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And what is Morghur? Where did it come from, and why is it not the same sort of thing as other demons of the chaos gods?

I feel like giving it a different name does not solve the questions around it's behavior and origins.
Even assuming Morghur is somehow different from a daemon and isn't just a daemon that keeps possessing different Beastmen, I still don't see the connection you're trying to draw with a pre-Ancestor Dwarfen pantheon.
 
There was a printing of the Bible that listed Thou Shalt Commit Adultery as a commandment and described God as having a great ass. I could see the Sigmarites taking it that badly if there was an equivalent oopsie in a printing of the Deus Sigmar.
And which printing was that? So I can avoid all the heresy, of course. Not because that's objectively very funny.

[X] [LIBRARY] The Eonir of Laurelorn: Esoteric Dwarven (150 gc), Beastmen: Extensive Imperial, Extensive and Antiquarian Dwarven (300 gc), Waystones and Henges: Esoteric Imperial (150 gc and 4 CF)

I kinda wish we were going harder on Beastmen here and I'd have been willing to spend out of pocket on it (we still have a silly amount of money and I'd like to get started on that sooner than later). But maxing out our Waystones library is absolutely VITAL in my opinion. You only get one chance to make a first impression, and elves are hard to impress. I'm guessing we probably can't just buy books on Waystones from polities besides the Empire and Dwarves because that's Restricted and you need some kind of in to buy Restricted books. And I don't think the Ice Witches or Damsels like us enough for that to be a generic purchase option yet. Otherwise I'd be arguing for spending out of pocket to get books from Kislev and Bretonnia as well.

Seriously, we're going to be working with elves on a magic project researching waystones, as the project lead, for at least the foreseeable near-term future of this quest. We need as much of their respect as we can get to be effective as the project leader, and as mentioned elves are hard to impress. Both in general, and especially when it comes to magic. Investing in making the best first impression there that we can is well worth it IMO.
 
And what is Morghur? Where did it come from, and why is it not the same sort of thing as other demons of the chaos gods?

I feel like giving it a different name does not solve the questions around it's behavior and origins.

I mean why wouldn't he be? When talking about Dum there seems to be a lot of tap dancing around Occam's Razor. It seems to me simplest to assume that the dwarfs of Dum while not utterly fallen to chaos yet are getting there, they are making use of Chaos and Chaos will inevitably consume them. There will come a time when they try to use the Waystone to destroy or taint the very kin they tried to protect and there will come a time when they march from the Wastes under the accursed banners of the Four, one more kind of slave among the multitudes

It feels like even now we are looking for a happy ending, a way in which they are not inevitably damned but in the world we find ourselves it is far more reasonable to assume that they are so damned that good intentions will turn to ash and blood and that the precise mechanism by which they sought to bind a creature of chaos will remain unknown to all sane people.
 
I don't think anything known about Morghur would particularly point to a Dwarf origin.

He's first spotted in the year -1095 IC in modern Bretonnia, and he's spent his known lives fighting Wood Elves and Ariel in particular. I'm not aware of any example of him fighting Dwarfs.
 
I kinda wish we were going harder on Beastmen here and I'd have been willing to spend out of pocket on it (we still have a silly amount of money and I'd like to get started on that sooner than later).
Our money isn't that silly, and I think we can afford to wait a turn and see what our budgeting looks like -- we still don't know what we'll need for WEBMAT and what the Eonir will be making available to us in terms of resources.
I'm guessing we probably can't just buy books on Waystones from polities besides the Empire and Dwarves because that's Restricted and you need some kind of in to buy Restricted books. And I don't think the Ice Witches or Damsels like us enough for that to be a generic purchase option yet. Otherwise I'd be arguing for spending out of pocket to get books from Kislev and Bretonnia as well.
We can't get Waystone books from Bretonnia (no magical topics from Bretonnia, and no books up the rarity ladder of Obscure/Antiquarian/Esoteric at all), and we cannot buy books from Kislev because we don't read Kislevarin (well, we can, but they won't help -- this is the same reason we don't get books from Tilea or Estalia).
4. Tilean/Estalian, yes. Bretonnian and Arabyan, only common ones - regular/extensive. Of these, Mathilde could only understand Breton.
@BoneyM: Are Bretonnian books available to us for either The Eonir of Laurelorn or Waystones? My belief is no, because the former is pretty far away from Bretonnia and the latter is a magical topic, but I would be remiss in my self-appointed duty as Library Guy if I didn't check.
No and no, for the reasons you gave.
Whether Laurelorn has books we can buy and then keep is an open question, but I do look forward to reading at their library.

