HanEmpire
Delicious
An infinitely superior alternative. The Dwarfs can't sink Ulthuan, the Slann can.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
What Invisibility Is For
- Location
- UK
"They've done quite well out of their partnership with Marienburg, and they're even less willing to give a straight answer than usual on the matter. So I put it to you - can the Dwarves be convinced to stop building the canal between the Aver and the Black Waters?" Graf Otto von Bitternach asked. Hopefully the Magister would be able to help, the situation was rapidly growing out of control and he really was starting to grasp at straws.
For a second Magister Weber paused, a... pecuiliar expression falling over her face, before she opened her mouth.
"One moment please."
Then she vanished.
Graf Otto von Bitternach, through long years of practise, managed to avoid showing any surprise, but he was very confused. What exactly just hap-
"REEEAAAARRGGGGHHHHAAAAHHHHH-"
Long years of practise failed him as he jumped at the sudden torturous shriek that filled the room, before a painting worth more than some streets levitated off the wall opposite him and proceeded to tear itself in two. Then the same happened to the one next to it. Then the sword attached to the wall besides that painting jerked before throwing itself across the room and impaling itself into his third favourite chair.
Focusing on remaining still, only succeeding due to the aforementioned long years of practise at politics, Graf Otto von Bitternach watched as various other pieces of ornamentation and furniture in the room appeared to turn on their fellows. He felt a single bead of sweat drip down his brow. Then the wall exploded as if a cannonball had torn through it and he felt himself involuntarily jump for the second time in months, and then the wall next to the opening that was previously a wall exploded next.
By the time the Great Chart spontaneously shattered into lots of little, very expensive pieces the building around Graf Otto von Bitternach was making very ominous noises, which he could only barely hear over the sound of his heart rapidly beating in his chest. Thankfully he had grown somewhat used to the pandemonium around him, so some of his focus could be diverted from remaining unmoving towards praying to Sigmar and cursing that the Empire didn't have a god of Not Having Buildings Collapse On Top Of You. He was sure Dwarfs would have someone to pray to for that.
Finally, it stopped, and after some dozen seconds the
"Don't worry about it, the Dawi have the Empire's back!"
Graf Otto von Bitternach smiled.
"Thank you for your wisdom Magister Weber."
He managed, through long years of practise, to walk away at only a slightly increased speed compared to his norm.
He hated dealing with Grey Wizards.
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[X] No, but they could help break the blockade
- Pronouns
- It/They
The dwarves cannot sink Ulthuan yet.
I'm sure if you got enough rune lords and engineers together to work on the problem for a couple of centuries they could figure out a way.
King Arthur
The Once and Future King
I think literally every Dawi Deity has that as at least a minor domain.
- Pronouns
- It/They
Ahhh so mathildes internal conflict symbolizes the threads debate.
excellent symbolism my friend!
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
[X] No, but they could help break the blockade
I feel like being a bit aggressive here. I really don't think that the Elves will be willing to pick a fight with dwarven navy over this, and common non magical wooden ships are hilariously outgunned by ironclads. The cost of sending such a fleet so far will likely be lesser than the cost of making up the loss in trade to the dawi and far less for the Empire.
The primary cost of this option, the (small I believe) chance of conflict with the elves aside, is that the dwarven fleet will be busy for the time, leaving the seas and coasts more dangerous.
I feel like being a bit aggressive here. I really don't think that the Elves will be willing to pick a fight with dwarven navy over this, and common non magical wooden ships are hilariously outgunned by ironclads. The cost of sending such a fleet so far will likely be lesser than the cost of making up the loss in trade to the dawi and far less for the Empire.
The primary cost of this option, the (small I believe) chance of conflict with the elves aside, is that the dwarven fleet will be busy for the time, leaving the seas and coasts more dangerous.
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Okay. Wild idea. How viable would getting the Mariaburg elves to ask the Ten to reconsider be? I know they aren't a major power in the territory, but they are the primary importer right?
