Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
[X] Remain silent
[X] Gambling
[X] Hold a Ranaldan religious service
[X] Yes to Shenanigans
Adhoc vote count started by Alliterate on Sep 24, 2019 at 12:23 AM, finished with 682 posts and 208 votes.
 
"Hey someone was struck by lightning from out of a clear sky and walked it off, this is important information we need so spread around so we can develop appropriate anti bolt-from-the-blue tactics"

That's what this argument boils down to.

I can see where you're coming from but you took a wrong turn to get there. Because all though you can indeed say that, it's not true at all.
 
...

what?

No, I mean, seriously, what? I'm using a metaphor here pointing out how the Mork possession thing required a series of events that are virtually impossible to replicate, and acting like it's something we need to warn people around by pointing out a similarly absurd series of events that everyone can dismiss.

Like, you're saying "Yeah I get what your'e saying here but you took a wrong turn because you didn't speak an absolute truth", what does that even mean? Does that mean I can't use arguments outside of pure, unleavened logic? When half the reason we're at each other's throats right now is because half the players have one interpretation of the facts and the other half disagree?
 
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Personally I just, really don't see any benefit to telling Belegar anything more than what we already have (and even that I was iffy on and didn't vote for); we've told as much as we can reasonably be sure of, anything else is entirely speculation which we have no good reason to think of as being relevant, useful, or helpful to reveal. Here's what happened; we snuck up on a heretical Orc performing a ritual to one of the Orc gods and wrecked his day something fierce, got briefly possessed by the other orc god and saw some questionable visions of things we can't actually verify were even real, then threw caution to the wind and gambled our life, soul, and chosen deity and heisted a portion of the Orc gods power for said chosen deity which thus might've weakened the aforementioned Orc gods.

Belegar knows about the first and second pieces, doesn't know anything about the middle bit, but does know our thoughts on the last part. Belegar is not any sort of expert on magic, even Dwarf magic, nor is he any sort of authority on the divine, his reaction to being told all of the middle bit is likely to range somewhere between "that's a fascinating story, doesn't change anything I have to do right now" to "WHY ARE YOU TELLING ME ANY OF THIS, LITERALLY NONE OF IT HELPS, AND IN FACT IT ALL MAKES ME QUESTION WHY I EVEN BROUGHT YOU." If we want to verify the truth of our brief vision considering the creation of the Black Orcs, why would we go directly to the Dwarf King we are currently developing pretty good relations with? We know dwarves are touchy about all sorts of things, why would this be any different? Especially when we're implying a dwarf might've had something to do with creating Orcs. Assuming this is actually something we want intelligence on, it should wait until after the current phase of the expedition is completed and we can take what scraps of pertinent clues from the vision to make subtle inquiries far far away from here. With people we don't want to continue having a good working relationship with.

As for Kragg, we barely know him and he seems to barely tolerate us. While it would be an absolute treasure trove to be able to pick his brain on the subject of magic in general, Mathilde has no reason to trust that he will trust us farther than he can throw us. We were just possessed by one of the gods of the dwarves racial enemy, our soul literally hurt from it, and people are talking about just blurting this out to a guy we only kind of know who doesn't have a high opinion of us. Maybe, maybe, at some future date if we somehow manage to get Kragg to actually like us and buddy up to us or something it might make sense to broach the topic of this entire ordeal with him; after we've already done some digging on our own to work out some of the finer details. Frankly we don't actually have much to tell either of them at the moment except a very weird story that doesn't exactly put us in great position.

All in all, personally, it just doesn't make sense for Mathilde to tell them.
 
...

what?

No, I mean, seriously, what? I'm using a metaphor here pointing out how the Mork possession thing required a series of events that are virtually impossible to replicate, and acting like it's something we need to warn people around by pointing out a similarly absurd series of events that everyone can dismiss.

