Life is nowhere near this simple. Someone can be smart and wrong. Someone can be well-intentioned and wrong. Someone can be extremely skilled in some fields and still be wrong about others.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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Life is nowhere near this simple. Someone can be smart and wrong. Someone can be well-intentioned and wrong. Someone can be extremely skilled in some fields and still be wrong about others.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
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That's completely true. I simply don't think it's the case here.
I'm not arguing one way or the other about whether that's the case here, I'm just pointing out that there exist possibilities beyond 'absolutely correct' and 'idiotic self-sabotaging tyrant'.
[X] Yes
[X] Magister Tochter Grunfeld
[X] Egrimm, to celebrate his imminent promotion and gauge his reaction to it.
[X] Elrisse, to get to know the most recent contributor to the Project.
[X] Cython, to talk obliquely of what it means for a God to have offspring.
[X] Panoramia, to talk about how well her project in the Eastern Valley seems to be going.
[X] Magister Tochter Grunfeld
[X] Egrimm, to celebrate his imminent promotion and gauge his reaction to it.
[X] Elrisse, to get to know the most recent contributor to the Project.
[X] Cython, to talk obliquely of what it means for a God to have offspring.
[X] Panoramia, to talk about how well her project in the Eastern Valley seems to be going.
Fayhem
Definitely not an escaped SCP
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What makes you think it isn't being utilized? I mean, actually creating new Waystones is something the thread likes to dream about, but in-universe it's so far beyond anything currently within the scope of the Waystones Project that literally no one is expecting that as an outcome. There is a substantial range of "useful" below that point, and that is the range that literally all the current and planned-for contributors to the Project up to and including the Grey Lords and Thorek are occupying.
Like. These rituals, etc, are still being actively used and practiced by members in good standing of the Jade Order. The entire reason Paranoth is presenting himself as being reluctant to empower them is that they're NOT a fringe group. You can assume that Paranoth must be correct about what constitutes valid and useful knowledge within the Jade Order because he's the Patriarch, but that's an assumption whose logical premise closely resembles the one you'd use to assume that Thorgrim must always be correct about what the Karaz Ankor can and should be doing because he's the duly elected High King.
*he was dubious of the value of what his political and academic rivals had to offer. FTFY. Or you could also accurately modify that further as *he presented himself as being dubious of the value of what his political and academic rivals had to offer. The seeming assumptions of both absolute objectivity and absolute honesty for Paranoth are peculiar to me, given how vanishingly few people are actually either.
Codex
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If Paranoth was giving us advice on what the best sights are in each continent, I would listen to him absolutely. His advice about the political factions in his Order when most people working under him don't even know where he is most of the time, not so much:
If he was like Algard, I would put more weight on his words when it comes to his own Order. Unfortunately, he might be the person I trust the least when it comes to advice about his own Order.
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Even less than Alric? That's a bit novel for this thread.
Not entirely true, the Grey lords can make minor new 'waystones' in the form of their golden trees, it is just that they cannot make the larger ones and the trees are not scalable.
Codex
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Alric would be very biased yes, but at least he knows his own Order and spent practically a century involved in their politics. Paranoth barely spends any time in his Order.
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Alric without a doubt knows about the politics of the light order, but we disagree with his actions, so anything he says is "fruit from the poison tree"
Paranoth is a very hands off leader, who can't possibly be super up to date with the day to day politics of his order.
Imo, Argburg will replace him soon. She had the ambition to take a swipe at Dragomas while freshly promoted.
Burned_Cookie
Very tired girl.
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In bringing the druids on board, we might end up making them scaleable instead of fixing te older ones.
Who wants to build a world tree everyone?
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You mean like the oak of ages?
Codex
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If the little Ghyran seed we have is from the Oak of Ages then we already have a cutting that could maybe be nurtured into a magical tree. Doubt it'd be as good as the Oak of Ages and besides it sounds like the kind of thing that would cause the Asrai to launch a holy war or something.
I truly don't know how much the Eonir know about magical trees. They don't have an Oak of Ages equivalent, but they got magic trees, even if they're not as... interesting as the Asrai's. Hell, I don't think we know if they can access the World Roots.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
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Considering said academic rivals disagree with Teclis, i am inclined to trust him more than i am inclined not to. Especially since it was Teclis who awoke the offline waystones, not the Druidic tradition. You might notice that thats what we want to do, wake up the waystones.
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I think this is a classic "they can't be right or I'm wrong" situation. Paranoth and his allies think that the Teclis model is the only correct one and that any involment of religion in his order is old and backwards. While his enemies think it's a valuable part of their tradition and probably has something more behind it.
The truth is probably again somewhere in the middle of this and combining the two ways could be valuable but then someone would need to start with "OK maybe I was not completely correct." and that's probably not happening...
The truth is probably again somewhere in the middle of this and combining the two ways could be valuable but then someone would need to start with "OK maybe I was not completely correct." and that's probably not happening...
I mean, the Druidic faction in the Jade Order has already made concessions to the Teclis model since they are part of the Colleges founded by Teclis. The people on that side who refuse to admit that they were even somewhat wrong probably never joined the Order to begin with. So I think this isn't a situation with both sides being equally stubborn: one side believes that their ancient traiditions have some worth and are at least partly truth, and the other side denies it.
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Teclisian magic is explicitly not the only valid framework in the setting, to the point where there are magic users in the Empire it can't explain (the Elementalists, Divine magic, possibly more.)
Also, Teclis has not only not declared the old ways to be complete nonsense, but the rituals he established were derived from what they were doing before - an adaptation, not a complete restart from scratch. There's something there.
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Relevant quotes from Boney:
Teclis had the guts to say that Divine Magic isn't real in front of the Colleges and expected them to believe it. Of course the Colleges know that his theory and model isn't perfect and it doesn't apply in many situations.
Teclis' model is Elven in nature. Humans are not Elves, they don't have to follow the same paradigm. Same as the Dwarves, who also do things that Teclisean theory can't explain.
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Mathilde has her own biases
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
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Afaik, the elementalists don't have the reputation of knowing anything useful concerning Waystones. Maybe it's simply that Mathilde doesn't think their knowledge can be relevant.
There's nothing to indicate that Elementalists are inheritors of any sort of tradition that might know anything about the Waystones.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
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- Czech Republic
I did not say that. I just repeated what Paranoth said. That Teclis showed up and woke up the local Waystone where centuries of druidic rituals did jack shit.