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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Derpmind said:
Just wanna expand on my argument for the Grimnir Gronti a bit more: Snorri is massively powerful in combat currently. He's extremely tough and can hammer his enemies with extremely power. But he can only be in one place at a time. No matter how much we buff him personally, he can only be fighting at one point in one battle at a time, and even then outside of major events he spends most of his time doing (important) runesmithing rather than fighting and defending others. A gronti solves this problem: It can fight tirelessly and be dedicated to fighting. A Grimnir Gronti like the one we could make might well match if not exceed Snorri's personal combat ability. To give the most benefit to the most dwarves in the upcoming war it is by far the best choice, simply because it can be where Snorri is not.

But on a thematic level, it's also the culmination of Snorri's art. He has spent centuries carefully studying Grontis. He just had a training montage from his Master. He has dedicated himself not to merely mastering his craft, but to creating lasting things to help others. As far as Snorri knows, this might be his one and only chance to create this idea. And on the eve of the first war without Grimnir's presence, what better gift could he give than Grimnir's visage, to remind them of honor and defend them from the upcoming chaos?

The currently leading plan feels inappropriate to me. As an attempt to complete Snorri's personal gear for a rune combo... what is it actually aiming for? To be as powerful as possible? To be maximally useful in combat? Barak Azamar was created not just as a set of armor, but as a way to solve Snorri's exhaustion problem when he pushes himself to greater heights of productivity. Zharrgal is not just a weapon to strike foes, but a tool to forge runic items and boost Snorri's craft. But this new cloak does nothing to help Snorri's personal advancement as a runesmith. It is only useful in combat. It feels like Snorri is grasping at personal power simply because it's here, rather than seeking to forge something to selflessly help others. It feels like trying to complete the combo for the completely wrong reasons, and I seriously don't like it because of that.

My point is that I (and many other voters) can't "put enough effort" into it. If I spent hours of effort today combing through the quest and trying to make a good rune combo, I wouldn't end up with something comparable to the plans from those who've spent much more time than that discussing and analyzing the quest's rune system. Even though I've been reading and participating in this quest since the second update. All i can do is vote for other people's rune plans, and failing that, vote for a plan that asks Snorri to figure out a rune combination on his own.
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We ran into arguments much like this against Barak Azamar, and I will respond to this the same way: the intent and desired use of an item of Snorri's personal equipment is just as valuable as what it actually does and how it does that. The point of Skarrenbakraz and the reason it has carvings of the Dwarves of Kraka Drakk going about their lives is much like the point behind Barak Azamar: to protect others. Barak Azamar was made as a promise that shows even in its name; to make Snorri an Eternal Bastion that won't die due to some nonsense so that he can do what drives him, protecting his people. The point of Skarrenbakraz, starting from the very runes put into it, with the Master Rune being a Defensive Rune is to increase his personal power and improve his kit so that he is better able to protect his people.

One of Snorri's highest goals, I think we can all agree, is to protect the dwarves and their staunch allies and to see beardlings happy with toys in their hands. That is one of the primary drives for him in any battle we go into. Barak Azamar is a statement in support of that, Zharrgal is a tool to channel Barak Azamar's energy more finely and directly and to release his will upon his craft, and Skarrenbakraz is supposed to be a tool to let him protect many people at once. Because you're right, he can't be in more than one place on the battlefield. But Skarrenbakraz is meant to allieviate part of that by creating a protective storm around Snorri and those within the expanse of its great reach, and to synergize with the Throng Storm as a whole to further protect the entire throng.

He does not need to be physically present in more than one place if his reach from one place extends to cover most of the Throng he marches with, when synergizing with the Brana Storm produced by the lesser Scions of the King of the Sky.

E: Further, my intent and hope is that once the Primordial World Set completes with Skarrenbakraz, we'll get a conclusion to the visions Snorri has seen and through Zharrgal which acts as an energy channel we will be able to harness the power of that set to greatly improve Zharrgal's craft enhancement magic.

Derpmind said:
The same thing can be said about making Snorri's Banner-Cloak. The storm is a bonus to it, nor a requirement; we can make it later after doing more research like investigating Kholek's Brain.

What's important to me is that it just isn't the same narrative if we make the Gronti at some later point in time, rather than here at the turn of history as the Dawi march to war. The story I want to read is one where Snorri makes the Grimnir Gronti here and now. Creating the cloak on this turn is attempting to gain the greatest mechanical bonus possible, but I'd much rather try to seize the moment of the story and how it fits IC with Snorri's actions and decisions up to this point.
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It's not. See above.

