Sir_Travelsalot
Never wakes up tired.
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There is a slave trade in Kislev, but my understanding was that it was practically non-existent outside of Erengrad.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
very true.
Kislav is a place of hard basterds
they have reasons to be, and they are the shield of the world.
but they are also a place of slavery and secret police and middle/upper/lower class purges.
they are fanstry per-industrial eastern Europe, and that includes the bad parts.
now, the same can be said of the empire and Knightland, so Mathy cant really throw shade on a lot of the stuff they do.
but slavery is a sticking point I imagine
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- Outside the Box
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That's, uh, that's really not good. I would extremely prefer for the topic of slavery to not be used as a cudgel (by anyone) during voting, especially since so far it hasn't even come up as a topic. So if there isn't a clear statement from BoneyM, I'm going to assume Kislev slavery either doesn't exist or isn't something Mathilde is going to encounter.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Well for what it's worth BoneyM has certainly insinuated that Slavery exists in Kislev, we didn't run into it prior during the expedition because of how late we arrived and the duties we had at the time. I expect that Mathilde will run into it if she's inside kislev for multiple years.
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ehhhh no: its a very very big part of their lore, its hard to remove it.
I just forget sometimes what's common knowledge in the thread is not whats common knowledge with warhammer fans. otherwise I would have brought it up before.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
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- She/Her
Not particularly relevant to the issue at hand, but Kislev isn't the only order faction that employs slavery. Araby does too.
I do have to admit that the wiki's wording of it is... quite questionable to me as an Arab ("slavers by nature"?). But it is a thing.
I do have to admit that the wiki's wording of it is... quite questionable to me as an Arab ("slavers by nature"?). But it is a thing.
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- Earth
What do you mean by how late we arrived? We chose the early arrival.
I mean the slavery is not manifestly much worse than some of the worst abuses of the Bretonians and those are wider ranging. To be honest much like in Bretonia most of the human misery in Kislev likely comes from serfdom and not slavery, I just brought it up as an IC concern.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Early arrival meant we joined the expedition before it left (iirc a couple of days), the original joining time was going to be after it had already been on the move for a week at the high pass.
Chlof
Her Ladyship
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- She/Her
As far as I can tell it's based on a single throwaway line in Realm of The Ice Queen and my use of the search engine tells me Boney has never actually commented on it so yeah, I would wait until you can get clarification.
Great analysis, terrible conclusion. Wanting to help Kislev doesn't mean that Kislev is the best place to work from. It sacrifices many advantages offered by the other options for some "rah-rah hype" by a guy who gave a pretty good speech but obviously understands nothing about what we're actually trying to do.
Ive read 3 threads od warhammer stories and that is that. Never anything before. Watches a vid of total warhammer. So things not said are things not known by me. Not Sure if there are a lot of others like me.
But I do really like the story thats written here and it got me hooked
But I do really like the story thats written here and it got me hooked
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- Earth
Could you clarify what you meant by 'late arrival' if not that, then?
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- New Brunswick, NJ
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I cannot find any mention in QM posts of slavery in Kislev. As far as I can tell, Boney has been silent on this topic. But if it's well-established in standard lore per the chart of canonicity, then we should assume it exists. If it's not well-established, though, we shouldn't run away with this topic.
@BoneyM, could you clarify the practice of Kislevite slavery within DL canon? IC Mathilde should know; we did buy a lot of Kislev books.
@BoneyM, could you clarify the practice of Kislevite slavery within DL canon? IC Mathilde should know; we did buy a lot of Kislev books.
It's definitely not the best place to work from overall. Laurelorn clearly has the most going for it. But it's the best place to work from to save Kislev.
I am very clear on the fact that it's not the ideal in the abstract. But I want to answer his cry for salvation, because, as mentioned, I am responsibility-poisoned.
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- Location
- Canada
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- He/Him
In the hopes that it helps,
Is there anyone in the thread you trust enough to take on your fire-dousing hat for 8 or 10 hours, so you could get some sleep?
Failing that, maybe one of the SV mods would be willing?
dinomannitro6
all your gender is belong to us
- Location
- The Land Where The Sunflowers Bloom
Perhaps from an Optimal Play perspective, but there is also the perspective of the quest as a collaborative narrative where its not a bad conclusion.
Magnos III
(Unverified Planeswalker)
One new good point in favor of Laurelorn:
Mathilde: So, I decided to set up the project at Laurelorn and now I'm looking for some more wizards to help it out.
Wizards: Well, I'm sure a lot of us would be interested but there is always a lot to do so not everybody would be available to…
Mathilde: Did I mentioned that we would get full access to the Library of Mournings?