Like, you're saying "Yeah I get what you're saying here but you took a wrong turn because you didn't speak an absolute truth", what does that even mean? Does that mean I can't use arguments outside of pure, unleavened logic? When half the reason we're at each other's throats right now is because half the players have one interpretation of the facts and the other half disagree?

I'm not at anyones throat. If you think I'm arguing with anyone then it's on you, and I can't blame you for that since writing doesn't convey the nuances of what I'm trying to say. And I'm probably not writing everything I want to say becasue I forget too or think I am but I'm not.

I get that you're saying that it was a completely freak accident. However you left out two very important facts. 1) Mork threw that lightning on purpose and aimed it directly at the largest body of water that would do the most damage (i'm not happy with this metaphor but it's the only one I can think of that builds on the original lightning reference). 2) these are Warhammer Dwarfs. For an example on what this means, a mountain once dropped an avalanche on a bunch of dwarfs, or caved in on them or something along those lines. They put this mountain in their book of grudges and won't rest until they've torn it down. This is Canon.

To you and me this is absolutely crazy, because obviously this is just a freak accident. To Warhammer Dwarfs this is the right and proper thing to do, the mountain will pay for every drop of dwarven blood it spilt.
 
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I'm honestly not sure if this line of argument is ooc for Mathilde or not. What would common knowledge on dwarf grudges be, and how common is the knowledge that the empire is declining largely due to grudges? IE, how likely is it for a stirlander mostly on the outside of the grey order's info networks to know that not giving a dwarf info on a grudge is an act of mercy?
It's not ooc: we talked at length about it with Durin.
 
"WHY ARE YOU TELLING ME ANY OF THIS, LITERALLY NONE OF IT HELPS, AND IN FACT IT ALL MAKES ME QUESTION WHY I EVEN BROUGHT YOU."
That's really not in the cards; he acknowledged that our contributions towards the expedition were incalculable in the last update. You could argue the possibility of him being upset, but not in that specific manner; he'd be more likely to listen politely, say some variant of 'ok', and try to get us checked out, because whatever we did against that Shaman must have knocked us for a loop.
 
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[X] Remain silent.
[X] Join the hunting with Maximilian
[X] Cook with Panoramia and Titus
[X] Hold a Ranaldan religious service
[X] Telling war stories
[X] Gambling
[X] Yes to Shenanigans
 
Mathilde would get access to all the information that the thread is using to debate the issue, ideally. Spymistress digging into secrets. Please remember, we know a bunch, she doesn't. Because we were in her head when she saw the chaos dwarfs, and there was no recognition.
Okay and what do we actually gain from those information. Like, learning about chaos dwarfs isn't going to be beneficial for us and like some others have said, it is probably a touchy subject for the dwarves. In the case they don't know, it will just make Belegar and/or Kragg pissed, but they can't do anything about it since they got more important things to worry about (e.g. reconquering K8P). Also, Mathilde is currently not a spymistress for anyone. She came to the expedition to help the dwarfbros and let out some steam from Van Hal death. She is not here to dig secrets from the dwarves and that doing that is a bad idea in the first place considering dwarves attitudes toward their own secrets, something herself notes when talking to Johann. So, by trying to dig some information, what she will get is information that is not beneficial for her current situation and potentially alienating/annoying two of the most high ranked dwarves in this place.
 
You know I just realised that I'm probably approaching this vote from a meta viewpoint. Should I cross out my previous vote and post a new one or just go back and edit it? I'm kinda new.
 
Kragg is very much the star of today's events, and though part of you is a little peeved that nobody but Ranald is going to know the full extent of what you risked and what you achieved today, you can't deny how spectacular the display you witnessed was. And though it wasn't done in complete safety - anyone foolish enough to try to congratulate Kragg has been treated to a long and upset diatribe on the hairline fracture his Anvil has suffered and the many long hours of work it will take to return it to anything approaching a satisfactory condition - the dangers of it are, from what little you know of Runic magic and Anvils, entirely limited to those in the admittedly considerable blast radius of the Anvil itself. You mentally compare it with some of the way's you've seen magic gone wrong, like your long ordeal with the Thorned One and what that blithering idiot Sunscryer did when you needed him to- when he was needed at Drakenhof. In that light, you suppose there's a point to be had.
Mmm, a good eye to the details is important.
And ooo yeah its going to be a BITCH to work a fracture line out of a nigh indestructible anvil. Normally anvils are cast in a solid piece.

