Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- Finland
Or the best.
Finally someone to ask how the fuck do these runes work.
- Location
- USA
Except Waystones are basically giant batteries, right? From the narration, it seems Panoramia draws upon them all the time in K8P. Or is it only the Jade Order that can do it whenever they please?
- Location
- being near locations is my passion.
drug orgies
Yes, and she has actual experience doing to. Mathilde has never drawn power from a Waystone, to have her first attempt be some kind of esoteric channeling with a whole Karak on the line sounds far too risky to me.
Too Slaanesh. Beer orgies maybe.
Also, another thought I had had before I got this thought: Daemons vanish in days, right. You know what sorts of beings don't vanish, though?
Chaos Warriors.
And Chaos Dragons, Trolls, Giants, and Chaos Sorcerer Lords.
So... If there are any of those in Karak Vlag, and they are sent out after us (or even just remain in Vlag even after the Daemons vanish) it's going to be a bit of a fight.
On the downside, this would require Ranald going up far more directly against Slaanesh, so.
Well... What about trying to carry out a ritual to Ranald, on the site of Karak Vlag, then? "Ranald! Help us steal this Karak back from the enemy!" It's not a magical ritual (not per se, anyway). It is instead a religious ritual. Which we can do. As we've done it before. As a (effectively) lay-priest of Ranald.
[X] Ranald the Magician, and the Karak Waystone Caper
- Try doing something similar to what you did in Karag Yar; tap into the power coming from the waystones north of Karag Vlag... and channel it towards your God, Ranald. Maybe the removed energy will bring the Karak back, the same way as diverting or clogging it would?
- Alternatively; perhaps with Ranald getting all this extra energy, he can pull a Magician's sleight of hand, and make this Karak re-appear?
- Alternatively: try to do a Ranaldite ritual, to "steal" the waystone energy that the daemons are using to shift Karak Vlag. Doing a Ranaldite ritual around either a waystone, or around Karak Vlag, whichever it takes to be able to send power that way...
@BoneyM rewrote or edited it a bit. The overall idea is still the same though: "Try to see if Ranald can do anything here, if we play around with lots of energy and with stealing stuff that an enemy first stole for themselves..."
Just like the Waystone Clog has a significant chance of getting us killed, too. Probably not clogging the waystone (though frankly, that idea still does makes me nervous) but also when the Daemons come pouring out. It doesn't have a chance of Ranald getting hurt of course, but. We had the option of not choosing to use Ranald back in Karag Yar, too. We could have relied on magic, or on Kragg's belt. We chose not to do that. We chose to involve Ranald. So, why not choose to involve him again?
The difference is that none of the other options have a chance of powering our god up, either. Whereas this one might.
It's definitely a "high risk, high reward" option. But I like the potential payoff. And I'm willing to, eheh, gamble as the case may be.
Chaos Warriors.
And Chaos Dragons, Trolls, Giants, and Chaos Sorcerer Lords.
So... If there are any of those in Karak Vlag, and they are sent out after us (or even just remain in Vlag even after the Daemons vanish) it's going to be a bit of a fight.
In that case... hijack the power from Karak Vlag, rather than from a waystone north of Karak Vlag instead? There's a ritual or spell going on at Karak Vlag, so...
On the downside, this would require Ranald going up far more directly against Slaanesh, so.
Hm... It wasn't just that. It was because we... accidentally carried out a ritual.
Well... What about trying to carry out a ritual to Ranald, on the site of Karak Vlag, then? "Ranald! Help us steal this Karak back from the enemy!" It's not a magical ritual (not per se, anyway). It is instead a religious ritual. Which we can do. As we've done it before. As a (effectively) lay-priest of Ranald.
[X] Ranald the Magician, and the Karak Waystone Caper
- Try doing something similar to what you did in Karag Yar; tap into the power coming from the waystones north of Karag Vlag... and channel it towards your God, Ranald. Maybe the removed energy will bring the Karak back, the same way as diverting or clogging it would?