Grungi the miner, and Valaya the defender of the hold. First for building, second when someone is trying to tear it down.
They already tried, and the elfs are playing aloof (for elfs!)
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Guile
Having a really great time right now
Bribing, sure, no denying a lot of people can't see beyond the end of their own nose. But do you really think if the Elector Counts get angry enough at loss of revenue they'd take it out on the dwarves? Seems a lot more likely that the Elector Counts would go off the reservation and launch another attack on Marienburg, the place that is imposing all these economic sanctions that are draining their coffers.
Free islands and diplomatic immunity at the cost of maybe having to do something someday, if they feel like it and can't argue their way out of it.
And the day an elf can't argue a human around to whatever they want to do is the day he turns in his pointy ears and takes up digging holes for a living.
When the fleet arrives there will propably an unlimatum to lift the blockade or the Dwarfen dreadnoughts will do it for them, this will be an obvious oppertunity for Marienburg to reconsider.
Do The elves have any significance territory within The Empire outside of The Port City?
These Elves don't.
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
That would be the logical, diplomatic thing to do... if they were not elves.
In Warhammer, elves are hard to deal with. Much less as a smelly monkey. Their arrogance is ridiculous, and is not even their only issue.
See the War of the Beard for an example of a mind blowingly stupid diplomatic fuck up, Mathilda could have done better.
Perhaps this is the plan and our recommendation merely a contingency, though I doubt that. But if this was not even considered, it is not because Empires diplomats are idiots.
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HanEmpire
Delicious
Do they still claim the Eonir as being part of the Phoenix King's domain?
So after a lot of thinking, while if it comes down to what we actually do I would prefer the Trade option for the reasons previously stated.
But in terms of what I think the dwarves would actually do and what I think is the better negotiating position I think blockade is the better option. I.e. I am fine with threatening Marienburg with dwarven displeasure, but leery of actually bringing that hammer down due to potential conflict with the elves (though BonyM's recent post does mollify that concern a lot).
However I do not see Marienburg trying to stand its ground as while the canal will reduce their profits they will still be fabulously wealthy due to being Ulthuan's only port of trade on the continent. Furthermore the dwarves getting involved is a no win situation for Marienburg as if the elves do not help them they get their shit pushed in and if the elves do help it makes them ground zero for a great power conflict, both are catastrophically bad for Marienburg. I also think Marienburg was under a misapprehension as to what the dwarves would do so they did not account for this, so it should be enough to get them to not do something incredibly stupid.
[X] No, but they could help break the blockade
But in terms of what I think the dwarves would actually do and what I think is the better negotiating position I think blockade is the better option. I.e. I am fine with threatening Marienburg with dwarven displeasure, but leery of actually bringing that hammer down due to potential conflict with the elves (though BonyM's recent post does mollify that concern a lot).
However I do not see Marienburg trying to stand its ground as while the canal will reduce their profits they will still be fabulously wealthy due to being Ulthuan's only port of trade on the continent. Furthermore the dwarves getting involved is a no win situation for Marienburg as if the elves do not help them they get their shit pushed in and if the elves do help it makes them ground zero for a great power conflict, both are catastrophically bad for Marienburg. I also think Marienburg was under a misapprehension as to what the dwarves would do so they did not account for this, so it should be enough to get them to not do something incredibly stupid.
[X] No, but they could help break the blockade
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Been a while since I voted here.
Let's be clear: a naval war would be a massive, crushing victory for Barak Varr and the Empire.
Marienburger ships cannot harm dwarven warships, while the opposite is not only untrue, but reversed -- I trust I do not need to reiterate the quality of dwarven gunnery for this audience. Marienburger mages would face hardened targets with magical and anti-magical support of their own. The elves have no reason to take this fight, and dozens not to. Logistics and speed are not really factors in this campaign, either.
The naval war would be an inevitability, not a risk. It seems likely that there is a reason why the option for it does not even imply the possibility of failure.
