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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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For that it is worth I think it is unreasonable to assume that debt can or will ever be called in. We are talking about a legal and religious snarl in the Karaz Ankor. I think it will take decades at the earliest if not centuries to reach any sort of consensus.

We can pretty much pretend that debt does not exist.

As for books costs that is all out of Belegar's pocket, all grand ideals aside the library is a way to get Belegar to subsidize Mathilde's books buying habits now that she no longer works for him.
 
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[x] [DWARF] No purchase.
[X] [LIBRARY] Library of Mournings: name two non-magical topics to hire Cityborn scribes to copy all available Laurelorn books on.
-[X] Eonir of Laurelorn
-[X] Weaving Spider silk

We can backfill anytime, but right now better to take stuff that's immediately relevant.
 
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Andres110 said:
Oh my goodness why are we going yet another turn without runed pistols? There's no disadvantage to taking them. There's nothing better to hold out for.
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It's been a while since this last came up, but from what I remember, it's like this. For most, better guns are not a priority, either because they don't care for the topic or because they believe magic serves as a far better ranged weapon for Mathilde than guns, runed or no. For those that do consider them, the fact that runes for guns are rather meh (compared to crossbow runes) as well as the possibility of enchanting pistols ourselves (and the even further possibility of multi-wind enchantments) are reasons to stay away from purchasing runed guns. With that breakdown in mind, the disadvantages easily appear. Money is first and foremost. People might not be so enthused with spending it for something they don't care for, or for what they see as an inferior option.
 
Pempelune said:
We can backfill anytime, but right now better to take stuff that's immediately relevant.
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I'm going to be honest, I'm not sure how either of those topics are immediately relevant. Boney's mentioned that the Spider Silk will be converted to Textiles, and I'm not sure we need Eonir texts on the Eonir right now, seeing as we spent two actions integrating into their culture.

I mean, we don't even know where the bottleneck with the We silk even is, let alone if throwing a bunch of books on elven cloth making at Franseco will fix it.
 
NuclearConsensus said:
It's been a while since this last came up, but from what I remember, it's like this. For most, better guns are not a priority, either because they don't care for the topic or because they believe magic serves as a far better ranged weapon for Mathilde than guns, runed or no. For those that do consider them, the fact that runes for guns are rather meh (compared to crossbow runes) as well as the possibility of enchanting pistols ourselves (and the even further possibility of multi-wind enchantments) are reasons to stay away from purchasing runed guns. With that breakdown in mind, the disadvantages easily appear. Money is first and foremost. People might not be so enthused with spending it for something they don't care for, or for what they see as an inferior option.
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Pretty much this, I can't really see a use for them in the near or even the mid term so I would rather save on the gold which is a finite resource.
 
[X] [LIBRARY] Library of Mournings: name two non-magical topics to hire Cityborn scribes to copy all available Laurelorn books on.
-[X] Eonir of Laurelorn
-[X] Geography of Laurelorn

[X] PURCHASE] +1 Patron Gods of Laurelorn: Asuryan, Isha, Vaul, Hoeth, Hekarti. (250g)

[X] [PURCHASE] +1 Laurelorn books on Asuryan, Isha, Vaul, Hoeth, Hekarti, and Loec (300 gc)
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I'm going to be honest, I'm not sure how either of those topics are immediately relevant. Boney's mentioned that the Spider Silk will be converted to Textiles, and I'm not sure we need Eonir texts on the Eonir right now, seeing as we spent two actions integrating into their culture.

I mean, we don't even know where the bottleneck with the We silk even is, let alone if throwing a bunch of books on elven cloth making at Franseco will fix it.
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  1. We have the base level of understanding of the Eonir, the books will go into exotic and esoteric stuff
  2. Well they are certainly more likely to help than book on Ogres or Cathay, even a small chance of progress is better than none
 
I think the next time there's going to be an impetus to improve our gear is when it looks like we're heading into serious combat.

Our loadout is pretty damn good.
 
[X] [LIBRARY] Library of Mournings: name two non-magical topics to hire Cityborn scribes to copy all available Laurelorn books on.
-[X] Eonir of Laurelorn
-[X] Weaving Spider silk
 
[X] [LIBRARY] Library of Mournings: name two non-magical topics to hire Cityborn scribes to copy all available Laurelorn books on.
-[X] Eonir of Laurelorn
-[X] Weaving Spider silk

[X] [DWARF] Runed pistols
[X] [COLLEGE] No purchase.
[X] [PURCHASE] No purchase.
 
