- Location
- Finland
That does not mean the ancient rituals don't hold useful secrets.
They just don't have the "reboot/restart" button knowledge.
At least not on their own.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
They just don't have the "reboot/restart" button knowledge.
At least not on their own.
Being fair that only proves that Teclis himself was more skilled than the the ritualists in that one instance, it could be that the rituals to work on other waystones (which are not made by elves) or can somehow impact active stones in another way.
Burned_Cookie
Very tired girl.
- Location
- Plato´s cave.
- Pronouns
- She/Her/It/Its
I´d also like to point out that even after being offline presumably due to breaking down, it was in good enough condition for Teclis to hit the ON button and it ran.
Now there are several possible explanations for that, but one of the more likely ones is that whatever restorative rituals the druids where doing worked, they just didn´t know how to actually reboot the thing.
Probably because the Waystones are a mix of divine and arcane (and a bunch of other) effects, so fixing the spiritual issue was good but not enough.
Now there are several possible explanations for that, but one of the more likely ones is that whatever restorative rituals the druids where doing worked, they just didn´t know how to actually reboot the thing.
Probably because the Waystones are a mix of divine and arcane (and a bunch of other) effects, so fixing the spiritual issue was good but not enough.
i think the more likely explanation is that it's a rock and does not need maintenance as long as a dark wizard/beastmen shaman does not crack it open like an egg.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I'm curious which version of the army list came first, the White Dwarf article or the Storm of Chaos army?
Far as I can tell they're mostly the same, with the main difference I could see being the personal weapon of the Ar-Ulric; Storm of Chaos has the Hammer-Axe of Skoll, which gives him either Strength, Killing Blow, or Strength + Extra Attacks on a charge depending on the roll of a d6, while the WD army list has Blitzbeil, which gives +1 S, ignores armor saves, and makes all enemy models in base contact with the Ar-Ulric strike last.
I had a really weird nightmare about Divided Loyalties last night.
It started off okay, with Boney introducing a new character—a military officer with the upper body of a woman and the lower body of a cybernetic horse, and who used them/they pronouns. The thread fell in love with them (well, they were a cyborg centaur) and jumped on the first action Mathilde could do with them.
But the thread didn't actually read what the action was, and that was to secretly investigate Calloch, the perpetual apprentice.
This investigation involved Mathilde disguising herself as Calloch and taking his place for a day to learn who he was, including some intimate scenes with his family. (Weirdly, this part of the dream was in first person as Mathilda, previously I had been reading the thread as myself).
When Pan found out we'd impersonated her father, she got really upset with the invasion of her privacy, and after a very long, angry and tearful argument, broke up with Mathilde.
At which point I woke and began to question my sanity.
It started off okay, with Boney introducing a new character—a military officer with the upper body of a woman and the lower body of a cybernetic horse, and who used them/they pronouns. The thread fell in love with them (well, they were a cyborg centaur) and jumped on the first action Mathilde could do with them.
But the thread didn't actually read what the action was, and that was to secretly investigate Calloch, the perpetual apprentice.
This investigation involved Mathilde disguising herself as Calloch and taking his place for a day to learn who he was, including some intimate scenes with his family. (Weirdly, this part of the dream was in first person as Mathilda, previously I had been reading the thread as myself).
When Pan found out we'd impersonated her father, she got really upset with the invasion of her privacy, and after a very long, angry and tearful argument, broke up with Mathilde.
At which point I woke and began to question my sanity.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
There are fairly significant differences. Mainly that the White Dwarf is the army of the Cult of Ulric, Storm of Chaos is the Army of Middenheim. It seems to me like White Dwarf came first. White Dwarf focuses on the Cult, Storm focuses on the City. I'm also pretty sure they changed the way "Crush the Weak" works between them.
I honestly think it's kind of funny that Ulricans have Hatred against anyone with Leadership 6 or lower. Ironically this makes them good against Skaven. I suppose this is part of what led Mandred to victory.
Eh... not that weird IMO, I once dreamed the entire next update for a quest and rushed to type it down because it was a good one.
consequences
Not A Nice Person At All
- Location
- Jerkville
Taking a Teclis Feat(TM) as much of an indication on anything other than 'this is something Teclis can do' seems kind of ill advised.
Also, belief tends to matter in WHF, especially when it comes to magical and divine goings on. If Paranoth doesnt believe in Druid Bullshit, it's very definitely not going to function for him.
Also, belief tends to matter in WHF, especially when it comes to magical and divine goings on. If Paranoth doesnt believe in Druid Bullshit, it's very definitely not going to function for him.
- Location
- Austria
Mmlol.
Have you heard the tragedy of Californian wildfires?
I thought not. It is not a tale that academics would tell you. It's a native peoples legend.
Or, memes aside. There were, among native inhabitants of California, an old tradition/habit of controlled burns, in order to prevent massive wildfires.
When colonizers came, they went "our superior science says different, yall's savage rituals are dumb", decided not to do controlled burns and settle in randomest of places, because surely modern science would protect them from fires by superior forestry technique.
