Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Oshha · Jul 9, 2020

[X] They can make up for the loss in trade

vsh · Jul 9, 2020

[X] They can make up for the loss in trade

Boney · Jul 9, 2020

Carcer said:
would it be possible in the future to have an action so that the humans stop f##k with the slaans?

Probably not. Their tastes in architecture and statuary tends to involve a great deal of gold and jewels.

HanEmpire · Jul 9, 2020

Carcer said:
would it be possible in the future to have an action so that the humans stop f##k with the slaans?

The only way to do that is to stop all private ownership of ocean-going ships, and no Emperor is going to do that. Plus if the Imperials stop going to the New World then it'll be Bretonnians and Tileans that start poking the Slann instead. Hell even the Cathayans like to loot Lizardmen cities.

EDIT: Eshined

Enerael · Jul 9, 2020

Why the lizardman even allow their cities to be lootable is beyond me. No garrison? No wards? No extremely deadly enchanted fauna and/or flora seeded around the ruin to munch on thiefs?

NSMS · Jul 9, 2020

Enerael said:
Why the lizardman even allow their cities to be lootable is beyond me. No garrison? No wards? No extremely deadly enchanted fauna and/or flora seeded around the ruin to munch on thiefs?

Lizardmen obey the Slaan without question, and basically do nothing without their direct orders. This is a problem for them, as the Slaan are all near-permanently asleep.

MonkeyTypewriter · Jul 9, 2020

BoneyM said:
As far as I can tell, the purpose was to grab all the Elven merchant-adventurer idiots poking the Slann and dump them on a complete other continent so they'll stop poking the Slann, Godsdamnit.

Side question: Does the treaty forbid them from trading from the Eonir? Because that sounds really odd.

Boney · Jul 9, 2020

MonkeyTypewriter said:
Side question: Does the treaty forbid them from trading from the Eonir? Because that sounds really odd.

No. The Eonir are not part of Ulthuan, and there's no mention of them in the treaty.

LilyWitch · Jul 9, 2020

NSMS said:
Lizardmen obey the Slaan without question, and basically do nothing without their direct orders. This is a problem for them, as the Slaan are all near-permanently asleep.

Ehhh. *wobbles hand* Skinks and Saurus at least are cannonically sophonts. Kroxigors are more difficult to tell but Total warhams goes with them being sophonts as well. They are loyal to the Slaan but, particularly skinks and kroxigor, do have their own lives and culture. The skinks made a whole new god in Sotek.

MonkeyTypewriter · Jul 9, 2020

BoneyM said:
No. The Eonir are not part of Ulthuan, and there's no mention of them in the treaty.

Technically the Eonir are part of the Old World though. The way you described that treaty seems to indicated that the Asur can only trade with the Asari and Eonir through Mariangburg.

Dutch · Jul 9, 2020

Deathbybunnies said:
it is not at all clear that the Elves even have a defensive treaty of any kind with Marienburg - it is entirely possible that their spellcasting aid last time was them seeing an easy win and helping an ally out when they weren't obliged to

"- Be it known among all peoples for all time: that the Merchant Houses of Westerland are named the exclusive agents of the Elfs of Ulthuan for all goods of the New World brought to the Old.
- that the Elfs of Ulthuan agree to provide aid both military and magical to this Barony of Westerland in time of war.
- that the Elfs of Ulthuan shall be Our exclusive agents for the sale of the goods of the Old World in the New.
- that, in return for such considerations, We, Baron Matteus van Hoogmans of Westerland, Baron of Marienburg, First Sea Lord of the Empire, etc., etc., do grant to the High King of Ulthuan perpetual sovereignty over the islands of Geldern, Zeeburg, Oranjekoft, Rijksgebouw, Vlotshuis and Westerleer, there to build houses for His people and a harbour for His ships, for so long as the terms of this treaty are kept.
-All this is done on the 17th day of Erntezeit, I.C. 2150, under the benevolent witness of Manaan, Sigmar and Haendryk."

King Arthur said:
How on earth did they swing that deal? Where does Ulthuan benefit? This is so lopsided it's actually amazing.