TheDuke said:
[X] [Letters:] Knowledge about this new Elf Colony
[X] [Specialty:] Productivity (Mastered+) > Productivity (Savant)
[X] [Specialty:] Odd and Esoteric Runes (Exceptional) > Odd and Esoteric Runes (Mastered)

[X] Plan We Have a Fulcrum, Let's Make a Lever

Got to say, the simplistic elegance of the cloak and combo appeals to me. Barak Azamar provides the energy, the cloak provides the fine control and energy conversion, and Zharrgal acts as the conduit and the extra oomph, nice and straightforward, even if you ignore the thematic implications and all that. Not to mention, honestly, it seems like it'd be the most effective counter we could make, in a situation like this? I mean, on this campaign we're going to be dealing with unprecedented, obscene quantities of magic inundating everything. Runesmiths might benefit a bit, but traditional spellcasters, which we'll probably see plenty of from the Fimir and Beastmen, are almost certainly going to end up being hugely empowered, if somewhat volatile. Rather then purely trying to suppress the Winds in a situation like this, it seems like going with the flow and borrowing from their powers, albeit in a much more controlled manner then a normal spellcaster, seems like the way to go. Redirect the torrent instead of trying to stop it altogether.

Not to mention, something like the cloak would probably be extremely synergistic with the Ur-Storm, or whatever we call that beast of a tempest the KoTS has hovering above the Throng whenever he joins the campaigns. We could channel and borrow the energy from the storm on top of Barak Azamar's energy to pull off some crazy shit, alongside probably acting as a ground controller and hopefully improving it's stability, which it's probably gonna reeeeaaaally need, when the Winds are storming like they will be this turn.
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There's also an element of Stupendous Amounts of Energy to be Used, but you are correct: It is to harness that massive wads of energy for the purposes of protecting any Throng he marches with.
 
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[X] [Letters:] Knowledge about this new Elf Colony
[X] [Specialty:] Productivity (Mastered+) > Productivity (Savant)
[X] [Specialty:] Odd and Esoteric Runes (Exceptional) > Odd and Esoteric Runes (Mastered)

[X] Plan Carnosaur > Troll
-[X] Render Aid: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Can be taken multiple times. Roll for usefulness, additional actions apply bonus to roll. Gain reputation and +2 bonus per action to Recruitment Dice. You formed these Hearthguard to combat all the ills that befall the dwarfen people. Send them out, render aid, earn goodwill and spread the word of your retainers and their stated mission beyond the borders of Kraka Drakk.
--[X] The Throng is Mustered: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Can be taken multiple times. Gain Bonus to Throng Rolls against Fimir, additional actions apply bonus to roll. Chance for Casualties/Fatalities. The King of Kraka Drakk calls the Throng to war, lend the might of your Retainers to his cause. You have no real clue as to how developed the Fimir presence is, but given the corpse Rudil dragged back you have a feeling they've been here a while. 1 Retainer Action.
--[X] Scouting: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Gain minor bonus to Waystone rolls. Can be taken multiple times. Roll for usefulness, additional actions apply bonus to roll. 1 Retainer Action.
--[X] Waywarding: [Cost: 1 action or retainer action] Gain bonus to Waystone rolls and update on status of Waystones. Can be taken multiple times. 1 Retainer Action.
-[X] [Difficult] Write In, Skarrenbakraz, Banner-Cloak Pt. 1: [Cost: 1 action] If a rune you want requires special ingredients that you don't have access to I will alert you. Apply optional Rune Ingredients here. A deep black-grey length of supple and iron tough Dragon Ogre Shaggoth hide, treated to get rid of that abominable static, and dyed a deep and familiar red like a sunset forms the basis for this long hooded cloak. The hide descends from three larger plates of Adamant, designed to fit to the back of a Dwarfen gorget and shoulder pauldrons so keenly their edges seem to blend together into a beautiful whole, and about its edges are donated Brana feathers that compliment the colors. Upon the plates are carved the stormy sky of the King of the Sky's domain and nestled within those glowering anvil clouds are three great Runes, with the Master Rune of Grungni taking pride of place on the middle plate. Atop the hide of the cloak and woven into it are Adamant scales the size of a thumb with various gems of Kraka Drakk as highlights, a testament to the workman's craftsmanship and sheer strength. Upon these scales are carved images of the people of Kraka Drakk, and as the cloak moves they seem to move as well as they go about their lives, and a trick of keen carving makes the cloak shimmer like it is sparking with lightning that highlights these dwarfs. 1 action pt 1, 3 Actions pt 2, Use Barak Azamar, Zharrgal, and the Anvil of the Earth.
--[X] Choose: Master Rune of Grungni (Oathgold), Rune of Lightning (Kholek's Brain), Rune of Fury (Sky King's Crest Feather)
-[X] ORDER: White Lion corpse
-[X] Kingly Expedite: Tier 4 Carnosaur Heart

This is nigh identical to BungieOni's plan, except that we are ordering a carnosaur heart instead of a troll heart. This is an important distinction to me.
 