The scientists admitted to having fucked up after century of insisting on academia being infallible. By 1978, them and officials finally admitted they were stupid and natives were right all along. More than a century of closing eyes on the fact that "zero forest fires" policy is stupid, unworkable and is actively making fires worse. Imagine this degree of willful ignorance when solution a) was right there; b) they were told by locals it was right there.
And of course, practical implementation is still deeply work in progress, not even close to getting back to what locals did.
What I am saying is that academia can be incredibly unable to accept that non-academic source of knowledge is right. Even within academia, there is a saying that science moves at the speed of old academicians (and their networks of patronage and influence) dying, and it is only worse with what is perceived as "non-scientific" source.
So. I am inclined to at least try druids. They can be wrong, but given that Imperial Waystone network was somehow not-fallen-apart for a long while before Teclis came there, pre-Teclisean locals probably knew a thing or two. Maybe less than literal Teclis, but literal Teclis did not reach imperials everything he knew either, so it is worth a shot.
[X] Yes
[X] Magister Tochter Grunfeld
[X] Egrimm, to celebrate his imminent promotion and gauge his reaction to it.
[X] Elrisse, to get to know the most recent contributor to the Project.
[X] Cython, to talk obliquely of what it means for a God to have offspring.
[X] Panoramia, to talk about how well her project in the Eastern Valley seems to be going.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Indeed, surely we should trust Lord Kelvin on the age of the earth/sun and not those stupid biologists who claim it was billions of years when no chemical reaction can last that long. After all, if the biologists were right, then how is the sun still warm?
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
I mean the example you're using is real but it doesn't change the fact that the High Elves And Dwarves literally created them, and the High Elves didn't actually lose their knowledge on them, if Teclis went "Yea you guys know nothing" the fact that Teclissian paradigm of magic doesn't properly explain divine magic or other strange forms like the Elementalists changes very little ultimately, because the waystones aren't divine magic and they aren't Elementalist magic.
They're High Elven magic and Dwarven runic magic and that needs to be kept in mind.
As for the Empires waystones having not fallen apart well they're basically giant rocks unless they were corrupted or destroyed by outside forces I don't think they really need 'maintenance'.
I'm not saying the Jades have nothing useful to add but anything they bring to the table is only likely to be useful for further sleight of hand and bluffing which honestly I'm hoping we can do better than.
I don't think this like of discussion is likely to be productive given that the particulars don't remotely fit the situation. The waystone network wasn't created by the druids, it's High elf and Dwarf work.
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Not all of them, the ogghams and a good part of just random ass stones are made by humans. No idea how they made them but the elves didn't help, the human tribes absolutely imitated what the waystones did but they did it on their own.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
The High Elves both explicitly have lost a great deal of Waystones knowledge (otherwise they could just build more) and also didn't build all of the Waystones or Waystone-analogues.
If the High Elves already knew everything, this entire project would be pointless.
We are not sure if the high elves can make more waystones, it might be that they can but lack the time and resources to do so. Even if they do know they are obviously not going to tell us because they are arrogant the same way the dwarfs are vengeful, to the point of self-harm.
Burned_Cookie
Very tired girl.
- Location
- Plato´s cave.
- Pronouns
- She/Her/It/Its
Yes. There is an entire Karak that would level a literal mountain of grudges at the killer of their savior.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Even Humans brought up under Teclisianism can apply magic invented by Elves in ways no Elf would ever have imagined. The idea that ancient orders of Human mages can find workarounds to do stuff with Dwarf/Elf artefacts that would be far harder for Dwarf/Elves to do doesn't seem far fetched to me.
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Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I don't think I posted this in the thread, but I think I have some idea on what Cadaeth is exactly:
In the books, there's a distinction made between Naiads, who are river spirits, and Dryads, who are forest spirits. Aside from that, there isn't much distinction between different types of Dryad, aside from them being able to assume different forms. This includes a disguised "innocent" form and a "Battle Form", and in older editions that included the ability for them to change their aspect from Oak to Willow to Ash to Birch, all of which had different effects.
I think it's fair to say that Cadaeth is a Forest Spirit more than a River Spirit, considering the domain she invited us to. She also strikes me as powerful/influential, as she is a Vicerine and part of the Council of Frost as well as the official ambassador. There's also the fact that she can create a pocket dimension in an area that isn't hers, which is impressive even if trees in general resonate with her.
That leads me to the conclusion that she is a "Branch Nymph". What is a Branch Nymph? Well, Dryads have three evolutions in the tabletop. The foot soldiers of which there are plenty are the Dryads. The Unit Champions of a unit of Dryads is a Branch Nymph. At the top of the food chain is the Branchwraith Hero Unit. Cadaeth might be a Branchwraith, but some part of me insists that that's not quite right. Not sure why. It's quite possible she's a Branchwraith instead of a Nymph, but I don't think we have enough info one way or the other.
Of course, all this could be pointless and it turns out I'm missing something/Boney's going in a different direction, but hey. That's what speculation's like.
You see, there isn't much actualy discussion or elaboration on different forest spirits in 2E WFRP and the Army Books. The focus is on Spites, which are minor spirits, Dryads and Tree Kin as well as Treemen. I think we can cross out Spite because she's not a minor spirit by any means, and Tree Kin/Treeman for obvious reasons.