What I know of metals:
-Metals can merge together seamlessly at the contact point. This is normally prevented by the presence of air and any oxide coatings(gromril doesn't rust so thats either a big problem[following aluminium and titanium in forming an impervious oxide coating] or not a problem). Its a particular problem with metal tools in space, they all need plastic coating or your spanner WILL fuse to the nut you're wrenching.
-Molten metal bypasses the problem because it forms seamless contact but introduces a new problem, cooling metal forms different microstructures depending on how it cools, and if said structures don't line up exactly the same as the material next to it thats also a point of weakness.

I'm not sure which is harder, using runes to set up an artificial vacuum and fusing gromril powder of the right structure to the seam or using a dropper to apply molten metal and then quench it perfectly...but even with modern tech the answer is normally "melt the whole thing and recast".

Kragg does seem to be eyeing you strangely, though. His glare at you has always been disapproving, but not more so than his background level of disapproval when staring at a world that contains a declining Karaz Ankor, so you've never taken it personally. This type of attention is new and concerning to you, and you wonder if he has an inkling of what happened. You know that Dwarves cannot feel the Winds of Magic (though from that glimpse snatched from the mind of Mork, you wonder if that's truly universal) but those skilled in Runecraft are known to be able to sense magic almost backwards. All Dwarves are naturally slightly repellent to magic, and Runepriests are able to tap into and consciously control that repellence, primarily for the purpose of combating enemy magics. But they are also to be able to sense magic as whatever it is in their nature that repels magic does so, in the same way a man in armour could tell when a projectile ricochets off their armour, and with practice might learn to tell between a stone and an arrow and a bullet. Exactly how much they can sense is beyond what even the Grey College has been able to determine, but from Kragg's looks you think you can add a data point to those ongoing investigations.
Kragg: "I know something went down, it was bad to greenskins and nothing important exploded, the umgi isn't mutated, but hmph..."

The meeting comes to order, and opens with a toast to the fallen. Your own palate has only just started to grow beyond the point where you can identify what is and isn't ale, but to those with the taste for it the ale currently available is at best mediocre. It's the source of much grumbling, but the only alternative would be risking the 'good stuff' in a lengthy river cruise and an elongated underground wagon ride, so it's considered a necessary hardship.
At this rate we're going to be ruined for normal booze by the time we leave the expedition.
"Not how we saw the day going," King Belegar opens, to a round of agreements from all. "But we certainly rose to the occasion. Before we start studying, there's credit due and I'll not delay its payment. First, to the esteemed Runelord of Karaz-a-Karak, the thanks of Vala-Azril-Ungol for a display of Runic might of a calibre that I had thought lost to the ages." Again there is agreement, and Kragg's habitual frown twitches as he gives a single nod in response.
Kragg almost smiled. Almost.
"Second, to the dwarves of Karak Izor. They have believed enough in my Karak that many of their number are seeking to make it their home, and it is their eldest and wisest that have been where the fighting is thickest. Every lost Longbeard diminishes our race, and it is our duty not to let their sacrifice be in vain." A Khazalid murmuring you gather to be equivalent to 'hear, hear' rumbles from the Dwarves present.
*Salutes*
"Third, the siege engineers. Their numbers and their weapons hail from five different holds, but the craftsmanship of their actions today show them to all be carved from the same stone." Another rumble of accord.
Greenskin firing range is a very happy day for a siege engineer!

