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8027 of 8054 and dinner in coming out of the oven soon.
Sorry if this is old speculation:

Current evidence suggests Dum has done something the Karaz Ankor would not accept. But that Mathilde would not be terribly bothered by.
Evidence suggests Cor is not the actual Cor and that Mathilde could probably get past him, one way or another.
The cliff between us and home hasn't gone anywhere.

I'm for going into Dum and seeing if we can buy some proper digging tools.
 
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Morghur is traditionally born as a human. Specifically a human because beastmen are corrupted humans, that is their origin and humans are the only species ever known to have birthed them. This is because humans are more corruptible, but also because Chaos isn't stupid and won't waste power trying to mutate the elder races when they have so many protections specifically to stop them.

We don't know that he's traditionally only born as a human. We only have one recorded incident of the events around his rebirth. He could also have been born as an elf or fimir or whatever before and they had good enough magic to abort or kill him at birth, at which point he respawned elsewhere, or he killed his family and all records were lost.

The Chaos Gods may well not control where he reincarnates.

Edit: And the Wood Elves first fought him in Athel Loren before there's evidence that there were humans in the Old World, if I have the dates right.
 
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I wonder if our confusion is now so strong that the wind of Ulgu is like just pouring towards us and completely ignoring the waystone entirely. Time for an Ulgu ascension. :V
 
We don't know that he's traditionally only born as a human. We only have one recorded incident of the events around his rebirth. He could also have been born as an elf or fimir or whatever before and they had good enough magic to abort or kill him at birth, at which point he respawned elsewhere, or he killed his family and all records were lost.

Edit: And the Wood Elves first fought him in Athel Loren before there's evidence that there were humans in the Old World, if I have the dates right.
Chaos stole humans to make Beastmen and they made it to the Old World long before humans did, this is known.

And fact is other races couldn't birth Beastmen. They were designed to be resistant to corruption in soul, mind and body. Dark Elves use Dhar and do not mutate, and Chaos Dwarves only mutate in certain ways Hashut likes. None of the Slaaneshi slayers mutated, and look at all they'd had done to them.

What happened was little Morghur was born from humans and found his way into the forest as he usually does because human villagers are weak and baby Morghur is mighty. Then he quickly grows up and goes on to terrorize the world wherever he wants because Beastmen are everywhere.
 
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Chaos stole humans to make Beastmen and they made it to the Old World long before humans did, this is known.

And fact is other races couldn't birth Beastmen. They were designed to be resistant to corruption in soul, mind and body. Dark Elves use Dhar and do not mutate, and Chaos Dwarves only mutate in certain ways Hashut likes.

Beastmen don't have to come from humans. They can be mutated from animals with no humans being needed in the process. Chaos stole the design of humans to make beastmen, they don't need physical humans.

Elves are very resistant to chaos and dhar mutation. Morghur can still turn unlucky ones that get too close into chaos spawn. That suggests he could certainly mutate his own body by default.
 
I thought that most beastmen are born from other beastmen, is Morghur exception in this and needs to be born to parent from different specie ?
 
I have a very simple, straightforward, logically unassailable response to this.

WHAT THE ACTUAL JESUS FUCK
 
That is a very successful state of affairs that doesn't match up with Borek going "Well shit, let everyone know that we tried really fucking hard, may the Ancestors forgive what my Hold has resorted to".
Dwarves get tetchy over things we'd be okay with.

Like that axe Kragg was working on. If it can't be verified as good solid Ancestor work, seal it away for all time.
Literally a fucking explanation before he trotted of to the demigod would have been nice, ya know! We got him here, the ungrateful wanker, the least he can do is help answer some questions before leaving.
Possibly he doesn't know that seeking answers is like crack to Grey Wizards, and he assumed Mathy would act like Dwarf:

"Hmph, shit be whack, I'm going home."
 
Elves are very resistant to chaos and dhar mutation. Morghur can still turn unlucky ones that get too close into chaos spawn. That suggests he could certainly mutate his own body by default.
True, but that's Morghur, in the fullness of his power. And if he was that the Dwarves could never had bound him. You're the one who theorized Chaos would deliberately make one of their favorites, who they resurrect every time he dies, be reborn into a trap. While also invoking the ridiculous hypothetical concept of Beastmen born from the Elder Races, too.
 
Wow, what a heck of an update. So.

1) Does Morghur? seem to be aware of the Expedition? There's been a lot of mention throughout the arc of how UN-stealthy these landships are.

2) How long have we been standing here goggling at this scene? We've been watching long enough to determine that he's worshipping Dum, so long enough that the Beastmen? could sally and mess with us if they were inclined to do it, yeah?

3) Are there any Dwarves about to go Slayer (hope not but), or Knights who are rethinking their job choices? Could we ask a Knight to trade their mount now for a fief in K8P, and then get the Ambers to send the wolf/gryph/dwarf as a scout?
 
Oh damn, this is why I hate being late for updates, I miss the critical part of the discussion.

All right, all right, this can still be solved logically, lessee...

Here's the base facts



So lets take it step by step.