[X] They can make up for the loss in trade
And yet. War is never a decision to be made lightly, particularly when the same aims can be had without it. Marienburg is still quite a large city right on the Empire's borders, and there are ways to address this that do not rely on cannonading. What is the source of Marienburg's wealth? It's not the products of world trade. Marienburg alone is not consuming every crate from Ulthuan to Araby that enters their ports. They're barely consuming a fraction of it. No, their wealth comes from passing it along to the Empire. Their wealth -- the only source of their power, or even their survival! -- comes from that flow. Cutting that flow is them holding onto a rope with one hand, suspending the Empire over a bottomless pit with the other, and threatening to let go unless the Empire stops trying to find handholds.
If that flow stops, their money stops. Their city stops. At least the Empire has an economy that isn't, "Pass these things along to those Imperial dogs down the Reik." A blockade is utterly unsustainable for them -- if it were sustainable, they wouldn't have threatened it, they would have led with it. What, do they envision relations getting worse? The only reason they have for restraint is incapacity. Threatening without acting only weakens the threat -- the bite is more fearsome than the fear of it, as they certainly well fear. This is a desperate threat from desperate people trying to keep their trump card from turning into the two of clubs. What are they going to do when their economy shudders to a grinding halt? Start a war? Wars are expensive, and their captive market, by their own actions, will have just...vanished.
Oh, sure, ending the blockade would be diplomatically disastrous, but this is the game Marienburg chose to play. Stake your country on trade, and you enslave your country to trade. Just because they're suddenly aware of the guillotine blade doesn't mean that they can dodge after locking themselves in.
And if somebody really wants to reconquer Marienburg, give it a decade after the flow of trade reroutes to the new canal, if it's really so important to have them back once they're no longer so exclusively valuable. Personally, I say let them have their swamp if it's so valuable to them, but if reconquering them is really desired, it can be done once they're no longer rich enough to make it painful.
The blockade is an empty threat and can be ignored until it dissolves. This can be resolved without a single shot fired. The dwarves stockpile for centuries. Let's ask them to uncork some of that stuff, instead of asking them to commit to a war.
Let's be clear: a naval war would be a massive, crushing victory for Barak Varr and the Empire.
Let's be wildly generous to Marienburg and assume that they are not fielding 16th-century warships fit for inland seas -- as they most certainly are. Let's assume they're fielding Age of Sail ships of the line fit for the open ocean. In fact, let's assume that their entire navy is comprised of clones of the HMS Victory. Fine warship. 18th century. They don't have it, or any single piece of technology that was aboard it. Let's assume they do anyway.
Let's assume that Barak Varr is fielding only the shittiest ironclad ever to sail to sea -- the Gloire, first ever, a French warship that actually was only iron-sheathed over a wooden hull. They aren't -- we know they aren't, they wouldn't stand for it -- but again, let's assume.
The single heaviest weapon on the HMS Victory was a 32-pounder cannon, built to 18th-century specifications. The Gloire had 4.7 inches of iron armor. It was tested to be proof against 68-pounder shells. From Britain. At 19th-century specifications, a full gunpowder charge, and 65 feet.
Marienburg's navy -- hell, Marienburg's shore emplacements -- have not the slightest ability to cause a single dwarven warship even a moment of concern. They might kill a crewmember who decides to stick his head out a hatch. Again, this with incredibly generous assumptions that we all know don't hold. Should the Dwarven navy steam, the Marienburger navy is decoration.
Now, there are, naturally, mages. Sure! Multiple sources note that dwarven ironclads are runed out the ass and heavily resistant to magic. The Empire, meanwhile, has its own mages. The Battle Mages are in Sylvania, yes, but there are non-Battle mages who might nevertheless be deployed, and many, many more of them than even so massive a city as Marienburg has. It would be a threat, but not an unaddressed one, and frankly it doesn't seem significant.
