Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Sir_Travelsalot · Mar 23, 2021

Briefvoice said:
Sure wish people had known that when we were voting on which job to take.

Also, since it's true and you've made a good case it's true, why in the world do people want to help Kislev because Boris made one good speech over helping the Empire or Karaz Ankor? You'd rather help this group of strangers than the people that Mathilde has sworn herself to helping? Fuck Kislev, this is a great reason to prioritize the people we care about instead.

Kislev can go screw off. This only confirms by "anyone, but anyone but Kislev" stance.

Did you miss the part where Kislev has borne the brunt of the overwhelming majority of Chaos invasions in the thousand or so years that Kislev has existed? It is not an exaggeration when people call Kislev the Old World's shield against Chaos. What helps Kislev will help the rest of the world by virtue of not having to deal with the constant Chaos invasions and raids that Kislev has fought off for every year of their entire history.

Jyn Ryvia · Mar 23, 2021

I honestly don't see any of the powers or groups involved not handing the results of a successful project (whatever that means) to Kislev, just becue of the role they play against chaos.

the groups at real risk of being left out are: in order of most likely to not get anything to probably get something.

1: abbry
2 tilea and estalia
3: high elfs (both the dwarfs and wood elves, the keystones to the project, don't like them.)
4: bretonnia

even in character, they are expecting to get the short end if they aren't running it.

"Good intentions have a way of fading with distance," Schermilde replies, her smile a little strained. "Do think it over."

if you want as many to benefit as possible, bring the knights into the clubhouse.

Prime 2.0 · Mar 23, 2021

...

I had a thought.

Much ado has been said of the idea that we don't need money as much as expertise - or hell, just don't need much money at all in excess of what anyone on the table can provide, 'so why care about kislev's gold' and all that jazz.

Except.

Except.

BoneyM said:
"The Verdan Ithil was once more than a few well-guarded glades. You could once find groves of the two varieties of lornalim throughout the entirety of Laurelorn and beyond, before the men of Nordland discovered their names were quite literal. They learned that if they see veins of silver or gold in the trees, they will find the same if they dig down."

You watch as a second wisp of Ulgu is greedily drunk by the tree. "They're natural Waystones."

"Yes, for a certain definition of 'natural'. Tributaries to the leyline-streams. But quite dependent on the metals they take their name from, and given a choice between material wealth and the continued existence of life on this world, your kind has a distressing tendency to choose wealth."

We literally have a waystone accessory right there whose main ingredient is "lots of gold and silver".

Kislev is choosing the continued existence of life on this world over wealth explicitly. Turns out, that matters a hell of a lot more than people have been giving credit for.

Briefvoice · Mar 23, 2021

So if this choice comes down to "who to help" then I think there's several points:

1. Who needs help the most?

2. Who do we owe the most?

3. Who does Mathilde personally benefit from helping the most?

1. Needs help the most = Kislev/Karaz Ankor about the same, followed by the Empire, followed by Laurelorn, with Carcassonne coming up last.

2. Owe the most = Karaz Ankor/Empire, followed by Laurelorn (based on the College of Magics elven heritage and their role in making the waystones to begin with), followed by Kislev, with Carcassonne coming up last.

3. Mathilde benefits the most = Laurelorn (magical knowledge), followed by the Empire (prestige), followed by Kislev/Carcassonne (magical knowledge/prestige), followed by Karaz Ankor (I love 'em, but Mathilde doesn't have much higher to go in prestige and she won't benefit nearly as much from runesmith magical knowledge).

Derpmind · Mar 23, 2021

Briefvoice said:
Sure wish people had known that when we were voting on which job to take.

Also, since it's true and you've made a good case it's true, why in the world do people want to help Kislev because Boris made one good speech over helping the Empire or Karaz Ankor? You'd rather help this group of strangers than the people that Mathilde has sworn herself to helping? Fuck Kislev, this is a great reason to prioritize the people we care about instead.

Kislev can go screw off. This only confirms my "anyone, but anyone but Kislev" stance.

I really wouldn't criticize people for their compassion. It's not wrong to feel sympathy here, and it's not wrong to feel sympathy for fictional characters in general. Much as I'm an advocate for choosing based on logical arguments, I won't ever repudiate someone for voting by their feelings and/or personal preferences. At the end of the day it's just a story, and people's enjoyment of that story is more important than making 'optimal' choices.