Apropos of nothing, I've updated the Summary of Our Time As Loremaster for what I think will be the final time to incorporate the results of this social turn. Let me know if there's anything that needs changing, but I think that thread resource is complete.
 
I don't think anything known about Morghur would particularly point to a Dwarf origin.

He's first spotted in the year -1095 IC in modern Bretonnia, and he's spent his known lives fighting Wood Elves and Ariel in particular. I'm not aware of any example of him fighting Dwarfs.
So it endlessly fights elves in one of their most well-defended strongholds, and as far as you know it's never attacked Dwarves.
And this is meant to be evidence that it isn't a radical Dwarf superweapon?
 
So it endlessly fights elves in one of their most well-defended strongholds, and as far as you know it's never attacked Dwarves.
And this is meant to be evidence that it isn't a radical Dwarf superweapon?

Well for one thing it only fights one particular sort of elf, also it is kind of messing with the Oak of Ages and making the world markedly more chaotic in the process. If it is a dwarf weapon it is the worst one they have ever made.
 
Our money isn't that silly, and I think we can afford to wait a turn and see what our budgeting looks like -- we still don't know what we'll need for WEBMAT and what the Eonir will be making available to us in terms of resources.
It's not critical, I'm just antsy.
We can't get Waystone books from Bretonnia (no magical topics from Bretonnia, and no books up the rarity ladder of Obscure/Antiquarian/Esoteric at all), and we cannot buy books from Kislev because we don't read Kislevarin (well, we can, but they won't help -- this is the same reason we don't get books from Tilea or Estalia).
Oh, derp. That makes sense. Is it confirmed whether we can get magical topics from Kislev if/when (considering we took the polyglot trait, "when" is probably the most realistic) we learn to read Kislevarin, though?
 
If the Old Ones didn't put in the metaphorical stone nature, I'm curious where it came from. If it started socially then the Dwarven culture is to blame for needing the Rites of Valaya in the first place.
I agree the Old Ones made the metaphorical connection deliberately, sorry if my phrasing was unclear. However I think that they in there to give dwarves their magic resistance not to make them slowly turn to stone, which is why I said that forcing them to live underground was an unintended consequence.
This is an example of why the dwarves where a failed experiment and they moved onto the next species.
 
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[X] [LIBRARY] The Eonir of Laurelorn: Esoteric Dwarven (150 gc), Geography: Extensive Imperial (100gc), Beastmen: Extensive Imperial, Extensive and Esoteric Dwarven (350 gc)
 
So it endlessly fights elves in one of their most well-defended strongholds, and as far as you know it's never attacked Dwarves.
And this is meant to be evidence that it isn't a radical Dwarf superweapon?
I mean, the theory is that he's an abandoned Dwarf God, I would assume if that were the case he'd be as bitter against the Dwarfs as anything.
 
If the Old Ones didn't put in the metaphorical stone nature, I'm curious where it came from. If it started socially then the Dwarven culture is to blame for needing the Rites of Valaya in the first place.
Imo, they did put the metaphorical nature of stone in place, as the origin of their magic resistance.
They just didn't realize the winds after the collapse of the polar gates would strip the metaphor away.

The old ones added stubbornness, spite and everything stone in their vat before dropping the Chemical X in, which created the dwarfs.
But upon realizing that they wouldn't be able to fight Chaos due to their flaw, they stated them for obsolescence.

Valaya found out, and learned/discovered the technology that would preserve them even in face of the winds. And when that happened, Grugni led a breakout from the facility Zl, and Grimnir killed the guardian (Urmskaladrak) during the exodus to Zorn.
 
I mean, the theory is that he's an abandoned Dwarf God, I would assume if that were the case he'd be as bitter against the Dwarfs as anything.
Imagine for a second that the Empire abandoned Mathilde. Like, straight up declared her a Black Magister for no reason and would immediately put her on a pyre if they ever caught her.

Would that make Mathilde take up arms against the Empire? Would it make her attack the forces of destruction with any less vigour?
 
And my first vote in this quest goes...

[x] [LIBRARY] The Eonir of Laurelorn: Esoteric Dwarven (150 gc), Beastmen: Extensive Imperial, Extensive and Antiquarian Dwarven (300 gc), Waystones and Henges: Esoteric Imperial (150 gc and 4 CF)
[x] [DWARF] No purchase.
[x] [PURCHASE] No purchase
 
Imagine for a second that the Empire abandoned Mathilde. Like, straight up declared her a Black Magister for no reason and would immediately put her on a pyre if they ever caught her.