- Alternatively; perhaps with Ranald getting all this extra energy, he can pull a Magician's sleight of hand, and make this Karak re-appear?
- Alternatively: try to do a Ranaldite ritual, to "steal" the waystone energy that the daemons are using to shift Karak Vlag. Doing a Ranaldite ritual around either a waystone, or around Karak Vlag, whichever it takes to be able to send power that way...
@BoneyM rewrote or edited it a bit. The overall idea is still the same though: "Try to see if Ranald can do anything here, if we play around with lots of energy and with stealing stuff that an enemy first stole for themselves..."
Yes. It is dangerous.
Just like the Waystone Clog has a significant chance of getting us killed, too. Probably not clogging the waystone (though frankly, that idea still does makes me nervous) but also when the Daemons come pouring out. It doesn't have a chance of Ranald getting hurt of course, but. We had the option of not choosing to use Ranald back in Karag Yar, too. We could have relied on magic, or on Kragg's belt. We chose not to do that. We chose to involve Ranald. So, why not choose to involve him again?
The difference is that none of the other options have a chance of powering our god up, either. Whereas this one might.
It's definitely a "high risk, high reward" option. But I like the potential payoff. And I'm willing to, eheh, gamble as the case may be.
- Location
- Greece
See, that is how you know the dood is bad with probabilities.
Betting that 1 roll of a 1d1000 won't come up as a 1 is almost a sure thing. Betting that no roll among 3000 rolls would come up as a 1 is stupid.
Every day is a few rolls. The possibillity mut not be merely "extremely highly unlikely" for the plan to survive 200 years, it must be a few factors of probability lower than even that.
I think that much more investigation of arcane marks would be required, along with a lot more knowledge of the nature of the soul.
This proposal has the same danger of daemons trying to kill us, and probably means that Mathilde can't contribute to the defence of the Waystone location as she'll be busy mainlining magic into the Aethyr.
It's just a tremendously bad idea.
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- Location
- Washington
It even being high reward is an assumption that isn't necessarily true. A waystone has a lot of power compared to measly human wizards, but that doesn't mean that they have a lot of power compared to a god. The Great Mork Theft had a lot of power compared to Ranald at least because Mork is one of the two gods of one of the most prominent groups in the setting.
Asheram
Not quite altogether
- Location
- Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground
While true, we're stealthy enough to have snuck through Eshin territory, and strong enough to have soloed a Necrarch.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
... Oh. My. God. Crap. Crap. CRAP. I feel like kind of an absolute idiot for not thinking of this before, but. I don't know if anyone has suggested this before, but... ... Here's something that we actually have done before. And, a brief search of "Ranald" under poster:BoneyM to see if anyone has asked this of him...
... @BoneyM can we tap into the energy coming from a waystone north of Vlag, and channel it to Ranald?
I'm not sure of the best wording for this, and am thinking of going to sleep soon anyway, so here's a pre-emptive vote for it if you approve it.
[X] Ranald the Magician, and the Karak Waystone Caper
- Try doing something similar to what you did in Karag Yar; tap into the power coming from the waystones north of Karag Vlag... and channel it towards your God, Ranald. Maybe the removed energy will bring the Karak back, the same way as diverting or clogging it would?
- Alternatively as a secondary thing; perhaps with Ranald getting all this extra energy, he can pull a Magician's sleight of hand, and make this Karak re-appear?
As a potential secondary point: can Mathilde channel the energy to Ranald, and ask him to try to make the Karak appear into the waste? i.e. Both sending him the power, and asking him to perform a miracle with that power? Ranald, my man, my main god, my Magician... perform your best reverse-Vanishing Man act, and make this Karak reappear!
Oh my god. Guys. Guys.
What if this works? What if we could to this? What if we could get another shot at empowering Ranald?
Furthermore... This isn't exactly like the ritual-in-progress we interrupted last time. Because we aren't going directly into the heart of the Karak and trying to steal the energy. No. We are just interrupting a step north of the Karak, and trying to tap into energies being relayed by the Waystones.
