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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Dimensional displacement makes the least sense of all the theories because it doesn't fit into the greater picture.

Personally there's exactly one set of facts and assumptions that fits most of what we know.

[] Comprehensive theory of SSS
Karak Dums rune of Valaya has been modified in a similar vein to the belt of the unshackled mountain, this is causing the dhar to burn as it tries to enter the Karak (waystone, but we can't tell the expedition this), in turn this is giving off massive amounts of heat which is being radiated into the surrounding territory, the Rune of Valaya as part of it's natural function probably works to stabilise reality with no further modifications needed. That would explain the bubble of different terrain.

Morghur being born to Dum Dwarves (maybe Boreks family) and given the rites of Valaya instead of being 'gaved' to the forest as he's always been in the past when in human hands has fundamentally changed his nature alongside what ever runic protections Karak Dums runemasters may have engaged in.

The Karak Dum Dwarves and this Morghur then utilise the fact that they have Morghur to attract beastmen to their Karak in the surrounding forests which have grown over time due to the extra heat given off by the Karaks dhar burning allowing it to expand beyond the normal woodland it was before. Morghurs status within the beastmen psyche means even if he's sane and not acting like normal they'd still follow him even whilst still being chaos worshippers.

So the shame is that Karak Dum has 'not allied' with the Beastmen who are still chaos worshipers being 'tricked' into helping fight off the chaos tribes surrounding Karak Dum.

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Missing from this is conjecture on what happened to the other mountains, tell me if you think there's any other holes. This is also quite literally the most ludicrously optimistic nonsense i've ever written and I doubt basically all of it because it's far far to convenient for us and feels like a load of wishful thinking.
 
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Oh hey, people are looking for things we could get from Karag Dum that would be worth it. How about the 2 canonical artefacts of the Ancestor Gods that are in there, the Hammer of Fate and the Axe of Runemasters?

...Okay that second one is apparently also known as the Axe of Grimnir, so it's probably in some random cave and not here, but the Hammer of Fate is still in there, probably!
 
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SuperSonicSound said:
Missing from this is conjecture on what happened to the other mountains, tell me if you think there's any other holes. This is also quite literally the most ludicrously optimistic nonsense i've ever written and I doubt basically all of it because it's far far to convenient for us and feels like a load of wishful thinking.
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The Rune of Valaya probably got turned into the Rune of Valaya's Vengeance - which is not the same rune, it's modified with Rune of the Furnace parts - to do the Dhar-burning that we're pretty sure is happening. It turns out that when you start burning all the Dhar in an area with a rune the size of what gets used to protect entire holds, in the middle of the Chaos Wastes, an explosion occurs. The hold was protected by the Rune, as with our belt, but everything around it was destroyed.

Karag Dum sits in the middle of a crater filled with desert. That desert? It's the smithereens of the mountains that got annihilated.

...And then at some point a forest got added, but that happened later.
 
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ReImagined said:
Remember when we picked press on, and it turned out that every other councilor wanted to turn back? It's not a given, no, but there's no plausible reason for why they would want to stay here.
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Because staying here for a day costs very little and potentially makes the whole trip's purpose of finding out the fate of Karag Dum actually happen, rather than... not.

Most people aren't going to be happy with the idea that they've spent 3 months of their life and seen friends die and the result is "Hmmm, looks kinda weird, not sure what's going on, better head back without finding out".
 
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kingreaper said:
Because staying here for a day costs very little and potentially makes the whole trip's purpose of finding out the fate of Karag Dum actually happen, rather than... not.
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BoneyM said:
They've been hugging the Expedition ever since one of them found the house he was born in, and then it bit him.
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BoneyM said:
There's a moment as Snorri processes that. "Alright, job done, Borek's back home, time we accomplished the same for ourselves," he says briskly. "If this thing's stuck, leave it here."
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The mystery puzzle is engaging to us. It's very much less so to everybody else.
 
ReImagined said:
Remember when we picked press on, and it turned out that every other councilor wanted to turn back? It's not a given, no, but there's no plausible reason for why they would want to stay here.
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Thats not what happened.

We picked press on and every other councillor would have picked turn back if we didn't solve the supply issue.

That is because every commander knows that bravery and/or curiosity won't save you from empty bellies, especially if you have to fight.

The nature of that danger was waaaay different, as is the way people would regard it. It is not rational to assume they'll react similarly to this very different situation, when their objections were specific rather than general naysaying/fear/wanting to go back.

They all came here for a reason after all, the reason they wanted to turn back was because they thought things were unfeasible which, if Mathilde or they see a way forward, won't be true here either.
 
