Remove ads

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
Reader mode
Glau said:
What is her motivation, right now?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
She grew up a peasant and after awakening to magic learned her parents did not want her.
BoneyM said:
He nods. "The other Orders, no doubt, fill this moment with pomp and ceremony. But we are the Grey Order. Our work is rarely seen and even rarer appreciated. Temper your expectations accordingly. A job performed well needs to be its own reward, for we so rarely see any other."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I personally think she took those words of Algard as a challenge.

She is ensuring she goes down in history.
She at least managed a few lines in Stirland's history book. (League, Drakenhof)
She got herself a chapter at least with K8P in dwarven history books.
More will come.
 
Let's look at this list DragonParadox gave. It's certainly not comprehensive, but it can be used as an example pretty well.
  1. Doing her job - This is Fun. Fulfilling one's responsibilities feels Nice. You get to be proud of how good you are and stuff.
  2. Improving her skills which makes her more likely to both advance professionally and stay alive - This is Fun. Self Improvement feels Nice. Being able to do a triple backflip or something when you couldn't before is a great feeling.
  3. Studying magic and pushing the boundaries of the art. - This is Fun. Magic is awesome. It's just as good as painting or pie contests, except it lets us do other cool things too. Writing papers about what we studied sucks, but that's homework, not the activity itself.
  4. Working towards the betterment of the Empire and Karaz Ankor as a moral duty - This is Relaxing. Starting to worry about something scary, and then calming down because you know you've already taken care of it is nice.
I'm just not seeing this interpretation of 'Mathilde is a stress-driven worrier who is traumatized because she thinks people only love her for what she does, not what she is, so she's always compulsively working to keep their eyes on her'.

Why isn't 'She just likes doing this' good enough?
Glau said:
What is driving her to do more? And not just more, as in, continuing, but more as in discarding her sucesses and spoils in favor of newer, crazier heights to climb?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
How are we discarding our successes or our spoils, anyways? (What spoils? Do you mean money? Money is for spending).
 
picklepikkl said:
I'd square this circle by allowing certain Social Turn actions to affect background narrative things, like "hang out with two characters, who might become friends," but I'm not the QM here.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm pretty sure that's already a thing. If we consistently hang out with someone, then our relationship will be different, and that will impact the narrative when it comes to them. The statement of "doesn't have any effects" is likely more to prevent people from gaming the system for extra actions, so there aren't any direct tangible effects. Like, it won't save you from a bad roll, but it might change the failure mode. If we had a bad roll for "get something from Kragg", then 'normal' would be "Kragg in disapproval until you leave", but since we hung out with him a bunch, it's more something like "Kragg is busy hiding from Thorek".

Hmm, trying to hammer the social actions for a character to improve the relationship for some gain would probably also not fly, because then there's reason for people to game that.

So TL;DR: Social actions can affect the narrative, but don't try to game this, just vote for whoever you like.
 
Last edited:
What is this argument even about? There's always more to be done. Personally, I'm all for doing some self-improvement regularly because there's no reason for Mathilde to not improve herself. You can always be better tomorrow then you are today.

I'm down for some grand deeds, like researching the secrets of the Waystones, taking more holds. Maybe one day we could give Malekith a run for his money in competition to be the true avatar of ulgu.

And rereading, I think Boney originally meant for social actions to have no mechanical benefits but that seems to have fallen by the wayside to further the narrative.
 
Last edited:
Since people asked. Out of personal preference I dropped the AV votes, I'm just not attached to that project, but I've also made options that drop Staff Turning instead. @Glau @ReImagined