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DragonParadox said:
  1. We have the base level of understanding of the Eonir, the books will go into exotic and esoteric stuff
  2. Well they are certainly more likely to help than book on Ogres or Cathay, even a small chance of progress is better than none
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We'll pick up the esoteric Eonir culture over time anyway, we don't need to rush it now, and of course books on a unrelated topic wont help. What I'm questioning is why we need to waste a book slot on something we have decided not to get involved with.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
We'll pick up the esoteric Eonir culture over time anyway, we don't need to rush it now, and of course books on a unrelated topic wont help. What I'm questioning is why we need to waste a book slot on something we have decided not to get involved with.
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  1. Well yes, but if we get the books now we can use them soon which means the political actions we take next turn are more likely to succeed. That is ind of the entire point of a utility argument
  2. As for the silk, Mathilde has wanted those silk sheets for a long time and on a broader scale a more prosperous K8P is better for everyone from the Karaz Ankor to the empire to well us since we are buying books out of their budget, spending half of one turn's book acquisitions on it is hardly some great imposition
 
I thought it would be neat to go to the wiki to look for notable books. and I realised that there aren't many records. I can remember more books than the wiki has recorded. Most of the books are nasty grimoires and magical tomes that would be inappropriate, like the Liber Malefic, Liber Chaotis, Liber Mortis, Celestine Book of Divination, Book of Secrets and whatever. What I do remember:
Bimbo's Book of Sage Advice (A halfling book that I believe was written by Bimbo Baggins)
Halfling Cookbook (a treasured book for Ogre Slaughtermasters as it is the only remaining artifact from the Halfling Wars)
Testaments of Sigmar (A book containing a collection of memories from people who interacted with Sigmar, very important to the church, they don't let go of the text easily)
Deus Sigmar (Sigmarite holy text)
Lord Ulric and the Making of the World (The book that contains that legend about Ulric saving the world from Skaven)
History of the Old World (Hieronymus of Nuln made this for Karl Franz so it might not have been written yet)
Tome of Wisdom (Myrmidian holy text that the Necrarch Nourgul really wanted and started the Blood Wars in Estalia to get it. He was killed in the cathedral contianing the book)
Books of Blood (Khainite holy text. Nobody but the Khainites know the text, but they generally tend to carve scripture on the flesh of those they kill so you can maybe reverse engineer it. Not a corruptive book so to speak, just nasty)
Great Sacred Books of Mullah Aklan (A memoir of all of Mullah Aklan's knowledge and experience on war, history, government and religion)
The Doom that Came to Kavzar (A poem of 13 stanzas referencing the destruction of Tylos. Many different versions exist, but the most accurate and oldest might be a Dwarfen record written in Khazalid)
The Book of Green (Rhya and Taal Holy Book)
Teutognengeschichte (History of the Teutogens and Ulrican Holy Text)
The Flame Eternal (Elven Theology book)
Opuscules of Verena's Teachings (Verenan Holy Book)
Geistbuch and the book of Sigmar (Sigmarite Holy Books)
Songs of the Raven (Seems to be a list of Morrite songs/rhymes focusing on tragedy and lament. Also a holy text)
The Riddles Ten (Ranaldite Holy Text)
Testament of Pergunda (Shallyan Holy Text, Pergunda is a Venerated Soul I think. This book is the one that contains "The Greatest Trick", the one where the child says that the greatest trick is that Ranald fooled people into ever thinking he was human)
Of Sea and Man, Liber Manaan, Tales of the Albatross (Manaanite holy texts)
Book of Doorways (Morrite holy text)
Midnight and the Black Cat (Ranaldite Holy Text)
The Book of Sufferings (Shallyan holy text)
Rites of the Ancient Grove, Book of the Summer's Path (Rhya/Taal holy texts)
Liber Lupus and the Ulric Creed (Ulrican Holy Texts)
Vampires and thier Kin (A pretty good anti-vampire text made by a Raven Knight for the their order)
Perilous Beasts: A study of of creatures fair and foul (by Odric of Wurtbad. The book might not have been written yet and it does stretch SOD to have someone capable of writing it)
 
[X] [LIBRARY] Library of Mournings: name two non-magical topics to hire Cityborn scribes to copy all available Laurelorn books on.
-[X] Eonir of Laurelorn
-[X] Weaving Spider silk
 
kfrar said:
For less negligible gains, we could grow the EIC. It already gives us 175 crowns per turn, but if we set them up with Laurelorn trade contacts we could probably grow that number a non-negligible amount. That's not the only thing we could do for more EIC money, but we could probably use that to earn some more influence in Laurelorn somehow, so it seems like it might be worth working towards.
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We can do even better than that. We know Laurelorn (or at least one house) wants dwarf goods. The EIC is perfectly positioned to become the go between. That is alot of money. Only danger is we have a political runelord that might beat us to it.
 
[x] [LIBRARY] Back-fill.