We're not hijacking an enemy ritual.
We aren't messing with and clogging up a waystone.
We are, admittedly, channeling a lot more energy than a wizard normally would be comfortable with... But. We've done it before. So we have something like a proof of concept that it works.
Furthermore, because this isn't a clog, but is sending the energy to a friendly divinity... that means that no bad side-effects can form, like dhar accumulation from the waystone clogging, over time.
Hooooly crap.
I want to do this. Not only does this avoid clogging a waystone.
But it is really clever and cool. It builds on something we did before. It repeats or echoes an epic deed we did before. And, it has another chance at empowering Ranald again...
... Furthermore. Imagine this.
Imagine this as Ranald the Magician -- pulling a Vanishing and Reappearing act, on a Karak. "Do you see this Karak? I'm going to make it... reappear."
Alternatively, he can think of it as stealing a Karak from Slaanesh. If he wants to think of it this way. Though, that's only in the secondary/part two of this; the first part is just "Steal the energy." The second part is "And if that don't work... uhhh... maybe try using the stolen energy to steal the Karak back from Slaanesh?"
Hooooly moly.
I so want to do this.
Yes, there's risk to Mathilde from this... but.
This is literally an epic deed of magic and sleight of hand and trickery. This, if anything, could legitimately get us "Ranald the Magician" again. And not just the mundane magician who does magic tricks; but the magic-using magician, who uses magic.
C'mon, posters. Who doesn't want to try to pit Learning and Piety against an evil force of darkness?
Also: we have the Protector Coin right now. Maybe Ranald can do something with that. That is, if this works out, maybe the credit for it will go to both Mathilde and Ranald.
Meaning that Ranald could get even more divine power from this. Because the Dwarfs will believe that Mathilde, and Ranald, truly acted selflessly to save them all. (Ranald the Dwarf-friend aspect when?)
There is a stark difference between passing divine energy of one god to another and passing what is the eight winds of magic to Ranald. For one thing you're asking Mathilde to channel all the winds of magic through her soul. This is a bad bad no good terrible idea, we've not even experimented with using Ulgu tongs to work a step removed from our soul and you're basically asking us to go "Hey you know all that experimenting with Ulgu touching other winds that was to dangerous to my mind to even experiment with lets skip all that and just channel those winds of magic right through us, what could possibly go wrong."
Your excitement and passion is well appreciated, but this is hardly the place to run this kind of experiment when we haven't even tried baby steps ulgu tongs.
Waystones aren't batteries they're more like power lines, power lines that are carrying eight distinct separate types of energy each one of which needs to be channelled by either a high elf or eight different wizards. The Cryston option should be doomed to failure for the same reason, he can only draw the Ghyran out of the waystone unless he has some other method of making the waystone node route to another node. He's not going to be able to channel the magic of the waystone node out all on his own.
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- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
I thought of a way to improve the chances of the Dolgan sticking to their side if the deal. Have Mathilde personally lead a raid on the first group of people we encounter that are hostile to the Dolgan. The Protector will then translate that as an action of pure good will towards them due to their status as valued trading partners, generous hosts, kindred spirits or some other of the few handful of interpretations that explain Mathilde going out of her way just to do them a favor while asking nothing in return.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
All I'm saying is, that's basically this.
"A Grey wizard?"
*Notices belt and sword*
"Mathilde Weber the Grey wizard?!"
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Whether the same constants can result in different amount of time in the materium is a question it would take some truly creative testing to determine. If I did roll for that, it would be off-screen.
Shifting enough solid rock to make a difference would take either a lot of time or a stupendous amount of firepower.
@BoneyM curious about the validity for the idea of barricading the once entrance to the Karak Vlag. Could the dwarves mine stone and axe tree's and try to barricade the sport where the entrance once stood?
If not could we just bomb the enterence? sort of imagining it like this in the picture if i get this thing to work.