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Talon TigerDino said:
[X] [Letters:] Knowledge about this new Elf Colony
[X] [Specialty:] Productivity (Mastered+) > Productivity (Savant)
[X] [Specialty:] Odd and Esoteric Runes (Exceptional) > Odd and Esoteric Runes (Mastered)

[X] Plan We Have a Fulcrum, Let's Make a Lever
-[X] Render Aid: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Can be taken multiple times. Roll for usefulness, additional actions apply bonus to roll. Gain reputation and +2 bonus per action to Recruitment Dice. You formed these Hearthguard to combat all the ills that befall the dwarfen people. Send them out, render aid, earn goodwill and spread the word of your retainers and their stated mission beyond the borders of Kraka Drakk.
--[X] The Throng is Mustered: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Can be taken multiple times. Gain Bonus to Throng Rolls against Fimir, additional actions apply bonus to roll. Chance for Casualties/Fatalities. The King of Kraka Drakk calls the Throng to war, lend the might of your Retainers to his cause. You have no real clue as to how developed the Fimir presence is, but given the corpse Rudil dragged back you have a feeling they've been here a while. 1 Retainer Action.
--[X] Scouting: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Gain minor bonus to Waystone rolls. Can be taken multiple times. Roll for usefulness, additional actions apply bonus to roll. 1 Retainer Action.
--[X] Waywarding: [Cost: 1 action or retainer action] Gain bonus to Waystone rolls and update on status of Waystones. Can be taken multiple times. 1 Retainer Action.
-[X] [Difficult] Write In, Skarrenbakraz, Banner-Cloak Pt. 1: [Cost: 1 action] If a rune you want requires special ingredients that you don't have access to I will alert you. Apply optional Rune Ingredients here. A deep black-grey length of supple and iron tough Dragon Ogre Shaggoth hide, treated to get rid of that abominable static, and dyed a deep and familiar red like a sunset forms the basis for this long hooded cloak. The hide descends from three larger plates of Adamant, designed to fit to the back of a Dwarfen gorget and shoulder pauldrons so keenly their edges seem to blend together into a beautiful whole, and about its edges are donated Brana feathers that compliment the colors. Upon the plates are carved the stormy sky of the King of the Sky's domain and nestled within those glowering anvil clouds are three great Runes, with the Master Rune of Grungni taking pride of place on the middle plate. Atop the hide of the cloak and woven into it are Adamant scales the size of a thumb with various gems of Kraka Drakk as highlights, a testament to the workman's craftsmanship and sheer strength. Upon these scales are carved images of the people of Kraka Drakk, and as the cloak moves they seem to move as well as they go about their lives, and a trick of keen carving makes the cloak shimmer like it is sparking with lightning that highlights these dwarfs. 1 action pt 1, 3 Actions pt 2, Use Barak Azamar, Zharrgal, and the Anvil of the Earth.
--[X] Choose: Master Rune of Grungni (Oathgold), Rune of Lightning (Kholek's Brain), Rune of Fury (Sky King's Crest Feather)
-[X] ORDER: White Lion corpse
-[X] Kingly Expedite: Tier 4 Carnosaur Heart

This is nigh identical to BungieOni's plan, except that we are ordering a carnosaur heart instead of a troll heart. This is an important distinction to me.
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Please do not use the same name, that will deeply confuse the tally. It is unfortunately not smart enough to make the distinction correctly. You'll also want to use Kingly Authority, not Expedite.

E: Actually, it seems I am partly mistaken and things seem mostly alright. Must have gotten improvements.
 
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[X] [Letters:] Knowledge about this new Elf Colony
[X] [Specialty:] Productivity (Mastered+) > Productivity (Savant)
[X] [Specialty:] Talismanic Runes > Talismanic Runes (Exceptional+)
 
[X] [Letters:] Knowledge about this new Elf Colony
[X] [Specialty:] Productivity (Mastered+) > Productivity (Savant)
[X] [Specialty:] Odd and Esoteric Runes (Exceptional) > Odd and Esoteric Runes (Mastered)
 
pucflek said:
Skaven are roughly -1700 IIRC and Rise of Skaven is a thing that will remain unchanging as per Soulcake info post on which events are set in stone. So they are not a thing here yet, but we met something remotely similar, at least in name. Was a cool bit.
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Could you post that again i can't seem to find that information.
 