HanChenYou · Mar 23, 2021

Major groups at least marginally on board if:

[]Altdorf: Reikland, Colleges, Laurelorn, K8P

[]Kislev: Colleges, Laurelorn, K8P, Elf colony near Kislev, Ice Witches, nearby dwarven Karaks. (Note: If there are any runesmiths or rune lords in Karak Vlag, that might be our best bet for how to get one willing to spill real secrets to help out.)

[]Carcassonne: Colleges, Laurelorn, Damsels, Lady, K8P,

[]K8P: Colleges, Laurelorn, K8P

[]Laurelorn: Colleges, Laurelorn, K8P

It seems to me that there are 3 groups that care enough about this project and/or trust us enough that they will be involved no matter what.

We have a chance to either buy someone else in, or increase the commitment of one of those three.

I am partial to Kislev, but I will likely vote for both Kislev and Carcassonne

Nerdasaurus Rex · Mar 23, 2021

Briefvoice said:
1. Needs help the most = Kislev/Karaz Ankor about the same, followed by the Empire, followed by Laurelorn, with Carcassonne coming up last.

I'd swap Empire and Laurelorn around, personally. The Empire is in a fairly stable position right now, whilst Laurelorn is caught between beastmen and Nordland and the magical trees they are dependent upon are in danger. Karaz Ankor probably also doesn't need as much help as it did before Vlag and K8P came online, but it's still higher on the list than the others because they haven't stabilised yet.

Briefvoice · Mar 23, 2021

HanChenYou said:
[]Kislev: Colleges, Laurelorn, K8P, Elf colony near Kislev, Ice Witches, nearby dwarven Karaks. (Note: If there are any runesmiths or rune lords in Karak Vlag, that might be our best bet for how to get one willing to spill real secrets to help out.)

[]Carcassonne: Colleges, Laurelorn, Damsels, Lady, K8P,

It seems to me that there are 3 groups that care enough about this project and/or trust us enough that they will be involved no matter what.

We have a chance to either buy someone else in, or increase the commitment of one of those three.

I am partial to Kislev, but I will likely vote for both Kislev and Carcassonne

I'm pointed this out a bunch of times and never gotten a response, but I think Kislev and Carcassonne are quite different in regards to "buy in" from other magical groups.

At Carcassone we got an explicit promise on behalf of the Fey Enchantress that she will help and provide at least one of her Ladies as major support.

At Kislev we got the Crown Prince claiming that he is going to bully the witches into cooperation whatever their feelings on the matter.

Those do not strike me as the same thing!

Prime 2.0 · Mar 23, 2021

Briefvoice said:
At Kislev we got the Crown Prince claiming that he is going to bully the witches into cooperation whatever their feelings on the matter.

And also that he'd acquiesce to their requests for him to marry one of them, which would presumably involve a contract obligating them to help. Also, I'm pretty sure the ice witches would be on board with screwing over chaos without much poking in the first place. Also, they have a positive working relationship with Mathilde already.

Seems reasonably certain to me.

SpaceSloth · Mar 23, 2021

picklepikkl said:
I cannot find any mention in QM posts of slavery in Kislev. As far as I can tell, Boney has been silent on this topic. But if it's well-established in standard lore per the chart of canonicity, then we should assume it exists. If it's not well-established, though, we shouldn't run away with this topic.

The wiki article about Erengrad mentions Norscans trading slaves, but it cites second edition Realm of the Ice Queen and the only thing I can find in there that it is favourite port for pirates because they don't have to pretend to be legitimate merchants.

Nerdasaurus Rex · Mar 23, 2021

Briefvoice said:
I'm pointed this out a bunch of times and never gotten a response, but I think Kislev and Carcassonne are quite different in regards to "buy in" from other magical groups.

At Carcassone we got an explicit promise on behalf of the Fey Enchantress that she will help and provide at least one of her Ladies as major support.

At Kislev we got the Crown Prince claiming that he is going to bully the witches into cooperation whatever their feelings on the matter.

Those do not strike me as the same thing!

The ice witches like Boris—well enough that they are considering marrying one of their own to him—and to be honest, I don't think he's actually capable of bullying either the hags or the ice witches. I interpreted him as exaggerating for dramatic effect. If the witches don't want to help us, then no amount of yelling from a man—no matter how shiny his hat—will change their mind.

He'll probably have to do a lot of favour trading, and maybe even end up in their debt, to see it through though.