- The magic flowing to Karak Vlag was uncorrupted, which you're fairly sure would not have been the case if the Hold had been conquered by Beastmen.
- There is less ambient Dhar here than other parts of the Chaos Wastes Mathilde has seen, though still more than outside of it.

Whatever this is, it ISN'T chaos, despite how it looks. If it was a mega chaos thingy, it would have corrupted everything, even bound or contracted or friendly. So the Dawi have not fallen to chaos.

- As far as Mathilde can tell, none of this is an illusion.

Which means what it means. It is real, regardless of whatever else it is. Even if we were fooled, charging Kurgans aiming to battle/get mutated wouldn't.

- Morghur is said to have been 'born' three hundred years ago, but there's stories of beings identical to him stretching back throughout recorded history.

Meaning this could be a being other than Morghur, and in fact...

- From your very limited knowledge, Morghur was last seen being pursued by High Elves in Bretonnia shortly before the Great War Against Chaos.
- Borek's reaction to Morghur did not seem surprised.

It most likely is, because this defense would have to be prepared before Borek left for him to recognise it and for it to recognise him, and Dum fell during the war of chaos, while Morghur was last seen elsewhere after the end of the war. He couldn't have moved either, because

- From what the Yusak said, and what the banners you passed seem to attest, Kurgan tribes have been fighting or 'testing themselves against' Morghur for some time.

Ergo, occam's razor, this is a different being.

- Morghur did not attack Borek, instead greeting him with what to Dwarves is a very intimate gesture.

Said being is friendly to the Dawi to an extreme degree.

- The landscape around Karag Dum has changed, including the disappearance of the smaller mountains around it, the growth of a forest around its base, and the appearance of a desert around the forest. It is also hotter here than anywhere else in the Steppes. Apart from the forests covering the lower parts of it, the exterior of Karag Dum appears unchanged.

The area around Dum got changed, but Dum itself did not. It was, however, changed in a symmetrical manner, unlike what chaos would do. Finally

- The forest is inhabited by Beastmen, who seem to be obeying Morghur.

Which seems to imply that whatever this is, beastmen or something resembling them are loyal to it.

Those are the facts and the most reasonable inferences, but... a few clues seem to be missing for a definite answer. That said, It doesnt matter.

[X] [Theory] All we know is that it is friendly and non chaotic. That is enough for now.

[X] [Action] wait nearby and observe. It shouldn't be nearly as dangerous as it seems, and that allows us to gather additional clues.

So, after reconsidering my syllogism after realising it says before rather than after... the parts about this most likely not being Morghur are fragile, but... the rest of it stands. This thing is not chaosy. With that in mind, let's approval vote some votes that posit that this is Morghul too.


[X] [Theory] All we know is that it is friendly and non chaotic. That is enough for now.
[X] [Action] wait nearby and observe. It shouldn't be nearly as dangerous as it seems, and that allows us to gather additional clues.
[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
[x] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum has somehow tricked or compelled Morghur to fight the Kurgan tribes.
[x] ACTION: Investigate further.
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum is using a fake Morghur to make the real beastmen fight for them.
[X] ACTION: Infiltrate Karag Dum to gather information.
[X] THEORY: Omegahugger
[X] ACTION: Expedition: Digs in; Mathilde: Investigates
[X] THEORY: Gor Dum is either a mutated dwarf or controlled by a dwarf, look at how he reacted to Borek.
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum may have found a way to create and control beastmen.
[X] THEORY: Things are not what they appear as at the first look. Nothing Mathilde knows allows for what they are witnessing to be the reality.

Edit: and my favourite theory @Garlak further down the thead proposed

[X] THEORY: The Dwarves of Karag Dum did something to burn away the taint of Chaos, much as your Belt of the Unshackled Mountain does, but on a far grander scale. Perhaps it had an effect on the Beastmen here, Cor-Dum included.
 
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[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
[X] ACTION: Politely ask Morghur to be granted entrance into Karak Dum.

So has anyone considered calling out to Morghur in Khazalid and politely requesting to be allowed entrance into the Karak as Loremaster of eight peaks and representative of the Karak Ankor, instead of trying to sneak in? From what we can tell from the interaction between Morghur and Borek, Morghur is not completely insane and appears to have ties of some sort to Karak Dum and might even be able to understand Khazalid. Mathilde also has the Rune of Valaya's Vengeance which should prevent any mutations from incurring Morghur's full attention. Sure there's a chance of horrible death and mutation but that's kinda to be expected.
 
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1) Does Morghur? seem to be aware of the Expedition? There's been a lot of mention throughout the arc of how UN-stealthy these landships are.

He came out and yelled at it when it arrived.

2) How long have we been standing here goggling at this scene? We've been watching long enough to determine that he's worshipping Dum, so long enough that the Beastmen? could sally and mess with us if they were inclined to do it, yeah?

Long enough for Borek to reach it, and for Snorri to shimmy his way forward. There's not really much cover for them to approach under cover, but they could have charged if they were so inclind.