Since people are complaining about not having a concrete plan for a hypothetical super gronti and then complaining that people are only making it in Grimnir's image to manipulate a cult(which I agree is bad in itself) how about this for an idea. Instead of making a Gronti solely to pay homage to one ancestor god how about we make it with the intent to pay homage to all the main ancestor gods? We do have slots for other equipment that we planned to fill out so we can just have those items each either carry runes belonging to said god or said item as a direct homage to them. Example a cloak/banner to represent Valya, a crown to represent Grungni, a hammer to represent Smednir. etc.

We can still have it's appearance based on Grimnir but for narrative purposes that's due to him being the warrior that wields the tools and weapons representing the other ancestors.

Basically a super gronti made with the intention to be a homage to the Ancestor Gods. Pretty simple idea that doesn't need to be complicated further. We wouldn't even need to hurry with getting the full equipment since a full adamant Gronti is already formidable in itself. What do people think of the idea?
 
Red Bovine said:
Since people are complaining about not having a concrete plan for a hypothetical super gronti and then complaining that people are only making it in Grimnir's image to manipulate a cult(which I agree is bad in itself) how about this for an idea. Instead of making a Gronti solely to pay homage to one ancestor god how about we make it with the intent to pay homage to all the main ancestor gods? We do have slots for other equipment that we planned to fill out so we can just have those items each either carry runes belonging to said god or said item as a direct homage to them. Example a cloak/banner to represent Valya, a crown to represent Grungni, a hammer to represent Smednir. etc.

We can still have it's appearance based on Grimnir but for narrative purposes that's due to him being the warrior that wields the tools and weapons representing the other ancestors.

Basically a super gronti made with the intention to be a homage to the Ancestor Gods. Pretty simple idea that doesn't need to be complicated further. We wouldn't even need to hurry with getting the full equipment since a full adamant Gronti is already formidable in itself. What do people think of the idea?
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Sure that works. If we're making a bipedal super gronti there's really no better way to make it look than Grimnir lol. The crown and banner were already there for the regalia write-in so just changing the aesthetics is minor. The two axes can just be swapped to an axe and a hammer. The real question is what we want the rune combos to be.

For the crown I've wanted to try brotherhood on it if we can get it to work for gronti so something like grungni/grimnir/brotherhood.
 
Chimeraguard said:
[X] [Specialty:] Productivity (Mastered+) > Productivity (Savant)
[X] [Specialty:] Odd and Esoteric Runes (Exceptional) > Odd and Esoteric Runes (Mastered)
[X] [Letters]: Knowledge about this new elf colony
[X] Plan We Have a Fulcrum, Let's Make a Magic Killer Amulet.

It's not going to win, but I absolutely cannot support using a regent that we haven't even studied for an important piece of work.

It just feels so... utterly wrong to do as a Dwarf.

And I can't say I really feel like making a Gronti either.
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We've done it before with Zarghal if I remember correctly.
 
JohnGaster1987 said:
We've done it before with Zarghal if I remember correctly.
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Close anyway. We'd made Adamant, and at least partly understood it, but Snorri had only educated guesses what it'd do in the Rune of Thungni where he used it. Kholek's brain is that but a bit more so, since we've researched his kin, but not his brain specifically.
 
I think i am the first person who said that a really, really good Grimnir Gronti could influence the trends of cult of Grimnir so that Slayer Oath as is in canon would never take place (something that is not yet thing in universe). As such, i entirely object to the word manipulation. I just want to invoke Grimnir as he was in impressive enough way so that dunderheads don't decide to inflict one of the most harmful oaths ever to be conceived off. Is that manipulation? I mean yeah. So is asking your friends if they want ice-cream. They did not think they needed ice-cream until you mentioned it.

All societal interaction is manipulation if you decide to be this stringent about it. Just build a goddamn impressive Gronti as an example and maybe the idiots won't decide to be idiots is imho as honorable goal as any if you ask me.

EDIT: Basically - Grimnir was a general and king before he was THE Slayer, and maybe we should work on something that would remind Dwarfs of such. The "Manipulation" here is that we try to inspire everyone to remember who Grimnir was, and not just his sacrifice. Strive to be better not to end.

I said that mythical quality is something that affects course of fate, so thats something that would definitely work. Make Karaz Ankor greater via reminder of what the Ancestor was, not just how he ended.
 
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Dark as Silver said:
It will take more than big statue to achieve significant theological change. No matter how expensive it is.
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We literally had this goddamn exact same debate first time i mentioned it and i refuse to repeat it. Read the description of what Mythical Artifact means and try to repeat this sentence to me again.