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kingreaper said:
Most people aren't going to be happy with the idea that they've spent 3 months of their life and seen friends die and the result is "Hmmm, looks kinda weird, not sure what's going on, better head back without finding out".
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Most people are going to be even more unhappy with staying in the vicinity of an angry hostile demigod.
 
Klaus said:
Every person other than maybe Mathilde wants to go home right now. If you care about them the way you claim to, then Turn Back is the only option. The expedition has successfully discovered the fate of Karag Dum and it is horrible. Job's done, they achieved the goal they set out for.
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I was talking about Borek's pain being a factor. Nothing else. The people on the Expedition wanting to go home is valid, being worried about risk; is valid. Your words that I'm responding to here are not addressing my post at all.

People died as a consequence of this expedition being outfitted who otherwise would have lived. That is a fact.

My point is that the emotional state of Borek in regard to his choices may well be important in terms of "what will Borek choose to do", but his state, in terms of being our decisions being motivated or influenced by the pain he may or may not be feeling, for his own sake... should not be a factor in what we decide to do.

His suffering, (taken away from any further outcomes or consequences) is not meaningless. It is bad.

It is also something that should be acknowledged as negligible when we make our choices.


Deathbybunnies said:
Oh hey, people are looking for things we could get from Karag Dum that would be worth it. How about the 2 canonical artefacts of the Ancestor Gods that are in there, the Hammer of Fate and the Axe of Runemasters?

...Okay that second one is apparently also known as the Axe of Grimnir, so it's probably in some random cave and not here, but the Hammer of Fate is still in there, probably!
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I expect that maximum radical dwarves are either using them or have repurposed them into something else tbh. I don't think we're likely to get any physical things from here if the dwarves are still alive. Information and Knowledge are the best I think we can hope for.

(except maybe some metal or wooden beams to cover the wall in the cliffside)
 
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So far we have 139 unique votes. Time to add to the pile.

[X] ACTION: Call out Borek to explain better, lest he be faced with an unsettled debt and a Grudge.
This is similar to the previously suggested
[] THEORY: I think I still owe Borek like 1800 gold.
but partly phrased in terms of appealing to Borek's dwarf sensibilities, also the fact that dwarfs died to get him here and he owes the survivors a bit more explanation what their comrades died for. Boney might merge them but maybe this variant is more appealing to some.

And sorting through the list to see what else I want to support... starting by cutting out the actions of asking other council members for their opinion/knowledge, because I assume they'll present their theories when Mathilde presents hers.