"And finally, and to my shame, most unexpectedly - the bravery of the line of men. All manner of Umgi answered my call to arms, but I never guessed them capable of receiving the charge of a maddened Waaagh with such fortitude. Their showing today would do credit to a line of Ironbreakers." You prevent an eyebrow from raising, knowing that the line of men had more than a little assistance in their actions, and instead of watching Codrin receive the praise for his men you're watching to catch the surly look Kragg shoots at King Belegar. Interesting.
Kragg didn't approve of giving the credit away, but I reckon Belegar did it because of his new trait: This praise WOULD be passed down to the men and they'd fight all the harder to keep up with expectations and pride.
"All that said," King Belegar continues, "the time is over for patting of backs and it is now time for tugging of beards. Master Weber, though your acts may never be part of the songs they'll sing of our battles, I have been finding it difficult to even begin to tally the number of Dawi lives your interventions have saved. Were you able to rival your work in Karag Lhune?"

If only you knew, you think. "If not rival, then at least add to that tally," you say. "The Black Orc Priest or Shaman that was attending to the Temple turned out to be the local leader, though I couldn't say for sure whether he was merely the Big Boss of Karag Nar or the Warboss of the entire Broken Toof Tribe. He was attempting an empowerment ritual for the Idol of Gork that was the shrine-"
Mathilde: *Kills a Warboss*
Also Mathilde: "I killed the local greenskin leader again, he's a shaman and there was a Gundam being fueled there."
"Of Gork and Mork," Ulthar corrects.

"In this case, just Gork," you respond, grateful that he'd inadvertently contributed to your partial truth. "That seemed to be a matter of contention for them, too. It seems the other of their Gods was objecting to being left out, and I was able to interrupt the Idol's empowerment just as their disagreement was coming to a head, and the power that Mork invested in trying to combat the Idol was lost - perhaps permanently - as the Idol shattered."

The looks you receive are sceptical, but Kragg's brow is crinkled in thought, and he speaks up after a moment. "It's not impossible," he concludes. "Carelessness and impetuousness are part of their nature, and there was a great deal of energy active in Karag Nar."

Silence stretches again as everyone reassesses. "Is that what provoked them?" King Belegar eventually asks.

"The timing is right," is your scrupulously correct response.
Everyone was skeptical until Kragg backed up our claims. But he's as much an expert on theology as its possible to GET.
"Well, we knew that the assault on Karag Nar might provoke a reaction," King Belegar says. "Perhaps not this much of a reaction, but there's never guarantees when dealing with the Grobi. Ulthar, how was your end of the scouting?"

"With the poison brewed by the Vornzhufokri, we were able to cause a good deal of infighting amongst those on guard," he reports. "However, the Black Orcs roused by the disturbances proved able to strike down the poisoned and restore order amongst the others. They were the obvious next targets, but many proved too alert to get a shot on them before the battle outside started and my Rangers withdrew."

Skaroki takes it from there. "Victory was won, but not cheaply. The enemy were able to barricade a series of choke-points that cut us off from the majority of the Karag, and without the time to seek another entrance or wear them down, it turned into a bloody battle, and as you know, casualties were highest amongst the most experienced."

"As events have shown, time was of the essence," King Belegar says grimly. "Once more, our thanks to Karak Izor." Skaroki nods in response, and heads turn expectantly to Codrin. "Now to the battle outside."
This is kind of weird really, Greenskins holding against a dwarf assault in a Karag is like opposites day.
"My archers," Codrin begins immediately, "will atone for their showing today."

Ulthar frowns. "Can't expect manlings to take it in stride when heaven and earth take a side on the battlefield."

"They are Stirlanders," Codrin responds. "Their ancestors kept their heads when the hungry dead snapped at their heels and the wind itself tried to tear the soul from their bodies. They will atone." None of these Dwarves are from Zhufbar or Karak Kadrin, so none have had to face the terrors of Sylvania, but they understand the sentiment and a series of understanding nods meet Codrin's words.
Right, as suspected, they got spooked by all the battle magic.
"More happily, the other forces under my command have done themselves and this Expedition proud. We received the greenskin charge without a single step back, and bloodied them for the attempt." Pride is clear in his voice, and you wonder at what long-term effects there could be of the Runic bolstering he had unknowingly experienced.
Good ones. He started with a ragtag bunch of misfits, pruned the troublemakers, and then they were hammered in battle and stood firm.

