their knowledge, eroding their support.
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How does Lord Snooty know the information is there? He has no source to check for what may or may not be in K8P and a journey to there from any part of the Empire is likely a lot more expensive than asking the local Verenans.
 
Jreengus said:
Lord Snooty wants some information the Verenans have, ordinarily they could bargain him into giving monetary or political concessions for this knowledge. But suddenly KAU exists, now Lord Snooty has another option. KAU will freely give him the information, so if the price the Verenans ask is higher than the cost of sending someone to KAU he just send someone to KAU. The larger and more complete KAU becomes the more often this happens, the less people become dependent or thankful to the Verenans for their knowledge, eroding their support.
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By that logic, Altdorf University, the Nuln Gunnery School and the Collages of Magic are all threats to Verenan supremacy because they are institutions that distribute knowledge outside of the cult's control.

Also, I think you are underestimating just how far away KAU is. If Lord Snooty wants his free books, he has to send an agent to travel across a continent for several months both ways, or he can personally pop into his local temple down the road where he's probably a patron already and get back home in time for afternoon tea. Instead of offering exclusivity, the Verenan's can offer instantaneous delivery—or better yet, they can send one of their agents across the continent to fetch a copy of the book Lord Snooty wants.
 
Sparsebeard said:
I mean, we just bought books with our own money last turn. The limits clearly aren't only logistics and availability.
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There doesn't seem to be any such purchase in turn 36?

primemountain said:
BTW, why are we contacting our future rivals about cooperating in founding the library?

People do get that the Karak Peaks Library is a direct attack at the standing and prestige of every major Verenian Library?

We're a growing threat to them, still in it's infancy. Short of getting them to take over the library, or some kind of permanent alliance where they have input into how the library is run, Verenian's are going to be a problem for it as much as they help. Every Goddess has weird extreme cults, on top of the political threat the Library represents.

After all, if the Library of K8Ps become the most prominent Library in the old world humans can access, a lot less power, favors, diplomatic, technical and political power will flow into the Verenian cult. So why are we going to the Verenian's again?

Do people think the assistance they provide will be worth the price to pay for it? Or are voters thinking they'll jump on the idea with religious fervor without also trying to influence it, or take it over and make it theirs, since it is in the domain of their Goddess?

If Verenian's get into the Library, I'll bet you within a decade one of the more zealous "all knowledge deserves to be free" types will try breaking into the secure stacks. With inside access, that type of threat becomes a lot more viable.
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There's already plenty of Libraries outside of Verena's temples - we haven't heard of a cavalcade of fanatics trying to break into the Grey College or any other College or the University of Altdorf or the Colleges of Engineering and Gunnery in Nuln for the matter.

Sure there's going to be priests trying to break into the stacks... by borrowing books like all the other scholars.

The K8P library is a library - its purpose is to preserve and share knowledge. It isn't Mathilde's own great book vault where only she has the keys and no other soul may enter; the ideal is to have scholars from across the Old World coming to peruse its tomes and maybe bring a new book or two with them.

Jreengus said:
Lord Snooty wants some information the Verenans have, ordinarily they could bargain him into giving monetary or political concessions for this knowledge. But suddenly KAU exists, now Lord Snooty has another option. KAU will freely give him the information, so if the price the Verenans ask is higher than the cost of sending someone to KAU he just send someone to KAU. The larger and more complete KAU becomes the more often this happens, the less people become dependent or thankful to the Verenans for their knowledge, eroding their support.
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KAU is likely to be over a thousand miles as the dragon flies from Lord Snooty unless Lord Snooty happens to be an exiled Ulrican or is one of the rare literate Border Princes.

If Lord Snooty is in the Empire, Bretonnia or Tilea he's not going to use KAU to substitute for the neighbouring city's Temple of Verena - only if he's really passionate about a subject and free with his time he'll take several months for the trip K8P.

On the flip side the ones who will likely benefit the most will be people who already have massive book collections: the Universities; the uppermost of upper nobility - Elector Counts and yes, the priests of Verena who can actually collaborate with KAU and copy part of its massive collection in exchange for KAU to copy part of their collection thus spreading the knowledge around.

That said there will be dedicated scholars - Lord Snoopy might be one of them or might employ some; who'd get attracted to KAU since it is going to be the one repository for Dawi, Eonir and various human works (as it is not only founded by someone from the Empire but also sits between on the trade routes to Cathay). That's good since it makes Karak Eight Peaks a centre of culture and will also make Mathilde quite famous in scholarly circles.
 
There are scenarios were I can see an (unintentional) takeover of the Verenans, because they just end up doing all the important jobs because they're good at it. By the same token, I can also see an unintentional takeover by the dwarfs, for much the same reason (and because a well run library is a matter of honor, and how could you trust a manling with not even a century of experience to handle such a thing?). It would require Mathilde allowing it, but it's at least not absurd.

What I can't see is Mathilde, professional paranoiac, ex-spymistress and member of the secret police, allowing anyone, whether Verenan or otherwise, to infiltrate, no matter whether it's to take over or break into the secret stacks. Sure, she can be fooled, but it would be a concentrated, active operation, and inviting Verenans would not increase that risk.
 
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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
By that logic, Altdorf University, the Nuln Gunnery School and the Collages of Magic are all threats to Verenan supremacy because they are institutions that distribute knowledge outside of the cult's control.

