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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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pucflek said:
Yes. I agree, the tradition that led to this conundrum is bad. Or maybe its not, because the dwarfs would have sealed themselves to all die out because they knew they were about when Vlag and Dum fell. Who knows.

But thats not the same tradition as the one that keeps the Kings from acting out and leads to civil war.

Or the one where they judge people by their merit, so they are not as nasty to wizards as Empire folk is. Mathilde rather enjoys that, no?

I am not arguing that Thorgrim should keep silent, this problem needs resolution. But giving Belegar more reasons to do whatever is not it, because it tarnishes tradition that keeps Karaz Ankor mostly glued together despite the ocassional ribbing.
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See the basic difference between our positions is that I trust Beleger to not to whatever, but instead act with wisdom and caution as he has always done. I do not blindly trust the traditions of the Karaz Ankor.
 
DragonParadox said:
See the basic difference between our positions is that I trust Beleger to not to whatever, but instead act with wisdom and caution as he has always done. I do not blindly trust the traditions of the Karaz Ankor.
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The very first post i fired this discussion off with highlighted that Belegar, whetever consciously or not, implicated an actual Ancestor God of theft. Or if not him then his son and every High King since. This does not speak well of his ability to act on conventional wisdom, especially since in his perception, he tried the wisdom once and Thorgrim actually screwed him over more.
 
pucflek said:
I think his reaction to discovery of the theft is rather telling. And his previous held beliefs which i started this whole argument with. But i don't think we will convince each other of the truth of our opinions.
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I do disagree with those conclusions yes. But hey, it's not like we want different things here - we just disagree about what's going to happen.
 
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pucflek said:
The very first post i fired this discussion off with highlighted that Belegar, whetever consciously or not, implicated an actual Ancestor God of theft. Or if not him then his son and every High King since. This does not speak well of his ability to act on conventional wisdom, especially since in his perception, he tried the wisdom once and Thorgrim actually screwed him over more.
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No, he did not. While the Rune of Valaya is indeed using the power, it was not the decision of Valaya to set up the system, much less to make it happen. That happened much later in the Golden and Silver Age. The Waystone Network is younger than the Throne of Eternity.
 
[X] Yes
While I understand this is a bad decision, It doesn't hold right with me to withhold this information back. It may end badly but that's a problem we will deal with when it comes.
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
The internal conflict is already there, and leaving Belegar in ignorance isn't going to do anything to resolve it. And unless it is resolved, it will fester into a full-on Grudge, and from there, possibly civil war.
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But this will escalate said internal conflict to a whole new level.

What we need is a way for Belegar and Thorgrim to air out their differences without having them coming into blows. Convincing Belegar of the theft, as erronous as the assumption might be, is not the way to do that.
 
To people saying yes is gamble that may end catastrophically... yes it is. But...

The yes-no vote is not necessarilly a choice between facing the fallout or preventing the fallout

It is much more likely a choice between facing the fallout now and facing a worse fallout later, when we are in a worse position to do anything about it.

People are saying we are gambling on Belegar seeing reason? Yes, they are right. We are quite possibly gambling catastrophy on long odds. But the no vote is also gambling in him never finding out, and frankly, if he does find out without us to moderate him, the possible outcomes will be much worse. And he is likely to find out because he owns a Karak and really wants to find out, so this will most likely not remain shoved under the rug forever. And when he does find out, telling him the info from the expedition will make him trust us and our opinion slightly less, becuse we didn't tell him then.

So choose your gamble, people. I think yes has better odds for less catstrophic outcomes, for we are forcing the issue while we have an advantage, while no relies on praying he never finds out and accepting the WORST consequences if he ever does. For me, the yes gamble has much better odds than shoving this under the rug, cause that rarely lasts forever, and we'll forever live in fear of him finding out.
 
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DragonParadox said:
See the basic difference between our positions is that I trust Beleger to not to whatever, but instead act with wisdom and caution as he has always done. I do not blindly trust the traditions of the Karaz Ankor.
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Say he shows the wisdom and caution of not making waves, not accusing the High King of Theft from every (major, not that he knows that) Karak. Say he sucks up that affront to the dignity of
Karak Eight Peaks and the whole Karaz Ankor- perhaps indeed for that same fear of breaking it in civil war?

That feels like a lot of additional weight for a person of honour already feeling considerable stress to bear.
 
DragonParadox said:
No, he did not. While the Rune of Valaya is indeed using the power, it was not the decision of Valaya to set up the system, much less to make it happen. That happened much later in the Golden and Silver Age. The Waystone Network is younger than the Throne of Eternity.
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I literally explained my reasoning in the post while linking this, but i guess i will have to do it again.
BoneyM said:
"'Just as the Dwarves do,'" he repeats. "'Just as the Dwarves do.' Oh, Grimnir give me strength, Valaya give me wisdom, Thungni give me eyes to see the unseen. First Thorgrim did not send aid. Then the Crown was reassembled. Then Thorgrim sends aid. Oh, that sly old bastard."

"You think-" you begin, and then stop yourself, realizing that this fits exactly with Algard's concerns with Ulthuan. Magic being siphoned off across a continent for the benefit of a single central power, leaving those being robbed in ignorance. "Oh."