Would that make Mathilde take up arms against the Empire? Would it make her attack the forces of destruction with any less vigour?
Not everyone has Mathilde's sterling moral character.

The setting isn't exactly bereft of people who feel betrayed taking it out on society at large.
 
We can't get Waystone books from Bretonnia (no magical topics from Bretonnia, and no books up the rarity ladder of Obscure/Antiquarian/Esoteric at all), and we cannot buy books from Kislev because we don't read Kislevarin (well, we can, but they won't help -- this is the same reason we don't get books from Tilea or Estalia).
BoneyM, If it isn't built into the action already would it be possible when trying to reach out for Bretonnian and Kislevite assistance, for to Mathilde to try and diplomatically offer to pay for copies of some of their refrence materials on Waystones to be made? Kept under the supervision of the researchers from those nations, if need be.

Or later after we recruit these people, ask them directly if they think that copies of some books from their homeland might be allowed and helpful?

(It occours to me that I might be asking about something below our level of abstraction, in which case nevermind :) )
 
Not everyone has Mathilde's sterling moral character.

The setting isn't exactly bereft of people who feel betrayed taking it out on society at large.
Also, she might stop fighting against the forces of destruction if they didn't turn up until... checks notes ...three and a half thousand years after she'd been abandoned and she had no personal motivation to fight them.
 
[X] [LIBRARY] The Eonir of Laurelorn: Esoteric Dwarven (150 gc), Geography: Extensive Imperial (100gc), Beastmen: Extensive Imperial, Extensive and Esoteric Dwarven (350 gc)

We cannot afford to spend CF frivolously.

[X] [DWARF] No purchase.
[X] [COLLEGE] No purchase.
[X] [PURCHASE] No purchase.
 
Morghur is Morghur tbh. He is not the only absolutely bonkers entity Beastmen have (MOOOOONCLAAAAAAAW!!!). I doubt he is in any way truly connected to Dwarfs, and he did not even used to be connected to Athel Loren until he saw Ariel, whose divine essence he craves like i do midnight kebab on a drinking night.

He is almost certainly not any sort of Daemon that anyone has ever met, although odds of him being some sort of warp entity are significant.
 
Book Accessibility
Book buying limits. (will try and update as we go)

Imperial: general
Imperial Mundane: Common to Esoteric (college connections with the imperial university, booksellers of Barak Varr)
Imperial Guarded (guild interested, limited copies): Common to Obscure (imperial university)
Imperial Secret (Guild protected): common to Extensive (imperial university)

Imperial: Need correct connections to gain even basic access:
Imperial Engineering: Common to Esoteric (gold college connections)
Imperial Magical: Common to Esoteric (Colleges of magic)
Imperial Divine: Common to Extensive (access will vary with each cult.) (Imperial Verena books: There is a potential deal on the table for a while now.)

Dwarf: General
Dwarf Mundane: Common to Esoteric (Mathilde, booksellers of Barak Varr)
Dwarf Guarded (guild protected, limited copies): Common to Esoteric (Mathilde)
Dwarf Secrets (example: Guild protected): fuck off (dwarf will be dwarfs)

Dwarf: Need correct connections to gain even basic access
Dwarf Magical: Common to Esoteric (Mathilde)
Dwarf Runelore: fuck off (runesmiths will be runesmiths) (potential for Common? if Mathilde takes some serious oaths.)
Dwarf Divine lore Gazul: ??? (Gunners is willing to teach us if you take the right oaths.)

Bretonnian: general
Bretonnian Mundane: Common to Extensive (the imperial university, booksellers of Barak Varr)
Bretonnian Guarded: Common to Extensive (the imperial university, booksellers of Barak Varr)

Kislav: (Language locked)

Tilean/Estalian (Language locked)

Arabyan (Language locked)

High elve: general
High elf mundane: Common (currently locked: tensions with Marienburg)
 
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Book buying limits. (will try and update as we go)

Dwarf Secrets (example: Guild protected): fuck off (dwarf will be dwarfs)

Dwarf: Need correct connections to gain even basic access
Dwarf Magical: Common to Esoteric (Mathilde)
Dwarf Runelore: fuck off (runesmiths will be runesmiths) (potential for Common? if Mathilde takes some serious oaths.)
Just want to mention that Dwarfs never write their secrets in books. It's only through instruction and word of mouth that they pass on secrets, and we already got a few of those from Dwarfs who trust us, even if they aren't exactly guild secrets.

If we swear certain oaths we can even start pulling out super deep soul lore secrets from Gunnars but people don't want to swear those oaths.
 
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