[X] Plan: Skavenslayer with Less Vague Artillery+Panpan-Staff
-[X] MAX: Receive dictation.
-[X] JOHANN: Write a paper: Ratling Gun mechanism and countermeasures
-[X] DUCK: Spend time with Hubert to try to ensure a good relationship between him and magic, and between him and his identity as a Wizard.
-[X] DUCK: Panoramia's about ready to test for Magister, but she's putting it off because she doesn't have a lot of free time to prepare. Work with her to help make the most of every spare minute.
-[X] EIC: Lend the services of the Hochlander, and the EIC's intelligence and contacts, to Roswita to help track down the Talabeclanders buying peat from the vampires.
-[X] Attempt to create a network of anti-air artillery emplacements, featuring runed artillery, personal/Altar scale enchanted items to provide accuracy buffs, and a small reserve of specialist runed ammunition for the hardest targets.
--[X] Suggested artillery runes: Rune of Accuracy/Flakksson's Rune of Seeking for precision, Rune of Penetrating for damage
--[X] Suggested buffs: Trial and Error, Second Portent of Amul (not necessarily at the same time)
--[X] Specialist bolts: (Master) Rune of Dragonslaying/Demonslaying, Rune of Cleaving, Rune of Striking
--[X] COIN: The Gambler
-[X] Attempt to interest a prominent and knowledgeable Runesmiths in the interaction between Runes and Vitae. (will start at the top and work your way down)
-[X] Dictate papers:
--[X] Queekish-Reikspiel Dictionary, including spoken Low Queekish
--[X] Insight on Skaven tactics and strategy
-[X] PENTHOUSE: Have a tower built atop Karag Nar
-[X] SERENITY: Write a paper: Brief observations on Eshin Sorcery

[X] Plan: Fight Dragon with Dragon+Panpan-Staff
-[X] MAX: Receive dictation.
-[X] JOHANN: Write a paper: Ratling Gun mechanism and countermeasures
-[X] DUCK: Spend time with Hubert to try to ensure a good relationship between him and magic, and between him and his identity as a Wizard.
-[X] DUCK: Panoramia's about ready to test for Magister, but she's putting it off because she doesn't have a lot of free time to prepare. Work with her to help make the most of every spare minute.
-[X] EIC: Lend the services of the Hochlander, and the EIC's intelligence and contacts, to Roswita to help track down the Talabeclanders buying peat from the vampires.
-[X] Commission an altar based on (boosted) Transformation of Kadon.
--[X] Able to transform non-wizards.
--[X] Optimized to reduce destructive consequences in case of miscast.
--[X] Can only be activated by a Dwarf not currently being transformed.
--[X] Can only be activated with one of three keystones.
--[X] Transportable but heavy and unwieldy enough that even the resulting dragon can not just carry it away.
--[X] COIN: The Gambler
-[X] Attempt to interest a prominent and knowledgeable Runesmiths in the interaction between Runes and Vitae. (will start at the top and work your way down)
-[X] Dictate papers:
--[X] Queekish-Reikspiel Dictionary, including spoken Low Queekish
--[X] Insight on Skaven tactics and strategy
-[X] PENTHOUSE: Have a tower built atop Karag Nar
-[X] SERENITY: Write a paper: Brief observations on Eshin Sorcery

[X] Plan: Skavenslayer with Less Vague Artillery+Panpan-AV
-[X] MAX: Receive dictation.
-[X] JOHANN: Write a paper: Ratling Gun mechanism and countermeasures
-[X] DUCK: Spend time with Hubert to try to ensure a good relationship between him and magic, and between him and his identity as a Wizard.
-[X] DUCK: Panoramia's about ready to test for Magister, but she's putting it off because she doesn't have a lot of free time to prepare. Work with her to help make the most of every spare minute.
-[X] EIC: Lend the services of the Hochlander, and the EIC's intelligence and contacts, to Roswita to help track down the Talabeclanders buying peat from the vampires.
-[X] Attempt to create a network of anti-air artillery emplacements, featuring runed artillery, personal/Altar scale enchanted items to provide accuracy buffs, and a small reserve of specialist runed ammunition for the hardest targets.
--[X] Suggested artillery runes: Rune of Accuracy/Flakksson's Rune of Seeking for precision, Rune of Penetrating for damage
--[X] Suggested buffs: Trial and Error, Second Portent of Amul (not necessarily at the same time)
--[X] Specialist bolts: (Master) Rune of Dragonslaying/Demonslaying, Rune of Cleaving, Rune of Striking
--[X] COIN: The Gambler
-[X] Travel to the Grey College and attend lessons there: Staff Turning
-[X] Dictate papers:
--[X] Queekish-Reikspiel Dictionary, including spoken Low Queekish
--[X] Insight on Skaven tactics and strategy
-[X] PENTHOUSE: Have a tower built atop Karag Nar
-[X] SERENITY: Write a paper: Brief observations on Eshin Sorcery