Would such suggestions be viable? Could we convince the dwarves to barricade the Karak?
Karaks have multiple exits to prevent this exact tactic from being used against them. Blocking that entrance would just force them to use other ones, and the Expedition doesn't know where those are.
Daemons speak a language creatively known as Daemonic, and the languages of most beings that serve Chaos is descended from that so there's enough mutual intelligibility to get by. There's a chart of the languages of the setting in the Collection of Important Information threadmark.
Currently it's restricted to the Wizards under Mathilde's authority and the members of the Expeditionary Council.
Presumably not, since the Dwarven population didn't start shrinking until the Time of Woes.
Perhaps, but it seems extremely likely that Morr would object to the attempt.
Mugging Mork was turning Mork's godly power into Ranald's godly power, which didn't require any wrestling with the nature of what 'godly power' actually is. Attempting to turn Winds into Ranald's godly power is a different matter, and it would require a lot more knowledge of the metaphysics of the Winds and the Warp and Gods to be able to even begin to speculate. But it does seem logical that if it was that simple, it would have been independently discovered a bunch of times by now and it would have quickly spread amongst the faiths of the Old World. It also stands to reason that if Mathilde tried it and it turned out to not be possible, it would go very badly for her.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Regarding the theory that Gazul's ritual is responsible for the low birth rate... Jesus Christ I hope not.
Like, there are problems we can solve, but telling the Dwarfs to end their ages-old rituals that they see as protecting them from a world actively hostile to their existence isn't something we can accomplish, or that I'd want to. If Gazul's ritual is responsible, then everything we've done is suddenly much more pointless, because the Dwarfs have no hope of ever recovering, not if we retook every Karak and Karag in the WEM and all Dwarfs everywhere went about their days whistling and skipping along.
And I really don't think it makes sense, given that I see no reason why it wouldn't have been the same during the Golden Age.
I think a Karaz-Ankor wide depression makes much more sense, and we already have an explicit example at work- Kazador, with his 20 kids and cheery disposition.
Like, there are problems we can solve, but telling the Dwarfs to end their ages-old rituals that they see as protecting them from a world actively hostile to their existence isn't something we can accomplish, or that I'd want to. If Gazul's ritual is responsible, then everything we've done is suddenly much more pointless, because the Dwarfs have no hope of ever recovering, not if we retook every Karak and Karag in the WEM and all Dwarfs everywhere went about their days whistling and skipping along.
And I really don't think it makes sense, given that I see no reason why it wouldn't have been the same during the Golden Age.
I think a Karaz-Ankor wide depression makes much more sense, and we already have an explicit example at work- Kazador, with his 20 kids and cheery disposition.
Boi's got legs for days.
Asheram
Not quite altogether
- Location
- Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground
So the easiest way to beat the population decline is to get away from the Karaz Ankor? Sounds legit.
Without knowing too much about Warhammer, can we learn Daemonic? And would it be a good idea to do so?
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
If it was true, the Dwarf population would never even start growing, as there would be static number of souls. That makes no sense, so i think we are fine. No, all that the dawi need is bit more hope, and bit less dour. I am actually seriously hyped for the distant possibility of getting back at least Vlag, if not Dum (which is seriously lost, because i don't think living in chaos wastes is conductive to even dwarf health).
The worst thing is its probably not even wrong.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
It would almost certainly be possible, and an extremely bad idea.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
As said, bad idea. Anything associated with chaos has varying degree of cognito and corruption hazard plus a chance to draw attention of one or more of the Four. The safest bet is to only ever touch chaos with tip of our big sword. And even that isn't really safe.
Dark Tongue is a language one step removed from Daemonic, and it's what Daemonologists and Chaos Cultists use. It stands to reason that if there was nothing stopping them from learning Daemonic, they'd be using that instead.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
There are very few good reasons why you want to know Daemonic and there are fewer good reasons how you learned it.
This isn't Magic the Gathering, having a demonic tutor in your deck isn't a good thing.