The part on organisation was interesting, but ultimatly I think it was less important than other aspects of order.
A complete index and signature marks on every book are more important. If the catalogue is up to date and the people ordering the books back in their places are thorough, then any organisation can work (even sorting by date of purchase or something similarly horribly non-intuitve).

A good organisation helps a lot, I admit, particularly for visitors just looking for a general topic, whom you can direct to a specific shelf.
But a complete index with good organisation, best case for this age in a card catalogue, would be more important.

Because you can never hope to make a perfect organisation where every book can only be in one place, authors are simply not so nice to write their books on single topics congruent with the library's order. But when you have a good catalogue, particularly a thematic one and one going by authors (which I admit is a shitload of work to maintain) then you can look for the book in a single location, in the few places where it can reasonably be and then go to the right shelf without having to wander through the entire library several times, looking at different places where it might be according to the system.

Edit: Signatures are also your best bet for finding a missplaced book. It is unavoidable that books get missplaced at times, but if you have a little sign on the back that looks different from its neighbours the odds of seeing it's wrong there and putting it back in the right place are vastly higher than hoping to notice another book-back being wrong there by itself.

Edit 2: It seems like the earliest forms of card catalgues have been around since the 16th century, so not unrealistic for WH.
 
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DragonParadox said:
  1. Well yes, but if we get the books now we can use them soon which means the political actions we take next turn are more likely to succeed. That is ind of the entire point of a utility argument
  2. As for the silk, Mathilde has wanted those silk sheets for a long time and on a broader scale a more prosperous K8P is better for everyone from the Karaz Ankor to the empire to well us since we are buying books out of their budget, spending half of one turn's book acquisitions on it is hardly some great imposition
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Whilst it's true that a more prosperous Karak is better, I included "tradecraft" in my vote because that would include dwarven and imperial texts that would be of use and benefit to a broader section of the local economy. 4000 years worth of elven weaving texts is a much narrower focus, and there is no guarantee that elven knowledge on silk will translate to We silk—for a start, our spiders are a different species, and who knows how much magic the elves use in their process.

I just don't understand why people think the elves have some secret textile knowledge that will solve the silk problem.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Whilst it's true that a more prosperous Karak is better, I included "tradecraft" in my vote because that would include dwarven and imperial texts that would be of use and benefit to a broader section of the local economy. 4000 years worth of elven weaving texts is a much narrower focus, and there is no guarantee that elven knowledge on silk will translate to We silk—for a start, our spiders are a different species, and who knows how much magic the elves use in their process.

I just don't understand why people think the elves have some secret textile knowledge that will solve the silk problem.
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There is I think less chance that the notoriously conservative dwarf guilds will take any advice form an elf practice ever. At least We silk weaving is new and does not involve the guild so the information might actually be used.
 
DragonParadox said:
Oh I see. The trouble is that in that case dwarf books are unlikely to teach dwarf guilds much of worth so that leaves the chance of the humans learning something of note from a random assortment of books, many of which are in inapplicable topics like 'beastmen' or 'the Ogre Kingdoms'.
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Which is why I voted to add Medicine and Tradecraft texts to the library, so that the people living in K8P can learn that knowledge freely. Want to learn carpentry? Come down to the tradecraft section. Interested in blacksmithing? We have a bookcase full of it. (Also voted for religious texts, because our Divinity section has like 50 books on Ranald and a dozen each on Ulric and the Ancestor Gods and pretty much nothing else).

The Library of Kron-Azril-Ungol is for the people, and it's with that in mind that I want to build the collection for. Not to give Mathlide a +5 bonus when speaking to elves, and not to get silk sheets, but to create an institute of knowledge and learning that even the common human/dwarf/halfling can utilise.

That is my vision for the library, and I don't know, maybe I've misunderstood why we even built the thing. I'm just trying to build as broad a collection as possible, not hyperfocus on one very narrow topic in the hopes that it will solve a specific problem.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
SOCIAL SCIENCE
Daemons +4 - Extensive Imperial / Extensive Dwarven
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I think Daemons would fall under Divinity.

NuclearConsensus said:
It's been a while since this last came up, but from what I remember, it's like this. For most, better guns are not a priority, either because they don't care for the topic or because they believe magic serves as a far better ranged weapon for Mathilde than guns, runed or no. For those that do consider them, the fact that runes for guns are rather meh (compared to crossbow runes) as well as the possibility of enchanting pistols ourselves (and the even further possibility of multi-wind enchantments) are reasons to stay away from purchasing runed guns. With that breakdown in mind, the disadvantages easily appear. Money is first and foremost. People might not be so enthused with spending it for something they don't care for, or for what they see as an inferior option.
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There is no one in this thread who could believe magic is a perfect substitute for ranged weaponry, not after seeing Mathilde use her guns in lieu of magic so recently, in the Dum expedition. Similarly, there is no one who objects to runed guns on a monetary ground because that has no gold cost whatsoever: before the Dum expedition, it had only ever had a favour cost, and now it costs nothing. Finally, I cannot seriously believe the weakness of gun runes specifically when compared to crossbow runes has anything but negligible sway over people's minds, given how the AP cost of training with crossbows means we'll never get one.