The relationship isn't at all one-sided. While Marienburg isn't required (so far as anyone knows) to give the Elves military aid, goods sent from Marienburg to the New World must travel on Sea Elf clippers. Given Marienburg's place as the commercial capital of the Old World and its near choke-hold over exports from the Empire and the East, Ulthuan has made a fabulous amount of money from the deal. Their regular patrols of the sea lanes between the two continents makes smuggling difficult, as does their habit of sinking all ships carrying contraband, seizing the goods, and then selling them through Marienburg. It also lets Ulthuan control all access to the New World. What they don't want the Old Worlders to find there is anyone's guess. There are political benefits for the High Elf Kingdom, too. The re-establishment of Sith Rionnasc gives them a window onto the affairs of the Old World, letting them keep a close watch on developments there. Though long separated from their kin in the Loren and Laurelorn forests, the High Elves, through the Sea Elf Exarch in Sith Rionnasc, have established themselves as patrons and protectors of their continental cousins. When the Grand Duke of Middenland a few years ago began to gather troops to enforce his claim to the right to farm portions of Laurelorn, a quiet word from Sith Rionnasc was enough to put the matter to rest. Whether the Wood Elves appreciate this concern is another matter.

I haven't really been keeping up with this quest in a long while, but kinda got drawn in when a discord mentioned the situation. Basically: They have an alliance, Marienburg is in it for the trade and guarantee of the independence. Ulthuan is in it due to imperialism, while it also allows them to effectively control a large chunk of the world's trade by using Marienburg as a proxy. It also gives them a place to dump all adventurous HEs.

Aranfan said:
What book is this treaty recorded in?

Sold Down the River.

Elftown (Elfsgemeente), while technically a part of Marienburg, is governed under Sea Elf law. By the Treaty of Amity and Commerce, all crimes involving Elves - even Wood Elves from the interior of the continent - fall under the authority of the Phoenix King of Ulthuan through his regent, the Exarch of Sith Rionnasc' namishathir. Similar to the Star Chamber , the Exarch claims authority over crimes committed by non-Elves against Elves, even if said crime happened in Marienburg proper. Sea Elf law is different to Marienburg's, more subtle in many ways, and many lawyers have found themselves entangled in it and their clients unexpectedly found guilty.

10ebbor10 said:
Could the Empire re-invent this Barony? They hold the title, I believe.

Magnus declared it defunct.

The Emperor, according to legend, prayed hard for several days and nights. In the end, he agreed and declared the Barony ceased, renaming it the Province of Westerland and placing the merchants in charge. All seemed to be in order, and things ran so smoothly that subsequent Emperors came to take Marienburg for granted and largely forgot about it

Orkus Majorkus · Jul 9, 2020

[X] No, but they could help break the blockade

I can see Mathilde making an "eh" gesture and say it could go either way with that or making the Empire pay up.

LilyWitch · Jul 9, 2020

Though the Grand Barons of Nordland like to press their claim to the Barony of Westerland and the Princedom of Marienburg. It doesn't tend to end well for them.

Boney · Jul 9, 2020

MonkeyTypewriter said:
Technically the Eonir are part of the Old World though. The way you described that treaty seems to indicated that the Asur cand only trade with the Asari and Eonir through Mariangburg.

They have to go through somewhere to reach them, as neither of them have ports. The treaty dictates that somewhere is Marienburg.

CedeTheBees · Jul 9, 2020

[X] No, but they would fight beside you

Deathbybunnies · Jul 9, 2020

Dutch said:
I haven't really been keeping up with this quest in a long while, but kinda got drawn in when a discord mentioned the situation. Basically: They have an alliance, Marienburg is in it for the trade and guarantee of the independence. Ulthuan is in it due to imperialism, while it also allows them to effectively control a large chunk of the world's trade by using Marienburg as a proxy. It also gives them a place to dump all adventurous HEs.

You got Eshin'd by WOG:

BoneyM said:
The Treaty of Amity and Commerce was signed with the Baron of Westerland and gave the Exarchate, Ulthuan's local representative, authority over Elf-related crime throughout the province of Westerland. It also declared that Marienburg was the sole port for import and export between Ulthuan and the Old World, promised to 'provide aid both military and magical to this Barony of Westerland in time of war', and handed perpetual sovereignty of several islands of Marienburg to the Exarchate. Its authority does not go beyond the borders of Westerland because it was signed with Westerland, not the Empire as a whole.

The complicating factor is the Barony of Westerland no longer exists, and hasn't since the Great War Against Chaos. The Treaty is the model for relations between Ulthuan and Marienburg, but it's not at all difficult to argue that it no longer applies, and Ulthuan has not given a straight answer on whether they consider themselves still bound by it. The treaty also didn't define the form the aid would take, and the wording of it does not necessarily commit Ulthuan to declare war alongside Marienburg.

TL;DR: Legal shenanigans mean it's sufficiently vague that the Elves can claim they're obliged to get involved if they want to, and that they don't have to if they don't want to.