3) Are there any Dwarves about to go Slayer (hope not but), or Knights who are rethinking their job choices? Could we ask a Knight to trade their mount now for a fief in K8P, and then get the Ambers to send the wolf/gryph/dwarf as a scout?

These people tend to be less 'this animal is a useful tool with a finite value' and more 'this animal is the BESTEST CUTEST SWEETEST puppy/kittybirb ever' except even more so because they fight alongside it and it's probably saved their life at some point.
 
Two points:

1) Y'know how we are wondering how there could be non-illusionary beastmen all the way up here, the forest amid a desert of bones and missing mountains? Well, we know for a fact that there's a in-between step in the creation of a Herdstone that has it being usable but not corrupted. If Dwarf!Morghur was allowed to tap into that to literally summon beastmen and impose a domain-like area around Dum itself, likely preventing it from suffering the same fate as the other mountains and allowing for the beastmen forest to grow around it, then Dum could very well be unassailble until this Morghur is killed again.

2) If we want a way to talk with Borek, and I know this is kind of cheeky but bear with me, we could shout for him to allow us to pay our debt back to him. We owe him money. As long as he answers with anything at all, we can jumpstart the conversation from there.

[X] THEORY: Omegahugger
 
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These people tend to be less 'this animal is a useful tool with a finite value' and more 'this animal is the BESTEST CUTEST SWEETEST puppy/kittybirb ever' except even more so because they fight alongside it and it's probably saved their life at some point.
So maybe if we were to teach them how to bring their friends back to life...
 
It doesn't explain the shame. The level of shame involved in working with Wood Elves does not at all line up with the sort of shame and secrecy Borek has been exuding.
I don't know, I think Elves and Beastmen are about equally shameful in the Dwarvish mind.
So now Borek leaves Karak Dum, which notably was still part of a mountain range at this point, to make sure help actually arrived for the oncoming Chaos Storm. Probably with a tearful goodbye from Morghur, because that's how fiction rolls.
Not-Morghur: "Big... bro... ther..."
Borek: "I'll be back, Nina. I mean Morghur. I mean, uh, some good Dwarvish name I, as Borek, would definitely know. Norhuk, maybe."
 
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum is fallen, and has made a pact with Morghur.
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum has somehow tricked or compelled Morghur to fight the Kurgan tribes.
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum has turned to forbidden arts, and Borek left in shame.
[x] [THEORY]: There are no dwarves to save. Either the "Cor-Dum" we saw is somehow fake, in which case the dwarves hold the place, and need no help holding it; Cor-Dum is real and allied somehow with the dwarves, in which case the dwarves are not worth our trouble as they have allied with chaos; or Cor-Dum is real and conquered Karag Dum, in which case there are no dwarves left to save.

[X] ACTION: Turn back
 
Fog billows out from your staff and hands and mouth and eyes, pouring forward to embrace the terrain ahead.
Several times you have to put out spot fires on your robes as the Runes on your Belt purge errant Dhar, and you're starting to worry what it would mean for anyone else to wield magic here.
and now for the real mistery.
What do the other wizards think about the fog-shrouded Mathilde that keeps spontaneously erupting into flames? :V
 
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum is fallen, and has made a pact with Morghur.
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum has somehow tricked or compelled Morghur to fight the Kurgan tribes.
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum has turned to forbidden arts, and Borek left in shame.
[x] [THEORY]: There are no dwarves to save. Either the "Cor-Dum" we saw is somehow fake, in which case the dwarves hold the place, and need no help holding it; Cor-Dum is real and allied somehow with the dwarves, in which case the dwarves are not worth our trouble as they have allied with chaos; or Cor-Dum is real and conquered Karag Dum, in which case there are no dwarves left to save.

[X] ACTION: Turn back

If Morghur is real or not and if Karag Dum has fallen or not is irrelevant. There's what looks to be a beastman lord that breaks reality hanging out in front of the mountain of Karag Dum, which is in the middle of the Chaos Wastes. The Karaz Ankor will declare them lost regardless.
 
First, Beastmen are born from Humans. Not Dwarves. That's how beastmen were created, that is how they work.
What makes you so confident that this remains true in Divided Loyalties?

and now for the real mistery.
What do the other wizards think about the fog-shrouded Mathilde that keeps spontaneously erupting into flames? :V
Second-guessing themselves about whether the Lady Magister is just that mysterious, or deliberately showing off, or inviting them to come and ask and it'll be an Updog/Henway joke, I imagine.
 
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by the way for those saying Morghur isn't producing enough dhar, reread the opening description.
Wheels sink into sand as the Alriksson slows and then stops, your eyes locked on the figure as it tosses its head to and fro, sending energies arcing through the air with every motion. Most of what little you know of Beastmen comes from your former Master's stories, and what little he knew of Morghur was second-hand. He's supposedly been locked in an eternal war with Athel Loren that occassionally spills out to devastate some other part of the Old World. The only time you've really heard about him outside of those stories is in relation to the High Elves pursuing him through Bretonnia some centuries ago, which is part of why Karag Dum's warnings in the lead-up to the Great War Against Chaos were ignored.

Certainly reads like he's putting it out there.
 
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