Shard · Mar 23, 2021

I would like Laurelorn to stop being screwed over for their crime of being nice. What's protecting them from Nordland getting uppity again and wanting to chop down all their gold and silver trees for quick bucks? They've been at the end of the line for awhile now, and in large part because of humans being assholes to them. And of course being unwilling or unable to fry all of them with giant magical explosions.

Rakuhn · Mar 23, 2021

Honestly, if we were working under (not horribly misandrist) ice witches instead of Boris, I'd probably vote for Kislev.

I just can't countenance working with someone who is going to needlessly antagonize our potential working partners. If he is willing to threaten the expulsion of a racial minority in his country to force their compliance, do you really think that he won't antagonize any visiting dwarf runemasters or elven mages? He talks only of force and coercion of those weaker than him, rather than how to inspire or compensate people for their help. He is a massive liability to our project, and I want nothing to do with him.

SpaceSloth · Mar 23, 2021

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
The ice witches like Boris—well enough that they are considering marrying one of their own to him

Eh, this sounded to me more like they are always trying to get Ice with to marry Tzar in hopes of controlling tzar or that their descendant would be Ice witch.

BoneyM said:
The layout is greatly confusing, partly because of the countless times it has been expanded over the years but mostly because the Ice Witches are always quite insistent on marrying into the Tzar's family, and every few generations this produces a throwback to the Khan-Queen that raises a new wing to the palace from ice that inevitably melts after her death. Impractical, perhaps, but it's the sort of thing that definitely leaves an impression.

SolBlazer13 · Mar 23, 2021

I want a neutral party between the elves and dwarves. I don't like the restrictions in the Empire. I think Kislev is too unstable and I don't like how heavy handed the diplomacy is. Guess I'm going with pragmatic knights.

Briefvoice · Mar 23, 2021

Prime 2.0 said:
And also that he'd acquiesce to their requests for him to marry one of them, which would presumably involve a contract obligating them to help. Also, I'm pretty sure the ice witches would be on board with screwing over chaos without much poking in the first place. Also, they have a positive working relationship with Mathilde already.

Seems reasonably certain to me.

Now keep in mind that I was specifically comparing the various options. I put Kislev on the same level as Karaz Ankor; the temporal leader will do his best to get cooperation from the Witches/Runesmiths, but ultimately how much they help will be a matter of negotiation. I'd put it like this.

Tiers of Promises of Magical Help

Top Tier - Carcassonne. Direct promise from the Fey Enchantress.

Mid Tier - Grey College, Laurelorn. Promises from people very high up in the magical hierarchy, but who can't just order everyone else in their magical group around. Still, they have a lot of "juice" and substantial cooperation is guaranteed.

Low Tier - Karak Eight Peaks, Kislev. The non-magical leader is on board and will do their best with influence, but we did not get any promises from the magical leaders themselves. (Though Mathilde has more leverage with the runesmiths on a personal level.)

Angelform · Mar 23, 2021

Sir_Travelsalot said:
Kislev gets attacked by enterprising Chaos Lords at least once a generation, with raids by Kurgan and Norscan marauders being a perennial affair, if not annual. The Great War Against Chaos was the first time in Kislev's some thousand years of existence as a distinct polity that the Chaos invasion stood a real chance of breaking through to the rest of the Old World, so they called for help.

That really doesn't answer my question. If Kislev's grievance is 'being ignored' then what would 'not being ignored' look like? When they called for help, help came.

Also it should be noted that the entire Old World is under constant attack by Beastmen, Greenskins, Skaven, Undead, Chaos cults, Druchii raiders, Bandits or some combination of the above. Kislev is only under significantly greater threat on the rare occasions that the inhabitants of the Chaos Wastes get their act together enough unify and head south on-mass. Something that happens somewhat less often than the Greenskins of the Badlands uniting to waaagh north.

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I wasn't trying to be funny. That's my honest perspective on the situation.

And my honest opinion is that the way you presented it was very entertaining. I have an appreciation for people stating their opinions in an inspirational and emotional manner, regardless of whether I agree with said opinions.
The reaction system isn't granular enough to express any meaningful degree of nuance, hence why I replied rather than rated.

primemountain · Mar 23, 2021

Briefvoice said:
Now keep in mind that I was specifically comparing the various options. I put Kislev on the same level as Karaz Ankor; the temporal leader will do his best to get cooperation from the Witches/Runesmiths, but ultimately how much they help will be a matter of negotiation. I'd put it like this.