I do see how the lure of enchanting our own guns could sway people though.

Codex said:
I thought it would be neat to go to the wiki to look for notable books. and I realised that there aren't many records. I can remember more books than the wiki has recorded. Most of the books are nasty grimoires and magical tomes that would be inappropriate, like the Liber Malefic, Liber Chaotis, Liber Mortis, Celestine Book of Divination, Book of Secrets and whatever. What I do remember:
Bimbo's Book of Sage Advice (A halfling book that I believe was written by Bimbo Baggins)
Halfling Cookbook (a treasured book for Ogre Slaughtermasters as it is the only remaining artifact from the Halfling Wars)
Testaments of Sigmar (A book containing a collection of memories from people who interacted with Sigmar, very important to the church, they don't let go of the text easily)
Deus Sigmar (Sigmarite holy text)
Lord Ulric and the Making of the World (The book that contains that legend about Ulric saving the world from Skaven)
History of the Old World (Hieronymus of Nuln made this for Karl Franz so it might not have been written yet)
Tome of Wisdom (Myrmidian holy text that the Necrarch Nourgul really wanted and started the Blood Wars in Estalia to get it. He was killed in the cathedral contianing the book)
Books of Blood (Khainite holy text. Nobody but the Khainites know the text, but they generally tend to carve scripture on the flesh of those they kill so you can maybe reverse engineer it. Not a corruptive book so to speak, just nasty)
Great Sacred Books of Mullah Aklan (A memoir of all of Mullah Aklan's knowledge and experience on war, history, government and religion)
The Doom that Came to Kavzar (A poem of 13 stanzas referencing the destruction of Tylos. Many different versions exist, but the most accurate and oldest might be a Dwarfen record written in Khazalid)
The Book of Green (Rhya and Taal Holy Book)
Teutognengeschichte (History of the Teutogens and Ulrican Holy Text)
The Flame Eternal (Elven Theology book)
Opuscules of Verena's Teachings (Verenan Holy Book)
Geistbuch and the book of Sigmar (Sigmarite Holy Books)
Songs of the Raven (Seems to be a list of Morrite songs/rhymes focusing on tragedy and lament. Also a holy text)
The Riddles Ten (Ranaldite Holy Text)
Testament of Pergunda (Shallyan Holy Text, Pergunda is a Venerated Soul I think. This book is the one that contains "The Greatest Trick", the one where the child says that the greatest trick is that Ranald fooled people into ever thinking he was human)
Of Sea and Man, Liber Manaan, Tales of the Albatross (Manaanite holy texts)
Book of Doorways (Morrite holy text)
Midnight and the Black Cat (Ranaldite Holy Text)
The Book of Sufferings (Shallyan holy text)
Rites of the Ancient Grove, Book of the Summer's Path (Rhya/Taal holy texts)
Liber Lupus and the Ulric Creed (Ulrican Holy Texts)
Vampires and thier Kin (A pretty good anti-vampire text made by a Raven Knight for the their order)
Perilous Beasts: A study of of creatures fair and foul (by Odric of Wurtbad. The book might not have been written yet and it does stretch SOD to have someone capable of writing it)
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There's also the various 2e books that are set in the universe, like the Old World Bestiary and the Tome of Salvation.
 
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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Which is why I voted to add Medicine and Tradecraft texts to the library, so that the people living in K8P can learn that knowledge freely. Want to learn carpentry? Come down to the tradecraft section. Interested in blacksmithing? We have a bookcase full of it. (Also voted for religious texts, because our Divinity section has like 50 books on Ranald and a dozen each on Ulric and the Ancestor Gods and pretty much nothing else).

The Library of Kron-Azril-Ungol is for the people, and it's with that in mind that I want to build the collection for. Not to give Mathlide a +5 bonus when speaking to elves, and not to get silk sheets, but to create an institute of knowledge and learning that even the common human/dwarf/halfling can utilise.

That is my vision for the library, and I don't know, maybe I've misunderstood why we even built the thing. I'm just trying to build as broad a collection as possible, not hyperfocus on one very narrow topic in the hopes that it will solve a specific problem.
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I think we build the place to get Belegar to pay for out books purchases and then to put all those purchases out for all the public near and far to enjoy and to add to. As a wizard we were going to get a massive library anyway so it made sense to use our dwarf contacts to make that library safely pubic for the betterment of both the hold and the world. I do not think we have a moral obligation to buy things just for public consumption, it is our reward for a job well done.
 
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