Then there are the elves. They may intervene. As Boney notes, they are not obligated to. I personally don't think they would. Why would Ulthuan sail into a stupendously messy war with both the Empire and Barak Varr for the sake of Marienburg's profits? They have the forever war against Chaos to attend to, and even with their colossal spellpower advantage, against a target they can't otherwise scratch and is specifically hardened against magic, it would be a big and costly investment of resources. Why do something that burns so many bridges with so many powers that otherwise reliably point at least nominally in the right direction, at such great cost, for so little benefit? Of course, they'd probably rather Marienburg live, which is likely why they're ominously hinting that they're considering all options, but really, what gain is on the table that could justify the cost of them joining? What gain that might actually make them commit? What, do elves strike us as wishy-washy? They project uncertainty if they want you to feel uncertain. No other reason.
Perhaps the ironclads cannot reach Marienburg, or perhaps they are too slow to force a battle. Again, no -- the lore apparently has regular voyages all the way to Lustria, and I doubt Boney would write an option that would result in, "And thus the dwarves of Barak Varr said, 'Sorry, ye daft umgi lass, we can't do it.' Please re-do the previous vote and bury me in salt." As for speed, it might be relevant, but the target of the strike would be fixed. You cannot reposition a city. This ignores, of course, the fact that ironclads were always as fast or faster still than their sailing counterparts IRL, but these ones use paddlewheels, in apparently the sole concession to supposed dwarven conservatism in a design otherwise a dozen or more obsolescences ahead of all of its contemporaries, so they can be slow. Doesn't matter when the Marienburger Navy must force the dwarves away from a fixed point.
Let's assume that Barak Varr is fielding only the shittiest ironclad ever to sail to sea -- the Gloire, first ever, a French warship that actually was only iron-sheathed over a wooden hull. They aren't -- we know they aren't, they wouldn't stand for it -- but again, let's assume.
The single heaviest weapon on the HMS Victory was a 32-pounder cannon, built to 18th-century specifications. The Gloire had 4.7 inches of iron armor. It was tested to be proof against 68-pounder shells. From Britain. At 19th-century specifications, a full gunpowder charge, and 65 feet.
Marienburg's navy -- hell, Marienburg's shore emplacements -- have not the slightest ability to cause a single dwarven warship even a moment of concern. They might kill a crewmember who decides to stick his head out a hatch. Again, this with incredibly generous assumptions that we all know don't hold. Should the Dwarven navy steam, the Marienburger navy is decoration.
Now, there are, naturally, mages. Sure! Multiple sources note that dwarven ironclads are runed out the ass and heavily resistant to magic. The Empire, meanwhile, has its own mages. The Battle Mages are in Sylvania, yes, but there are non-Battle mages who might nevertheless be deployed, and many, many more of them than even so massive a city as Marienburg has. It would be a threat, but not an unaddressed one, and frankly it doesn't seem significant.
Then there are the elves. They may intervene. As Boney notes, they are not obligated to. I personally don't think they would. Why would Ulthuan sail into a stupendously messy war with both the Empire and Barak Varr for the sake of Marienburg's profits? They have the forever war against Chaos to attend to, and even with their colossal spellpower advantage, against a target they can't otherwise scratch and is specifically hardened against magic, it would be a big and costly investment of resources. Why do something that burns so many bridges with so many powers that otherwise reliably point at least nominally in the right direction, at such great cost, for so little benefit? Of course, they'd probably rather Marienburg live, which is likely why they're ominously hinting that they're considering all options, but really, what gain is on the table that could justify the cost of them joining? What gain that might actually make them commit? What, do elves strike us as wishy-washy? They project uncertainty if they want you to feel uncertain. No other reason.
Perhaps the ironclads cannot reach Marienburg, or perhaps they are too slow to force a battle. Again, no -- the lore apparently has regular voyages all the way to Lustria, and I doubt Boney would write an option that would result in, "And thus the dwarves of Barak Varr said, 'Sorry, ye daft umgi lass, we can't do it.' Please re-do the previous vote and bury me in salt." As for speed, it might be relevant, but the target of the strike would be fixed. You cannot reposition a city. This ignores, of course, the fact that ironclads were always as fast or faster still than their sailing counterparts IRL, but these ones use paddlewheels, in apparently the sole concession to supposed dwarven conservatism in a design otherwise a dozen or more obsolescences ahead of all of its contemporaries, so they can be slow. Doesn't matter when the Marienburger Navy must force the dwarves away from a fixed point.