Its got the makings of a Company of Renown.
"That many trolls in one area cannot be living off moss and cave insects," Ulthar says. "The rock trolls do, of course, eat rock, but the common and river trolls would need live prey. Thaggoraki would eventually either fortify or retaliate if their forces were suffering constant heavy attrition, so the most likely possibility is that they're picking off Grobi. Needless to say, seeing them as their staple food would interfere with any attempts for the Grobi to enlist them."

"So we consider them neutral," King Belegar muses. "Remaining on guard against them, of course, but they'd be as much an obstacle to our other enemies as they would be to us. The threat would not be an assault in force, but individual trolls wandering out."

"And that's a threat that we can guard against," says Durin. "We've got forty bolt throwers, and I'm authorized to negotiate on behalf of Karak Norn should you wish to purchase our thirty for your long-term defences. A wall, or even just a palisade as it's only needed for early warning, and a series of towers or even just reinforced firing positions. By the time a troll's finished bludgeoning his way through the palisade the bolt thrower crews will be more than ready."
I'm wondering if the troll ecosystem isns't being sustained by greenskin fungi spawning goblin snacks constantly inside.
Strategically leave it be.
"Leaving only the Citadel until the Eastern Valley can be considered secure," King Belegar says. "Titus, how's the test farms?"

"Early days yet," the Halfling says, "but promising. A lot of our crops won't grow this far south but we've sent word back to Barak Varr for seeds from Tilea - we're about as far south as Luccini by my reckoning, and while we're not likely to get their rain, if we can find enough water to irrigate that won't matter. So it becomes entirely a matter of soil quality, and between the amount of corpses we've got for fertilizer and young Panoramia we should be able to make something of the Eastern Valley."
Think we'd need a blender and sterilizer to make the greenskins into fertilizer without further infesting the soil with their spores.
"All the more reason, then. The Citadel. Between the battering it received from Kragg and the bloodying we gave its residents, things have changed. No doubt it's been claimed by some up-and-coming brute but they won't be as established as the previous one. Less followers means less defenders, less familiar with the Citadel means less effective sentries. Thoughts?"

Nods and murmurs of agreement sound from most present, yourself included. "The Underway," Skaroki says bluntly. "Right now we can either defend Karags Nar and Lhune from below, or we can move into the Underway and defend the approaches from Kvinn-Wyr and Karagrin. Well enough. But the Citadel-"

"Aye, the Underway under the Citadel links the Sentinels to the Cavern of Stars at the center of the Karak. We'll need to defend it from below as well as from the caldera. But we'll fill the Citadel from ground to stars with Quarrellers and Thunderers, and we line the precipice to either side of the Citadel with every siege weapon we no longer need pointing inwards from the East Gates, and it won't take long for even the Grobi to catch on that the caldera means death. From that point the only real threat will be from below, and that's preferable to guarding the entire Eastern Valley from attack from a Citadel in Grobi hands."

"Will any object to extending the goals of the Expedition?" Ulthar asks.

"Will they?" King Belegar repeats. You shake your head, as do the Dwarves present, as do the Knights after the moment of thought. The subtler turn their eyes towards Codrin, those less so their entire heads, and he's looking thoughtful.

"Yesterday," he says slowly, "I would have been less sure. But today those under my command have either victory to keep them warm or shame burning in their gut. Feed them well today and fill tonight with ale and song, and tomorrow they'll march with you against any enemy."

"That," says King Belegar with a smile, "is something we can do."
And we're set for the last big push of this expedition.