Also, I think you are underestimating just how far away KAU is. If Lord Snooty wants his free books, he has to send an agent to travel across a continent for several months both ways, or he can personally pop into his local temple down the road where he's probably a patron already and get back home in time for afternoon tea. Instead of offering exclusivity, the Verenan's can offer instantaneous delivery—or better yet, they can send one of their agents across the continent to fetch a copy of the book Lord Snooty wants.
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It should also be noted his agent might get eaten by gribbles on the way or back, in which case he is out the information, the agent and their travel funds. Not really what I would call free.
 
Zero Gravitas said:
or the University of Altdorf
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As a point of order, I'm not sure that the UoA has its own independent library:
Boney said:
The Great Library of Altdorf, sometimes known as the Public Library of Altdorf, is a Verenan institution physically attached but technically independent to the University of Altdorf. Though accessible to the public it has a number of locked annexes that are kept from the public eye for various reasons, usually claimed to be preservation but often more because their topic is the sort of thing the other Cults might disapprove of.
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I think the biggest Single achievement the kau could be is to be a fall back vault. Libraries burn down, cities get razed and students spill ink on old rare texts. But if the kau has a copy, it is not lost. It might be at the literal ass end of no where but you can get there, get a copy of the lost book and return.

If the only thing the kau is, is a gigantic back up server for books then I am absolutely happy with that.
 
Zero Gravitas said:
There doesn't seem to be any such purchase in turn 36?
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I don't know about turn 36, but the very last vote before this one included buying books on Minor Gods with our own money. If the only concern was availability and logistics we could have used Belegar's checkbook instead. No rulers have infinite money to put into a project, there always will be a budget.

Last purchase winning plan :

[*] [LIBRARY] Library of Mournings: name two non-magical topics to hire Cityborn scribes to copy all available Laurelorn books on.
-[*] Hekarti
-[*] Loec
[*] [DWARF] No purchase.
[*] [COLLEGE] No purchase.
[*] [PURCHASE] Minor Gods (The Empire) Extensive and Esoteric (250 Gold)
 
Sparsebeard said:
I don't know about turn 36, but the very last vote before this one included buying books on Minor Gods with our own money. If the only concern was availability and logistics we could have used Belegar's checkbook instead. No rulers have infinite money to put into a project, there always will be a budget.

Last purchase winning plan :

[*] [LIBRARY] Library of Mournings: name two non-magical topics to hire Cityborn scribes to copy all available Laurelorn books on.
-[*] Hekarti
-[*] Loec
[*] [DWARF] No purchase.
[*] [COLLEGE] No purchase.
[*] [PURCHASE] Minor Gods (The Empire) Extensive and Esoteric (250 Gold)
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the limit is less money but rather the logistical/administrative capacity for managing buying a certain amount of books at a time.
 
[X] Plan Compromise + Verenans

I wouldn't mind bringing in the halflings but I think the Verenans would be more useful and because I think I'd find dealing with problems coming from Verenan influence in the library more interesting than whatever the halflings might get up to.
 
BurnNote said:
By the same token, I can also see an unintentional takeover by the dwarfs, for much the same reason (and because a well run library is a matter of honor, and how could you trust a manling with not even a century of experience to handle such a thing?).
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WFRP 4e: Empire in Ruins, page 107, excerpt from Catalogues of Confusion and Shoddiness: An Investigation of Manling Efforts in Scholarship.
Manling accounts of Sigmar's final journey furnish us with particularly egregious examples of sentimental ramblings devoid of rigour. In particular, I must excoriate the shoddy scholarship of Professor Albertus Knox of the University of Nuln whose 4476 treatise is fit purely for soaking in vinegar and applying to the sensitive regions of those afflicted by Kruts.

This Grobi-fondling wantwit fails to mention that Sigmar was reported passing Vithang Dum in 3050 — despite such information being clearly minuted in the 32456th monthly report of the Vithang Dum Caretaker's Council.

I must also decry the inane simpering of Professor Janni Shmidt of the Salzenmund University, may she lose herself in the wilderness with no hat come Skraksdeg night. Her account of Sigmar's last movements have him pausing to take in 'the awesome sight of the southern lands spreading out beyond the Black Mountains', as if he were some feckless romantic sap!

Does she think the Dwarfs of the Karaz Ankhor so feebleminded as to post watchmen with no eyes? No record taken at the watchtower of Zan Mingol mentions Sigmar passing by to the south.

SO HE NEVER PASSED BY TO THE SOUTH! DO IT RIGHT OR DON'T DO IT AT ALL, YOU TOWERING SCANT-BEARDED IMBECILES!
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Andres said:
WFRP 4e: Empire in Ruins, page 107, excerpt from Catalogues of Confusion and Shoddiness: An Investigation of Manling Efforts in Scholarship.
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Oh lovely, calendar confusion.

This source has the Dwarf calendar as starting* at -3000 IC**, while the 8th edition Dwarfs timeline has it at -4523 IC.

(The Nuln scholar wrote her work in 1476 IC going by the standard used in that passage)

*Dwarf year 1 being the official founding of Karaz-a-Karak by Valaya
**Sigmar's passage from the Empire occured 50 IC, that is, after 50 years of ruling the Empire
 
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