[X] Plan: Skaven Knowledge Bomb+Panpan-AV
-[X] MAX: Receive dictation.
-[X] JOHANN: Write a paper: Ratling Gun mechanism and countermeasures
-[X] DUCK: Spend time with Hubert to try to ensure a good relationship between him and magic, and between him and his identity as a Wizard.
-[X] DUCK: Panoramia's about ready to test for Magister, but she's putting it off because she doesn't have a lot of free time to prepare. Work with her to help make the most of every spare minute.
-[X] EIC: Lend the services of the Hochlander, and the EIC's intelligence and contacts, to Roswita to help track down the Talabeclanders buying peat from the vampires.
-[X] Build a new tower with anti-dragon capabilities
--[X] Capable of the spells Lightning Storm for direct damage, Curse for debuffing hard targets, and Second Portent of Amul to buff gunnery (see below)
--[X] COIN: The Gambler
-[X] Create artillery emplacements with appropriate runic augmentation to supplement the new tower
--[X] Suggested runes: Rune of Accuracy/Flakksson's Rune of Seeking for precision, Rune of Penetrating for damage
-[X] Dictate papers:
--[X] Queekish-Reikspiel Dictionary, including spoken Low Queekish
--[X] Insight on Skaven tactics and strategy
-[X] PENTHOUSE: Have a tower built atop Karag Nar
-[X] SERENITY: Write a paper: Brief observations on Eshin Sorcery

[X] Plan: Fight Dragon with Dragon+Panpan-AV
-[X] MAX: Receive dictation.
-[X] JOHANN: Write a paper: Ratling Gun mechanism and countermeasures
-[X] DUCK: Spend time with Hubert to try to ensure a good relationship between him and magic, and between him and his identity as a Wizard.
-[X] DUCK: Panoramia's about ready to test for Magister, but she's putting it off because she doesn't have a lot of free time to prepare. Work with her to help make the most of every spare minute.
-[X] EIC: Lend the services of the Hochlander, and the EIC's intelligence and contacts, to Roswita to help track down the Talabeclanders buying peat from the vampires.
-[X] Commission an altar based on (boosted) Transformation of Kadon.
--[X] Able to transform non-wizards.
--[X] Optimized to reduce destructive consequences in case of miscast.
--[X] Can only be activated by a Dwarf not currently being transformed.
--[X] Can only be activated with one of three keystones.
--[X] Transportable but heavy and unwieldy enough that even the resulting dragon can not just carry it away.
--[X] COIN: The Gambler
-[X] Travel to the Grey College and attend lessons there: Staff Turning
-[X] Dictate papers:
--[X] Queekish-Reikspiel Dictionary, including spoken Low Queekish
--[X] Insight on Skaven tactics and strategy
-[X] PENTHOUSE: Have a tower built atop Karag Nar
-[X] SERENITY: Write a paper: Brief observations on Eshin Sorcery

[X] Plan: Skavenslayer with Less Vague Artillery

[X] Plan: Skaven Knowledge Bomb

[X] Plan: Fight Dragon with Dragon
 
Last edited:
chocolote12 said:
Eh, IC conforms to OOC, and OOC most people apparently find fun in the high-effort things. Like, assassinating a college full of evil battle mages takes a lot more effort than, say, teaching Wolf how to speak, but there's a reason we always end up going for one of those things and not the other.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Ironically enough, everyone will vote for high effort if it is someone else putting out the effort. This is, I think, my main problem with most quest protagonists- they HAVE to have personalities that support themselves (*other people) loading absolutely as much work as possible onto them and still be self-consistent. It is very limiting, in the end. Not many authors do it even approaching well.