[X] ACTION: Attempt closer examination of Morghur, the beastmen, and the forest.
[X] ACTION: Attempt to contact the nearby Kurgan tribes for information.
[X] ACTION: Call out to Dun for a parley.
[X] ACTION: Dig up some of those bones to confirm how they died.
[X] ACTION: It's a forest. We have a fire breathing dragon. Burn it and run, let the Kurgan bleed to death against the foe.
[X] ACTION: The cure for confusion is curiosity, and there are two other fronts attacking Dum. The rest of the Expedition should pull clear for now, though. You can catch up.
[X] ACTION: We need information. The Yusak have been in this area for long enough, they must know something of what happened. The wagons will pull back to their territory, and while they are en-route I will attempt to directly ask Morghur (From a distance, using a spell) what has become of Karag Dum. If the worst comes to worst we will already be retreating and I will be fast enough to catch up. We will figure out our further course of action once we know more.
[x] ACTION: Demand the Runesmith in the Morghur Fursuit presents Borek so you can scream at him for not mentioning he was taking you to the Capital of Dwarven Illusion Craft. You would have brought more ink and paper.
[x] ACTION: Form up the steam-wagons for defence.
[x] ACTION: Politely ask Morghur to be granted entrance into Karak Dum.
[X] Action: Look for the source of the desert.
[X] Action: Pray for guidance. In this realm reality is more malleable, perhaps our gods will be able to reach us more easily here.
[X] THEORY: Based on Guild and Dwarf secrets we can tell that Karag Dum is slowing the spread of the Chaos Wastes.
[X] THEORY: Gor Dum is either a mutated dwarf or controlled by a dwarf, look at how he reacted to Borek.
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum converted their Rune of Valaya into a Rune of Valaya's Vengeance, and used it to burn away all of the surrounding Dhar, causing a cataclysmic explosion and presumably wiping out whatever threat they were facing. But having lost their Rune of Valaya, they no longer had a defence against the Winds of Chaos, and they knew it. They could not simply die, for they had a critical duty to protect their hold, for reasons that are secrets of my Guild and Karak Eight Peaks, and so they decided that if they could not survive to defend it as Dwarves they would no longer be Dwarves. They found a way for dwarves to become beastmen, and know that they must defend their Karak as though it were their herdstone. Pity them.
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum has built magical flesh golems, and Morghur is one.
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum has somehow tricked or compelled Morghur to fight the Kurgan tribes.
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum is fallen, and has made a pact with Morghur.
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum is using a fake Morghur to make the real beastmen fight for them.
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum may have found a way to create and control beastmen.
[X] THEORY: Plotter Demons came out of the rift at Karag Vlag and they found and burned our cashes in front of us. We've seen neither hide nor hair of them since. I think this might be them. I've reason to believe, from my investigations around Karag Vlag, that Karag Dum, at least at its core, is still standing, and uncorrupted. Or at least, not fully corrupted. This may not be Morghur, but rather a Lord of Change or other Greater Demon of the Plotter, pretending to be him to send us away. I think the Karag may still stand, in some form, either fighting on or as a trap/test for those who come here. The shimmer and shift as Borek went certainly seems to indicate some kind of magical effect, either rune, or more likely, Sorcery or Illusion.
[X] THEORY: The Dwarves of Karag Dum did something to burn away the taint of Chaos, much as your Belt of the Unshackled Mountain does, but on a far grander scale. Perhaps it had an effect on the Beastmen here, Cor-Dum included.
[X] THEORY: The burning of Dhar or purifying it by whatever process Karag Dum has makes the temperature higher, could potentially be the reason why the desert exist.
[X] THEORY: There's some sort of strange illusion magic going on, and it's not visible even to extremely good mage sight. Out of all known sources of magic only Dawi Runes are capable of that - so the works of Dawi Runesmiths are still in use.
[X] THEORY: This could be a Rune-based Illusion with "Morghur" being a Runemaster. The Dawi of Karag Dum let the forces of Chaos assume that Dum has fallen and is surrounded by Beastmen forces so they don't all unite to attack the Hold together and instead only come in smaller groups to "test" themselves against another chaotic force.
[X] THEORY: This is a mass hallucination.
[X] Theory - There are no Beastmen, only Dryads, Elgi and illusions
[X] Theory: Borek needs to be punched in the face
[x] THEORY: Morghur was reborn as a dwarf and at least partially protected by the Valayan rites, subsequently those protections were relaxed to allow him to mutate physically while retaining self-control and his dwarven identity.
[x] THEORY: Physical signs point to Morghur having been holding the area against nomad raiders for a very long time, and history implies that he's not been seen in the old world since approximately when Karag Dum would have come under attack during the Great War against Chaos. He's been here this whole time.
[x] THEORY: Theory continued: Borek expected Morghur, Morghur favors Borek, Borek isn't chaos-aligned(he had the chance to prevent us from acting on Vlag, but he didn't, and was, in fact, happy about the result). Obvious conclusion, Morghur is aligned with Borek in some way apart from alignment to chaos.

Yes, I am voting for thirty different things. I feel this is an appropriate representation of my confusion. :)
 
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Thinking about it the argument that we should vote to Turn Back because everyone else will want to makes zero sense to me.

If everyone else wants to turn back we'll be turning back. Mathilde is not going to force them to stay. She might be able to, but she's not going to try.

Voting to turn back because you actually want to turn back makes sense. Everyone other than Snorri might want to stay, so Mathilde should make her voice heard.

But voting to turn back because everyone else will want to achieves nothing if you're right - it's only relevant if you're wrong and some folks do want to stay and investigate.
 
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The prevailing theories are too optimistic for my tastes. I don't think they have fallen to chaos but there is something deeply disturbing going on here. Also Snorri seems pretty angry, that rando dwarf engineer does not seem to want be here to help out Karag Dum. I doubt the Taalites want to help out Dum if it looks like they're consorting with beastmen. We can probably make a case to hang out and investigate but Snorri is probably the new expedition leader. Also we freed Vlag this expedition is a success because of that. We don't need to find out what happened exactly in Dum for it to be a success. I also want to point again Borek did not seem to think that this was a good situation. He is both more up to date on the situation than us, and is a radical dwarf. If he thinks whatever happened here is unforgivable then maybe we should consider that we can not convince the Karaz Ankor to accept whatever they have done.

kingreaper said:
Thinking about it the argument that we should vote to Turn Back because everyone else will want to makes zero sense to me.

If everyone else wants to turn back we'll be turning back. Mathilde is not going to force them to stay. She might be able to, but she's not going to try.

Voting to turn back because you actually want to turn back makes sense. Everyone other than Snorri might want to stay, so Mathilde should make her voice heard.