"'So long as the Rune of Azamar endures, the Karaz Ankor shall never fall.' Right there in plain sight, lying to all our faces. It's bloody powered off the Karaz Ankor, for the benefit of Karaz-a-Karak. I thought I'd put his beard to the fire when we spoke, but he's willing to send aid to fortify because it lets him rob my Kingdom blind." You remain silent, extremely uncomfortable with how this is escalating but not able to point out any outright errors in his reasoning. He sighs again. "Thank you. Once more I am in your debt."
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Belegar thinks Rune of Azamar is juiced up by Karaz Ankor for benefit of Karaz-a-Karak. Even if you take the least severe implication, it would mean he is accusing the position of High Kings themselves since the times of at least Gotri Starbreaker, but probably actually straight to Snorri Whitebeard, of screwing over the dwarfs the realm over. The Ancestor God i mentioned was Grungni, not Valaya. Because he is the one that made the Rune and uttered the prophecy. And Belegar, in his hate on for Thorgrim, doesn't go "okay maybe there is a reason for this i do not know", but goes straight to "Thorgrim is a goddamn thief" and indirectly accusing a very long line of High Kings by transitive of property of them sitting on that Rune that was doing that for like 4000 years, at least.

That is a helluva goddamn bomb right there.

As it is, i do not believe Belegar can be trusted to be entirely rational, because this sure as hell shows he is not.
 
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People need to understand that dawi civil war is not a worst case scenario, not by a long shot.
All it takes is Belegar going "i will not be robbed", and destroying a single waystone linking K8P to rest of Karaz Ankor, and unless Vlag+Dum are currently creating enough surplus energy, it can lead to dawi extinction.
If it was just a massively public blowout between Belegar and Thorgrim, or a civil war, i would not be so worried, but the worst case scenario here is so much worse.
 
DragonParadox said:
Lying to someone who comes from a very honor-based culture and who would see this as betrayal is wrong.
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Okay so is your stance "lying to Dwarves we like is inherently wrong"? 'cause again, from the perspective of both our training and our faith, that's honestly farcical. Regimand murdered the Empress. Surreptitious action that runs contrary to the wishes and traditions of your allies on the basis your own best judgment is extremely in-paradigm here.
 
Valmond said:
People need to understand that dawi civil war is not a worst case scenario, not by a long shot.
All it takes is Belegar going "i will not be robbed", and destroying a single waystone linking K8P to rest of Karaz Ankor, and unless Vlag+Dum are currently creating enough surplus energy, it can lead to dawi extinction.
If it was just a massively public blowout between Belegar and Thorgrim, or a civil war, i would not be so worried, but the worst case scenario here is so much worse.
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Yes, but it is a possible outcome for either vote, and if we vote no we'll not be able to be there and moderate him during his decision.
 
We need more data. Half truth can be more dangerous then a full lie. Just 3 Karak is not enough.

Yes The energy is being stolen, but that this expands old network(s) and what the energy is being used for, and such and such is still a mystery

We are not pure researcher, we are a general, we are a loremaster, we are a Grey Lady Magister.

As a researcher, just publishing what we know as it is, can be understandable. But not as Lady Magister, not as Thane and certainly not as Lore master. we are not babe in the woods or wide eyed idealist.
We made our bones in the council of a witch hunter.

We tell that we need more data in new and old Karak, and to ask directly to the high king.

And i hope we have enough dwarven favor to ask high king in private regarding the power and what is it being used. Afterall, he claim that we have a Dawi Soul ( if this is B-5, we're like Valen)

So
[x] No
Edit :
The next morning, you go over your many notes from the Expedition. You'd spent some of your downtime during the last leg to Praag going over what your report would be, and then that announcement from Karaz-a-Karak, or more specifically the date of said announcement, had thrown an unexpected complication in. You've got strong circumstantial evidence that Karaz-a-Karak is on some level aware of the flow of magical energy from the Karaks, which could be seen as supporting King Belegar's belief that Karaz-a-Karak is knowingly stealing that energy. Do you include that conclusion in your report to him?
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We might be Umgi, but our logic and analysis is pure Dawi. No hearsay, no unproven theory, no hypotesis. Just solid unvarnished truth.

And circumstantial evidence is just that. Circumstantial.
 
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Valmond said:
People need to understand that dawi civil war is not a worst case scenario, not by a long shot.
All it takes is Belegar going "i will not be robbed", and destroying a single waystone linking K8P to rest of Karaz Ankor, and unless Vlag+Dum are currently creating enough surplus energy, it can lead to dawi extinction.
If it was just a massively public blowout between Belegar and Thorgrim, or a civil war, i would not be so worried, but the worst case scenario here is so much worse.
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Belegar sat down and talked to Thorgrim when he had hard proof that Thorgrim had abandoned him and his people to be killed by greenskins, of all things. I doubt Belegar would be less diplomatic in response to suspicions of theft.
Wiadi said:
Okay so is your stance "lying to Dwarves we like is inherently wrong"? 'cause again, from the perspective of both our training and our faith, that's honestly farcical. Regimand murdered the Empress. Surreptitious action that runs contrary to the wishes and traditions of your allies on the basis your own best judgment is extremely in-paradigm here.
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Point of order, Regimand was acting on the judgment of Magnus the Pious.
 
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