DragonParadox said:
Rather one is known by one's deeds which are attained by greater skills.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The contradiction between this and the grey college's ethos are, I think, deliberate. It will prevent the secret police from getting positions of real authority outside their org. But we've kinda sidestepped that, so...

chocolote12 said:
How are we discarding our successes or our spoils, anyways? (What spoils? Do you mean money? Money is for spending).
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The success and the spoils are the creation of a new city, a new community, in this location. We've pretty much excluded ourselves from the Karak Nar society by being all grey-wizard and mysterious - drinking with people doesn't count if we are invisible. We are pretty much excluded from most dwarf socializing by being not-dwarf.

We have avoided the spoils of the new silk trade, not taken our boon, sunk all of our improvements into our personal fortress.

It just feels like all of the green shoots we helped create, we are avoiding. I mean, we could be living in Altdorf and attenting council meetings once a month for how much difference it would make to the rest of the people in the Karak. Instead of being an integral part of a one of the only flourishing multi-racial societies ever, like Panoramia, Hubert, and even Adela are.


Edit: approval voting

[X] Plan: Fight Dragon with Dragon+Panpan-AV

[X] Plan: Fight Dragon with Dragon
 
Last edited:
There's plan that has us making our own dragon to fight our battles in the ultimate expression of Warhammer Pokemon, and it's not winning?

Yes Mr. Witch Hunter, this thread right here.

[X] Plan: Fight Dragon with Dragon
 
Glau said:
That's fair- but loneliness is a risk factor for death almost as high up there as smoking. It is pretty stressful and bad for you, assuming it falls below threshold. I'm reading you as saying your threshold is pretty low- but I'm reading Mathilde's as being higher. (and more off-screen than on, given things like the book club and friendship with Edda that were presented onscreen as fully formed, with months of background.)

I'm also reading Mathilde as coming from trauma due to her parents and the constant background of 'you have to be good enough or you will be kicked out' that exists in the colleges and in the intrigue advisor role. Knowing that people who should love you and be your greatest defenders can and will ditch you as soon as you do something wrong, plus never being in a situation after that where failure doesn't lead to the loss of all her social contact... Like the new Van Hal demonstrated so well.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Loneliness is absolutely a killer. The effects are actually similar to other things like hunger and poverty. But I don't particularly think she is lonely. There's a lot of people that respect her, and quite a few that like her. The fact that fully formed relationships are presented is for me an indicator that she's doing just fine and actively making friends/being social.

For me, her trauma manifest more as attention seeking. She's spectacularly unsubtle for a Grey Wizard. Like, a knighthood? Mind, I also think that she's mostly put the childhood trauma behind her, and the effects are now mostly just facets of her character. Abelheim's death was definitely traumatic, but I think she's dealt with that as well (in the short term by finishing his goal, and then later by succeding with Belegor in his impossible goal, and also helping out/saving Roswita).

I don't get where you get "succeed or get kicked out" from. That's not how the colleges operate (see perpetuals). And after the first few turns, it would've taken more than one or two failures to get kicked from the advisor position (and if you keep fucking up, then you'll be fired from every job). And it's not like she was abandoned by everybody. When Regimand learnt of her failure that got her snake hunted, he didn't abandon her. He was miffed, and worried, but he immediately offered help. Her parents abandoned her, but I think she put that down to "They never really loved me". Also, 'failure' didn't lead to the loss of all social contacts for her. Anton quit his job for her, and Wilhelmina nearly did. The only close friends she lost were the ones who died. She left Stirland by her own choice (and there were plenty of options to stay).
I think that here and now is actually going to be very hard for Mathilde if she gets introspective. She isn't going to lose her people in the Karak. She isn't going to get kicked out, almost regardless of what she does next. So, with those fears that drove her work ethic increasingly laid to bed, what is she doing? Why is she doing it? What would actually make her happy?

It's like the 'sucess' version of the same existential crisis that lead her to signing up with Belegar in the first place. Except this time it isn't failing and having nothing left to do after- it's succeeding and having nothing left to do after.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
As mentioned above, I just don't see 'losing her friends' or 'getting kicked out' as fears that are particularly relevant to her character. And I don't see them being the driver of her work ethic either.