But voting to turn back because everyone else will want to achieves nothing if you're right - it's only relevant if you're wrong and some folks do want to stay and investigate.
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I have seen someone bring it up so I am not confident that we would not.
 
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I may have additional point to the riddle. Morghur is there for a long time. It likely died multiple times with other tribes 'testing themselves' over him. Morghur is unkillable though and keeps being reborned.

But whom he is being reborned from?

What Dum runesmiths could do is to make him reborn from volunteer dwarf. Sacrifice one of their number for their main defence to come back to life, here and now, to continue defence. And runesmiths made it so some part of sacrifice's mind and soul remains.
- It explains shame of Botrek. It's sin agains everything dawi are.
- It explains why Morghur does not attack dwarves (over multiple rebirths he come to see them as allies/parents)
- It explains why Morghur did thing as 'stand aside' which is not gesture of mindless bestmen. Remnants of souls consumed and minds shattered.
- It explains why his nature may have changed.
- It explains why he sees Karak as his heardstone. For is home for some part of it.

It does not explain change in Dum surrounding, but it fits nicely in make other regards.
 
DiceOfStupidity said:
I may have additional point to the riddle. Morghur is there for a long time. It likely died multiple times with other tribes 'testing themselves' over him. Morghur is unkillable though and keeps being reborned.
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Er, no. If that was the real Morghur, there'd be no possible way those guys could kill him, not even if he fought them all at once by himself and they could punch voodoo dolls so they wouldn't get into each other's way. He'd just murder them all by walking towards them.
 
Sovereign Hunt said:
He prayed to the Ancestor Gods right in front of us. Willing Chaos worshippers would sooner cut out their tongues than do that.
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Source? I don't think any of the Chaos Gods has rules against lying. And the Kurgans worship entities like Mannslieb and Hysh. Also, the Ancestor-Gods are pretty non-interventionist lately, so I wouldn't expect a retaliatory smiting from them the way that the Skaven fear if they blaspheme against or turn away from their own deity.
Alliterate said:
Because there's no easy way (for me) to know what that theory is when casting a vote.

It's a nondescriptive vote title, it'd be a chore even for Boney to go hunting back through what, 100+ pages looking for it, is every poster supposed to do the same?
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You don't need to go hunting. When you click on a name below a vote you get taken to the comment where the vote was made. Omegahugger's is near the top of the list.

Kornet said:
Entire branches were lost. There was civilian runecraft, once, with a large body of runes. Now, even Kragg doesn't know a single of those.
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There's still civilian Runecraft. Like the reading and transcribing and bath heating Runes.
 
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As yet another aside, what are people thinking in terms of the return journey? Without specialized mining equipment the way we came seems untenable, we need cows from the Dougan, and pack ice is the only other option.
 
Strange9 said:
As yet another aside, what are people thinking in terms of the return journey? Without specialized mining equipment the way we came seems untenable, we need cows from the Dougan, and pack ice is the only other option.
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While I appreciate the topic switch, I'm pretty sure the moratorium applies until we leave KD. That said, we don't strictly speaking need the cows:

BoneyM said:
By the time you reach the edge of Dolgan land your stores have swelled considerably, and at your current pace you'll reach Karag Dum with four weeks of food remaining - enough for the return journey even if the Dolgan renege on the return journey.
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Mmm the part that bothers me is the desert, it doesn't quite fit with the rest, people have mentioned that maybe the mountains were blasted apart from runes changing and burning Dhar, but this place does not look like the result of an explosion, specially not one from within as it would be if the runes where constantly burning Dhar.

I can see the runes maintaining the desert by burning Dhar as it approaches, but it's creation must have been something else.

There is one element here that we are mostly ignoring. Chaos. we know they must have tried something here like they did in Vlag and in canon, but what? some kind of disintegration or displacement effect seem like the most likely candidates. Then the runes come in and heat everything up.

That or the desert is the effect, a crawling decay of rock advancing towards the Karag would eventually destroy the hold and the waystone within without them needing to do anything, the wind blowing away the sand and digging the pit over the years.
In which case we need to do something about it.
 
das_slash said:
Mmm the part that bothers me is the desert, it doesn't quite fit with the rest, people have mentioned that maybe the mountains were blasted apart from runes changing and burning Dhar, but this place does not look like the result of an explosion, specially not one from within as it would be if the runes where constantly burning Dhar.
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I've got a thought on that one: Mountains do eventually let dhar sink in. It's slow, but it happens. So rather than thinking of it as them being pulverised from outside or exploded outward from a single point, they'd have been vaporised as every point within the mountains had a separate tiny explosion. Meaning they'd go directly from rock to sand.
 
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