In the books, there's a distinction made between Naiads, who are river spirits, and Dryads, who are forest spirits. Aside from that, there isn't much distinction between different types of Dryad, aside from them being able to assume different forms. This includes a disguised "innocent" form and a "Battle Form", and in older editions that included the ability for them to change their aspect from Oak to Willow to Ash to Birch, all of which had different effects.
I think it's fair to say that Cadaeth is a Forest Spirit more than a River Spirit, considering the domain she invited us to. She also strikes me as powerful/influential, as she is a Vicerine and part of the Council of Frost as well as the official ambassador. There's also the fact that she can create a pocket dimension in an area that isn't hers, which is impressive even if trees in general resonate with her.
That leads me to the conclusion that she is a "Branch Nymph". What is a Branch Nymph? Well, Dryads have three evolutions in the tabletop. The foot soldiers of which there are plenty are the Dryads. The Unit Champions of a unit of Dryads is a Branch Nymph. At the top of the food chain is the Branchwraith Hero Unit. Cadaeth might be a Branchwraith, but some part of me insists that that's not quite right. Not sure why. It's quite possible she's a Branchwraith instead of a Nymph, but I don't think we have enough info one way or the other.
Of course, all this could be pointless and it turns out I'm missing something/Boney's going in a different direction, but hey. That's what speculation's like.
No, that's super unlikely, except in the sense of "burried in the head of their Kragg equivalent", and then it's not really accessible to them either. But it's not institutional knowledge. If it was, it's very likely Teclis (or another elf) would've told the humans. Teclis I certainly don't see keeping it secret (though he might not share the details, possibly because of a lack of time). And arrogance certainly isn't going to stop them telling people they can do something better (in this case, making waystones). In fact, arrogance would compel them to do the very opposite.
But much more importantly, it would be a huge bargaining tool for their relationship with the Eonir. So at least they would know. Now, you could say the Eonir are unwilling to pay the price the high elves want for it. Maybe. But we would hear about it, because they not perfectly unified internally, and the icky human faction would certainly use it at some point. At which point the icky humans (and also the dwarfs) get very upset about something like that being kept secret. An the Eonir as a whole are aware that in a fight with very upset humans (never mind the upset dwarfs), they'll lose even if the humans don't win. That's why the rapprochement with Middenland happened.
And now, finding out they'd been hiding the Ulthuan possibility wouldn't be a casus belli itself, but it would swing things in Nordlands favor and could tip things, and it certainly would make any further politics more costly. Besides, telling their partners that Ulthuan has this knowledge works out way better for them. Because now they could get all of them on their side of the table for negotiations. Getting that bit of knowledge from the High Elves on their own may not be possible with compromising their independence more than they're willing to. But if the whole Old World, from Kiselv to Bretonnia, demands a vital tool for fighting Chaos? The price won't be nearly so high.
So no, there is no reason to believe the High Elves know, and good reason to believe they don't.
Waystones are very complicated very high energy things, I really doubt Teclis could have shoved that into the emergency 'here is how you make battle mages' lessons, or for that matter that he would even be allowed to do so. Such lore if it existed would be military secrets and at the time when he was teaching the Colleges Teclis was just a young up and comer.
As for Ulthuan using it as a bargaining chip with the Eonir, well I do not think Ulthuan really wants the Eonir back, some of them might but the court is all too aware that polities of elves answering to the Pheonix King in the old world might set off the dwarfs, even if not it is debatable if Ulthuan even has the resources to defend such far flung colonies.
The problem im seeing with this is that the high elves wouldn't see it as a military secret. It's useless for the military. The waystones need to be build waaaaaaay before military actions against chaos are even thought of, because they prevent war with chaos. The high elves are arrogant, yes. But if they knew how to build waystones they would plant these suckers in any even remotely friendly place they could find...
It is very much a military secret, it is a way to channel vast amounts of power into a location and then use it, as seen with the Aldorf College which is built around a minor Waystone. Consider that for a moment all that power, some of the most important magical infrastructure in the modern Empire is off a minor stone, and again it assumes they would have reason to believe humans are even capable of building waystones. Look at the Grey Lord we met a few updates ago, he admits he has seen humans build (cut rate) Waystones yet he still dismisses humans as useful to the project.
... And the high elves already have more magic through the vortex then they know what to do with. Also the rest of the world can't replicate (AFAIK, no idea if Cathay know or some random ass tribe or Albion) waystones even with working examples to study, not anymore at least. So why would the high elves care? Either others can't replicate them and it doesn't matter or others can and there are enough examples out there to study. Choose your poison...
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Cathay has the Dragon Emperor's Great Wu Xing Compass in his Celestial Court floating above Weijin. It's one of his biggest direct influences on the nation, as it allows him to draw and direct the Winds of Magic across Cathay. This includes reinforcing the Great Bastion, the Celestial Dragon River etc. but it generally involves him drawing the winds from one area and moving it to another. It's kind of a waystone? Obviously it requires the direct efforts of a godlike ancient dragon and it's clearly restricted to Cathay.