Slamu · Jul 9, 2020

BoneyM said:
There's not a post in the thread I haven't read.

You have my condolences. There's more than a few posts in this thread I wish I hadn't, and I've skipped over a lot.

Ericwinter said:
How exactly does one grudge a mountain? Do they just keep shooting it until the whole thing crumbles, like we did with Drakenhof? Or just mine the whole thing out?

As I recall the story, there was a rockslide during a battle with orcs that turned a sure thing into a near thing. The dwarfs, sensibly, decided the mountain needed to pay for its transgressions and turned a peak into a gravel pit.

Xilentxium said:
Did the Empire send literally all of the Battle Mages to Sylvania? I can't remember

I believe it was more along the lines of 'Sylvania is a battle mage's playground until all the vampires are dead in the Empire' which means, among other things, if you have a single vampire in Nordland hiding out in the sticks it's still legal for terrifying avatars of elemental destruction to threaten Waldenhof by standing nearby mediating an argument between birds. "Please." The citizens pray. "Not another one."

King Arthur said:
If we really want to prevent a blockade .... then let's just go and burn some ships down. They can't use their navy to blockade us if they don't have a navy.

They don't need any ships to blockade the Empire; they have a chain across the Reik they can raise and lower.

King Arthur said:
Alternatively, who wants to follow up the metaphysical heist of the century where we robbed Mork and Gork for their metaphysical lunch money, with the literal heist of the century and just steal all of Marienburg's money.

Can't pay for mercenaries if you broke.

I like the sound of this. Go on another working vacation, set the coin to Night Prowler and just start nipping problems in the bud. No assassinations, but it sure would be a shame if the gatehouses housing the chain got introduced to S10 snickersnack and they couldn't repair it in time. Sure is fortunate that no one was in that naval dockyard when it mysteriously went up in flames.

...who wants to go loot the books from Baron Hendryk's? Or just put bounties on stealing books from them through the Ranaldite grapevine?

[X] No, but they could help break the blockade

Strange9 · Jul 9, 2020

Huh, fair points Poptart.

[X] They can make up for the loss in trade

WinterLantern · Jul 9, 2020

[X] No, but they could help break the blockade

I'm going with Empress's Ranald gambit forshadowing. Also, short term violence to prevent long term bleeding of empire and dwarf hold both.

Gotta rebreak the limb so it'll heal properly and such.

Orumon27 · Jul 9, 2020

[X] No, but they could help break the blockade
It's more a matter of time here. The longer this mess continues, the more likely some idiot in the empire screws it up. Time is of the essence, so resolving the overt political issues so people can quietly go along with it end forget the snarl is the best policy.

King Arthur · Jul 9, 2020

Slamu said:
...who wants to go loot the books from Baron Hendryk's? Or just put bounties on stealing books from them through the Ranaldite grapevine?

If you think about it, it really is our moral responsibility to go and steal those books.

If the violence to come where to hit the library so much knowledge could be lost forever. It would be irresponsible of us to not save the books before the Dawi and their giant monster cannons swing by.

Really, we are doing Baron Hendryk's a favor here. Much easier to rebuild with the library safe and intact and secure. They'll thank us one day.

REAPER35 · Jul 9, 2020

[X] No, but they could help break the blockade

Alliterate · Jul 9, 2020

Yeah, interesting arguments Poptart. Hopefully the blockade couldn't last five years+ because of the impacts on Marienburg itself.

[X] They can make up for the loss in trade

Exmorri · Jul 9, 2020

BurnNote said:
Did that actually work? If I was a elflish merchant-adventurer idiot, I'd take it as a challenge.
Plus, then you have less natural attrition, and so they might accumulate until they do something really dumb.

I imagine the idea is to not frame it as a challenge. You frame it in terms of here's a fractious Human Empire with lots of internal division and so much separation of powers it makes Montesquiuiuiu look like an autocrat, isn't this a great opportunity for elfish merchant-adventurer idiots? Ulthuan will subsidise the transport.

Ganurath · Jul 9, 2020

Exmorri said:
I imagine the idea is to not frame it as a challenge. You frame it in terms of here's a fractious Human Empire with lots of internal division and so much separation of powers it makes Montesquiuiuiu look like an autocrat, isn't this a great opportunity for elfish merchant-adventurer idiots? Ulthuan will subsidise the transport.

Probably doesn't hurt that it's a trade opportunity that puts the entirety of Ulthuan between the merchants and the dark elves.

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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