Tiers of Promises of Magical Help

Top Tier - Carcassonne. Direct promise from the Fey Enchantress.

Mid Tier - Grey College, Laurelorn. Promises from people very high up in the magical hierarchy, but who can't just order everyone else in their magical group around. Still, they have a lot of "juice" and substantial cooperation is guaranteed.

Low Tier - Karak Eight Peaks, Kislev. The non-magical leader is on board and will do their best with influence, but we did not get any promises from the magical leaders themselves. (Though Mathilde has more leverage with the runesmiths on a personal level.)

Point of order: We were told the Waystones in Kislev shine White during heavy snow-storms and know the Ice Witches monitor and maintain their Waystones, and draw powers from the Land. The Widow is their God. The Land God. I'm gonna say there's a reasonable chance that in trying to fix Waystones in Kislev, you'll get more than Witches, you'll get the personal assistance of the Winter God of the Widow, because you're essentially trying to heal her wounds. That's divine assistance much more direct and involved than the Fey Enchantress.

If anyone wants to study divine magic on the side, Kislev is the way to go.

Nerdasaurus Rex · Mar 23, 2021

BoneyM said:
"And everyone comes running with promises. Well, here is Kislev's promise. You say there might be ways to push back Dewastacja? Restore Praag? Push back Troll Country? I say: to make this happen, all of Kislev will move mountains. You need gold? Kislev has gold. You need Ice Witch? They want make friends with me after father ignores them, they want me to take Ice Witch wife, I can make them cooperate. The Hag Witches? The kossars know they are mine, you can have Hag Witches. Ursun knows me, His priests will cooperate. If Elves in Erengrad want to stay in Erengrad, they must help. There is nothing I would not make happen if it means more Kislev and less Za. Do you understand?"

The only people Boris actually threatens are the elves. "If Elves in Erengrad want to stay in Erengrad, they must help." That's pretty clear cut. Help me fight chaos, or I'll evict you. Not pretty, but the ice witch who joined us complained about the merchants in Erengrad getting too big for their boots, so there might be some underlying tensions here already.

Ice witches: "They want make friends with me... want me to take Ice Witch wife, I can make them cooperate." He's talking about an alliance.

Hag witches: "The kossars know they are mine" He's a feudal lord in a feudal kingdom, of course he expects his people to follow him. Especially in a fight against an ancestral enemy.

Bear priests: "Ursun knows me, His priests will cooperate." What, is he going to bully a god now? I don't know what relationship he has with his god, but yelling at that gods priests isn't going to end well for him, and I'm sure he knows that.

Look at it from his perspective: someone has just told him about a new weapon against chaos. Anyone who tries to interfere with this weapon is, in his eyes, a threat to Kislev and a tool of chaos. And he wouldn't be completely wrong either.

Angelform said:
And my honest opinion is that the way you presented it was very entertaining. I have an appreciation for people stating their opinions in an inspirational and emotional manner, regardless of whether I agree with said opinions.
The reaction system isn't granular enough to express any meaningful degree of nuance, hence why I replied rather than rated.

In that case, I apologize. I interpreted your comment as both an insult and a belittling of my argument, which I now see was incorrect.

Prime 2.0 · Mar 23, 2021

[X] Kislev
[X] Laurelorn

Ganurath · Mar 23, 2021

Briefvoice said:
2. Owe the most = Karaz Ankor/Empire, followed by Laurelorn (based on the College of Magics elven heritage and their role in making the waystones to begin with), followed by Kislev, with Carcassonne coming up last.

We owe the Eonir for the Colleges and Waystones exactly as much as we owe the Asrai and Druchii, and for the same reasons.

[X] Kislev

T_of_A · Mar 23, 2021

[X] Kislev

DragonParadox · Mar 23, 2021

[X] Laurelorn
[X] Carcassonne
[X] Kislev

Does this make my tastes very broad or very indecisive? You decide.

More seriously I will probably approval vote K8P if the Grey Order looks like it might win because I really don't want to deal with the restrictions of the articles, but otherwise all these look great.

FriedIce · Mar 23, 2021

Moratorium is over. Time to vote!

[X] The Grey College
[X] Karak Eight Peaks
[X] Laurelorn
[X] Carcassonne
[X] Kislev

I'm happy with all the options.

Alucard Bellsing · Mar 23, 2021

[X] Laurelorn
[X] Carcassonne
[X] Kislev

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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