Marienburger ships cannot harm dwarven warships, while the opposite is not only untrue, but reversed -- I trust I do not need to reiterate the quality of dwarven gunnery for this audience. Marienburger mages would face hardened targets with magical and anti-magical support of their own. The elves have no reason to take this fight, and dozens not to. Logistics and speed are not really factors in this campaign, either.
The naval war would be an inevitability, not a risk. It seems likely that there is a reason why the option for it does not even imply the possibility of failure.
[X] They can make up for the loss in trade
And yet. War is never a decision to be made lightly, particularly when the same aims can be had without it. Marienburg is still quite a large city right on the Empire's borders, and there are ways to address this that do not rely on cannonading. What is the source of Marienburg's wealth? It's not the products of world trade. Marienburg alone is not consuming every crate from Ulthuan to Araby that enters their ports. They're barely consuming a fraction of it. No, their wealth comes from passing it along to the Empire. Their wealth -- the only source of their power, or even their survival! -- comes from that flow. Cutting that flow is them holding onto a rope with one hand, suspending the Empire over a bottomless pit with the other, and threatening to let go unless the Empire stops trying to find handholds.
If that flow stops, their money stops. Their city stops. At least the Empire has an economy that isn't, "Pass these things along to those Imperial dogs down the Reik." A blockade is utterly unsustainable for them -- if it were sustainable, they wouldn't have threatened it, they would have led with it. What, do they envision relations getting worse? The only reason they have for restraint is incapacity. Threatening without acting only weakens the threat -- the bite is more fearsome than the fear of it, as they certainly well fear. This is a desperate threat from desperate people trying to keep their trump card from turning into the two of clubs. What are they going to do when their economy shudders to a grinding halt? Start a war? Wars are expensive, and their captive market, by their own actions, will have just...vanished.
Oh, sure, ending the blockade would be diplomatically disastrous, but this is the game Marienburg chose to play. Stake your country on trade, and you enslave your country to trade. Just because they're suddenly aware of the guillotine blade doesn't mean that they can dodge after locking themselves in.
And if somebody really wants to reconquer Marienburg, give it a decade after the flow of trade reroutes to the new canal, if it's really so important to have them back once they're no longer so exclusively valuable. Personally, I say let them have their swamp if it's so valuable to them, but if reconquering them is really desired, it can be done once they're no longer rich enough to make it painful.
The blockade is an empty threat and can be ignored until it dissolves. This can be resolved without a single shot fired. The dwarves stockpile for centuries. Let's ask them to uncork some of that stuff, instead of asking them to commit to a war.
No. After High King Gotrek Starbreaker killed Phoenix King Caledor II, the next Phoenix King, Caradryel the Peacemaker, ordered all Elves to leave the Old World to return to Ulthuan, both to aid in its defence and to prevent the possibility of any continuation of the War of the Beard. Those that remained are no longer subjects of Ulthuan.
- Location
- Greece
Mathilde is a bad example, she is only bad in comparison with diplo advisors, super diplomats, and the more competent grey magisters.
The average 12 year old could do better.
kfrar
Aspiring Encyclopedia
I mean, I don't think the EC's are going to purposefully spite the Karaz Ankor or anything, but the ones who are already militarily committed might be willing to agree not to participate in the canal-based trade network if it'll get Marienburg to stop throttling them.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/They
...Ten merchant houses, four high priests, and a rector makes fifteen, an odd number. I don't suppose they have a lot of ties to break, do they? 🤔
In case anyone is absent or abstains, I suppose.
Honesty, it always good to win favor with another God. Manann would be a good pick anyway for the trade along waterway.