Wizards: …
Wizards: *Cue epic duels between every college to decide who gets to go help Mathilde's Project.*
I joke but yeah, it would probably be even easier to get top college support with the library as bait. Just as we are tempted by B O O K so will all wizards we can offer to the chance to join the project. And this is no small thing.
Mathilde: So, I decided to set up the project at Laurelorn and now I'm looking for some more wizards to help it out.
Wizards: Well, I'm sure a lot of us would be interested but there is always a lot to do so not everybody would be available to…
Mathilde: Did I mentioned that we would get full access to the Library of Mournings?
Wizards: …
Wizards: *Cue epic duels between every college to decide who gets to go help Mathilde's Project.*
I joke but yeah, it would probably be even easier to get top college support with the library as bait. Just as we are tempted by B O O K so will all wizards we can offer to the chance to join the project. And this is no small thing.
Despite BoneyM's conviction that he is personally responsible for reading every single post in the thread, I have been assured by at least one staff member that it is not so. A QM being responsible for their quest thread does not mean that they are liable for scrutinizing every single post made. It means that they are responsible for the general tone of discussion overall. If a shitty post slips in here or there, no one is going to sanction the QM. If a shitty argument erupts, no one is going to sanction the QM. "Thread culture" means long term discussion over many days and weeks, not feeling like you (the QM) will be held to account if things go bad on a short to mid-term basis.
If BoneyM is experiencing significant stress because he thinks it is his responsibility to read every single post and keep constant watch lest a "fire" erupt, I really wish he would consult with some SV staff and get a more realistic picture of his actual level of responsibility.
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The chief goals of the waystone project are in part determined by our backer - and what they'll be applied to first, which may be all they're applied to in the scope of the quest considering it's going to keep rolling for decades after we start, is similarly going to be determined by our backers.
We have in-character stuff pointing this out...
And also OOC pointing this out.
How much of our success we can export to other places and use cases is one measure of our success, but where and under whom we base this project is going to determine who is first in line and most likely to get theirs covered.
If you want to help Kislev, then actually yes Kislev really is the best place to work from. Don't pretend that we can guarantee we will help Kislev by starting somewhere else. I might think Alectai is being alarmist about his conclusions re: the grey lords, but that doesn't mean the difficulties and uncertainties of producing results outside our home base isn't a concern.
We are not just shopping for who can give our project the best shinies, we are shopping for whose problem we want to be first in line for getting solved.
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I don't want to work in Kislev because I think Boris will be a shitty boss who doesn't understand anything about the project. He may be wildly enthusiastic, but he is not competent to run a magical project and his bulldozing "I'll just threaten everyone into cooperation" ways do not inspire trust in me.
As for "if you want to help Kislev then help Kislev" my understanding of Waystones was that the project is supposed to help the entire world. That's the justification we heard over and over again. Wherever Waystones start being fixed it will benefit everyone by pushing Chaos back in general. Now I'm being told that Actually only the polity we host in will see a benefit? Seems like pro-Waystone voters were being sold a bill of goods.
As for "if you want to help Kislev then help Kislev" my understanding of Waystones was that the project is supposed to help the entire world. That's the justification we heard over and over again. Wherever Waystones start being fixed it will benefit everyone by pushing Chaos back in general. Now I'm being told that Actually only the polity we host in will see a benefit? Seems like pro-Waystone voters were being sold a bill of goods.
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Did you not even read the boney posts I quoted or something? Of course we're shooting to help the entire world, but we don't know if we'll succeed at helping anyone at all. Whoever's problem is first in line has the best shot at getting their problem solved by this project, if it manages to solve anyone's at all, because how broadly our solution can be applied is one more thing we can't guarantee.
I'd think that would be obvious to someone who is worried that we'll produce so few results that Boris will turn the screws on us. The project's success is not a binary.
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Sure wish people had known that when we were voting on which job to take.
Also, since it's true and you've made a good case it's true, why in the world do people want to help Kislev because Boris made one good speech over helping the Empire or Karaz Ankor? You'd rather help this group of strangers than the people that Mathilde has sworn herself to helping? Fuck Kislev, this is a great reason to prioritize the people we care about instead.
Kislev can go screw off. This only confirms my "anyone, but anyone but Kislev" stance.
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Sir_Travelsalot
Never wakes up tired.
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Boney said that the Waystone project's optimal outcome will be something that can be applied worldwide and the knowledge spread around. The best result any of our potential patrons expect to be achievable is something that works, but won't be able to be implemented much beyond their own territories either due to the danger the knowledge poses, so they all want to get priority on it.
I wasn't trying to be funny. That's my honest perspective on the situation.