She clearly enjoys magic, she's proud of being a wizard (which I do think is a reaction to her childhood abandonment). I do think she enjoys research (though not so much writing it up). Also, having a positive impact on the world. She's succeded, and now she gets to continue doing stuff she enjoys. I really don't see where there would be an existential crises in that.
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
There's plan that has us making our own dragon to fight our battles in the ultimate expression of Warhammer Pokemon, and it's not winning?

Yes Mr. Witch Hunter, this thread right here.

[X] Plan: Fight Dragon with Dragon
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I'm not convinced by this mad dragon copying scheme at all, but I can't argue against that logic.

[X] Plan: Fight Dragon with Dragon+Panpan-AV

[X] Plan: Fight Dragon with Dragon
 
Glau said:
The success and the spoils are the creation of a new city, a new community, in this location. We've pretty much excluded ourselves from the Karak Nar society by being all grey-wizard and mysterious - drinking with people doesn't count if we are invisible. We are pretty much excluded from most dwarf socializing by being not-dwarf.

We have avoided the spoils of the new silk trade, not taken our boon, sunk all of our improvements into our personal fortress.

It just feels like all of the green shoots we helped create, we are avoiding. I mean, we could be living in Altdorf and attenting council meetings once a month for how much difference it would make to the rest of the people in the Karak. Instead of being an integral part of a one of the only flourishing multi-racial societies ever, like Panoramia, Hubert, and even Adela are.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I mean, I'm sympathetic to this, I've been arguing since the creation of social turns that we should be investing most of our effort into K8P people. But honestly it sounds to me like you would be happier if social turns were removed, or rather integrated into normal turns, so that our socializing with people shows up within the narrative of the turn's actions instead of in isolated vignettes after the fact. Or if we had been Steward, rather than Court Wizard, and thus more directly integrated into community-building and the fate of the Undumgi; our position as Loremaster is kind of inherently isolating because our work is weird wizard work that mostly involves other specialized personnel.

Fundamentally, I don't really think that your preferences can be addressed at the voter level; to see Mathilde integrate more with the Karak would require a shift in how turns are structured and how Mathilde's interaction with others are written. Options for shaping the culture of Karag Nar just aren't there.
Andmeuths said:
Sigh, let's go for it:

[X] Plan: Fight Dragon with Dragon

Romancing the dragon, here we go.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Me being a buzzkill: Mathilde is one of the only people who couldn't be transformed into a dragon, so this does not aid her romance.
 
[X] Plan: Fight Dragon with Dragon+Panpan-AV

[X] Plan: Fight Dragon with Dragon

o_O This sounds like interesting times. May Mathilde live in those.
 
Glau said:
The success and the spoils are the creation of a new city, a new community, in this location. We've pretty much excluded ourselves from the Karak Nar society by being all grey-wizard and mysterious - drinking with people doesn't count if we are invisible. We are pretty much excluded from most dwarf socializing by being not-dwarf.

We have avoided the spoils of the new silk trade, not taken our boon, sunk all of our improvements into our personal fortress.

It just feels like all of the green shoots we helped create, we are avoiding. I mean, we could be living in Altdorf and attenting council meetings once a month for how much difference it would make to the rest of the people in the Karak. Instead of being an integral part of a one of the only flourishing multi-racial societies ever, like Panoramia, Hubert, and even Adela are.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Your posts keep coming back to socializing as if doing anything else somehow isn't enjoying ourselves. I recognize that a desire to interact with other characters is something that some people feel is important, which is why plans contain those voting options, but there's this implication in your posts that if we're not taking as many as we can we're somehow traumatized and lonely, and I really can't argue with it because it's so far out of left field that I can't understand where you're coming from.

Also, unless you're repeating a previous point with a new description, the 'spoils of the new silk trade' are spider friendships, which we have indulged in, so that's not quite accurate.
 
To be clear, dwarves can't turn into dragons right? If we do those, and I assume for the second portent to buff gunnery, they'd be for the undumgi?
 
Last edited:
ReImagined said:
I'm not convinced by this mad dragon copying scheme at all, but I can't argue against that logic.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm pretty sure this isn't the most effective option, but it's certainly the most wizardly, and isn't that what Belegar wanted?