Sufficiently impressive statue that invokes Grimnir Himself is absolutely enough. Its right in the fucking description of the rank.
 
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pucflek said:
We literally had this goddamn exact same debate first time i mentioned it and i refuse to repeat it. Read the description of what Mythical Artifact means and try to repeat this sentence to me again.

Sufficiently impressive statue that invokes Grimnir Himself is absolutely enough. Its right in the fucking description of the rank.
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Your assuming it will be mythical. Building a giant statue does not mean that it will stop the theological debate occurring.
 
pucflek said:
We literally had this goddamn exact same debate first time i mentioned it and i refuse to repeat it. Read the description of what Mythical Artifact means and try to repeat this sentence to me again.

Sufficiently impressive statue that invokes Grimnir Himself is absolutely enough. Its right in the fucking description of the rank.
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I'm happy to not debate it.
However I just want it to be very clear to anyone who wasn't present then that your ridiculous belief that dwarfish opinion is so easily swayed by a statue in a suit of armour rather than dressed as a slayer is not thread consensus.
As before, Mythical doesn't mean an item is destined to change a civilisation, Gharl Marz has tonnes of cousins that weren't good enough to be the High Kings primary weapon and weren't given to Sigmar, it doesn't mean they aren't Mythical tier, it just means they haven't shaped a civilisation.
 
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Dark as Silver said:
A Bloodthirster Gromril Gronti would be a vanity project. Even if we stopped at troll/ogre sized it might be a one of a kind in the KA.
A normal sized Adamant skinned Gronti would be a vanity project.

People forget how fucking ridiculous this plan was.
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Going to heavily disagree here that an adamant Gronti would be a vanity project. I'd understand if people said that about a Bloodthirster sized one since it does seem like a bit much but something like just an Ogre sized one seems actually reasonable. Besides being indestructible something like that entirely made of Adamant would get a colossal boost in how effective it's runes are. On top of that people plan for the thing to be out fighting all the time.
Not to mention that freaking Morgrim did have an entire tank made out of pure Gromril so that makes that argument pretty odd in this case.
Dark as Silver said:
It will take more than big statue to achieve significant theological change. No matter how expensive it is.
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I actually agree here. People want to make a super gronti because it's fucking awesome. But making it with the idea that we would influence things like that for meta reasons kind of blegh in my opinion. People tend to be annoyed with that level of meta gaming influencing decisions.
 
Dark as Silver said:
I'm happy to not debate it.
However I just want it to be very clear to anyone who wasn't present then that your ridiculous belief that dwarfish opinion is so easily swayed by a statue in a suit of armour rather than dressed as a slayer is not thread consensus.
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I am entirely sure a silver armor will literally never change course of history. Oh wait. Was that Karak there before? I never would have noticed.

What do you mean it shaped the belief of one of the major fortresses and congregation of dwarfs. What do you mean it affected politics of the entire North. Its just a suit of armor wtf.

Calling the biggest fucking adamant Gronti that moves and invokes the image of Grimnir as a Living Ancestor that Fought on the same fucking battlefield during Incursion? Yeah... Sure. That will have no impact at all. We are talking about Orks here right. Because they are about the only race that isn't Chaos that would be like this.

To make sure, i did not say that this would 100% work, especially not in the way i pictured, i always said that was only a chance of it, but Legendary and Mythical artifacts literally have "Affect the fates of Nations" in their description. Thats what they do. By their mere existence.
 
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Red Bovine said:
People want to make a super gronti because it's fucking awesome.
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My opinion differs, but I respect this line of argumentation. You do what you think is cool.
However I do have to point out, the gronti vote is a bloodthirster sized one so your own argument agrees its a bit much. And although I didn't get into it, we could get 99% of the benefit of being pure Adamant with Adamant Plated.
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pucflek said:
I am entirely sure a silver armor will literally never change course of history. Oh wait. Was that Karak there before? I never would have noticed.

What do you mean it shaped the belief of one of the major fortresses and congregation of dwarfs. What do you mean it affected politics of the entire North. Its just a suit of armor wtf.
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See the two great things about your point, is
A) I have no idea if you meant BA which is the mythical and hasn't effected politics except for making Snorris deeds at Grom slightly more memorable, Stormwrath which is not mythical but was a sign of lasting alliance with the Brana, or something canon I haven't heard of. So clearly this item wasn't all that important to the north in the end.
and B) Troll Slayer was arguably more important than either of the first two because it cemented Otrek as king making it more important in shaping civilisation than a Mythical and a higher tier Legendary combined.

Items don't change the world, the deeds they enable do.
 
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