Oh, no. Do you think the diseases has jumped species? Do you think Belegar has... the Wizard Chic?
picklepikkl said:
Me being a buzzkill: Mathilde is one of the only people who couldn't be transformed into a dragon, so this does not aid her romance.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I will never believe you viscous liestruths.
 
BurnNote said:
Her parents abandoned her, but I think she put that down to "They never really loved me".
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

You make a solid argument. I think I disagree with this though- going through something like that is going to create a bone-deep fear of re-occurance, and situations that echo it are going to be a lot harder to get through for someone with that background than others.


chocolote12 said:
Your posts keep coming back to socializing as if doing anything else somehow isn't enjoying ourselves. I recognize that a desire to interact with other characters is something that some people feel is important, which is why plans contain those voting options, but there's this implication in your posts that if we're not taking as many as we can we're somehow traumatized and lonely, and I really can't argue with it because it's so far out of left field that I can't understand where you're coming from.

Also, unless you're repeating a previous point with a new description, the 'spoils of the new silk trade' are spider friendships, which we have indulged in, so that's not quite accurate.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I'm attempting to represent a viewpoint that says social actions in a normal turn are worth just as much as research or self-improvement. I don't think those things lack defenders, so pushing solely for more social is a way of balancing thread discourse.

So I guess you can read the reducto ad absurdum into my concerns about Mathilde's mental health, but it seems a lot like accusing the people who don't push self-improvement of wanting to die on a foe's blade, or the people who aren't interested in AV research or wanting to stay ignorant of everything forever. It's a rhetorical tactic that is effective, but it is effective by misrepresenting what was actually said.
 
Last edited:
Parzival95 said:
To be clear, dwarves can't turn into dragons right? If we do those, and I assume for the second portent you buff gunnery, they'd be for the undumgi?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Haven't you ever heard of Fafnir?

... No, I don't care that it was a giant in some versions nor that it is not at all related to Warhammer, it's an important part of fantasy dragon history!
 
BurnNote said:
I will never believe you viscous liestruths.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Look, I'm not supporting Fight Dragon With Dragon, but if someone wants to vote for it because they think turning a person into a dragon in order to fight off the Karak's airborne enemies is awesome as shit I'm not gonna argue against it. By all means, chase plans because they're awesome as shit. That is totally valid. But if someone is under the misconception that we could use the transformation ourself to turn Mathilde into a dragon, so she can fly up to Karag Zilfin under her own power, dragon-sized book clutched in her forearm, to shyly look up at Sparklebutt through her nictitating membranes and ask if it would like to study together, having to lie close to it so they can both read from the book at the same time, only to have Sparklebutt absently stretch its wings and then settle one around her while she frantically tries to figure out what to do with her tail...

Sorry, lost my train of thought there. Point is, can't transform Mathilde. It's a no-go. If that's someone's end-goal, better to disappoint them now.
 
Last edited:
picklepikkl said:
Look, I'm not supporting Fight Dragon With Dragon, but if someone wants to vote for it because they think turning a person into a dragon in order to fight off the Karak's airborne enemies is awesome as shit I'm not gonna argue against it. By all means, chase plans because they're awesome as shit. That is totally valid. But if someone is under the misconception that we could use the transformation ourself to turn Mathilde into a dragon, so she can fly up to Karag Zilfin under her own power, dragon-sized book clutched in her forearm, to shyly look up at Sparklebutt through her nictitating membranes and ask if it would like to study together, having to lie close to it so you can both read from the book at the same time, only to have Sparklebutt absently stretch its wings and then settle one around her while she frantically tries to figure out what to do with her tail...

Sorry, lost my train of thought there. Point is, can't transform Mathilde. It's a no-go. If that's someone's end-goal, better to disappoint them now.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It could give Mathilde some time to look at the Dragon transformation with her own Magesight, which will probably make it easier if we want to try to replicate it or something similar with Ulgu.

This also benefits all other romance routes because turning into a dragon is a universal charm point.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Voting is open
Remove ads
Back
Top