Hope the reinforcements get here in time to join the party.
You find Panoramia with the Halflings she disobeyed you to fight alongside, and you take a moment to watch her with them. They're up to their wrists in muddy soil in the small trial gardens set up behind the safety of the East Gates, and the only reason you can't call their conversation arcane is because you can understand arcane. Dirt is dirt, but they have found a great deal to discuss in their dirt, and you listen as they debate the effects of three-field and four-field systems, and speculate what the soil requires that the plants may be providing. A memory unearths itself of the farm of your childhood, of the West Field which would be planted one season and the South Field the next and never both, a ritual followed because it had always been followed. Any child that questioned it would be told that it was the way Rhya demanded, and if you didn't follow the dictates of the Gods you may as well be a filthy Halfling.
#AgriNerds
You shake your head to rid yourself of the unwelcome memory, and clear your throat loud enough to break through the conversation. Only because you were looking for it were you able to catch the flash of panic on Panoramia's face before she excused herself from her fellow workers to come over to you. "Magister!" she says with aggressive cheerfulness. "The soil here has had a harsh time of it - I believe it would have hosted greenskin fungi for a few generations until it was exhausted. They can overcome that, but they have an easier time of it underground, and of course there's no shortage of caves here, so once the soil gave out it was abandoned." You say nothing, and Panoramia wipes her hands absently on her robes, where the fading of its colour suggests that she had done so and then had to scrub the stain out innumerable times in the past. "The Halflings don't have the Rhythm of Rhya, but they've got something called Phineas' Footsteps which is a child's skipping rhyme that dictates almost the exact same rotation. Isn't that interesting?"
Thats adorable trying to technobabble your way past a senior academic. Still, an interesting factoid. I don't think anyone considered that greenskin fungi might actually deplete the soil before, meaning that past an initial surge of fecundity the spawning rate will taper off.
"Sleep well?" you ask.

"Oh." To her credit, she doesn't even try to lie.

"Grey Order, remember. We see all, we know all."

"Magister, I'm sorry, but-"

"But there was a battle and you couldn't just lie there and sleep while your little friends might have been bleeding and dying?" She's staring at you, and you have to keep yourself from laughing. It's easy for people to suspect you can read minds if what they're thinking is so obvious.
Mathilde knows...she's been there herself. Done it herself.
Still a reputation for mind reading is good!
"Panoramia. Druid name, right?"

"Yes, Magister."

"Parents Jade College as well?"

"Yes. Ma teaches now, Da's Perpetual." Perpetuals were Apprentices-in-Perpetuity, those who had some magic but lacked either the power, the desire, or the aptitude to attempt to reach full Magisterial status, many finding comfortable roles in the Colleges as servants or secretaries or assistants or librarians. Or, apparently, as spouses.

"So you grow up knowing you'll probably be magical, you got taught all the little tricks right from the start, you know to take your time and most Ghyran spells are happy to let you..." To Panoramia, magic was not a terrifying curse that appeared one day without warning and upended the life she thought she knew. It had been a constant her entire life, and even before her ability to touch and shape Ghyran had sprouted she had likely been surrounded by it and had known it intimately before her first spell. And Ghyran itself was very easy to let your guard down around. It encouraged life and growth, it thrived in happy little groves full of trees and animals and birdsong and flowers, it sprouted like a tree and flowed like a river. "I understand why you had to be there. But I told you to sleep for a reason. What's your worst?"
Its a deceptively nice Wind.
"What?" But she knows what you meant. It was a common game among young wizards. What's your worst miscast? "My, um, my hand, it cramped up into a sort of claw shape. I couldn't move it for..." she pauses as she sees the look you give her. "For about three minutes..."
Huh, she must have been rather obedient and careful back home if she never got worse than that before. Never had to cast for life and death.
"I summoned a daemon," you say, and you're grimly pleased at the expression on her face. "At the age of sixteen. Wisdom's Asp. It followed me from the other side of mirrors and it wanted so very much to wrap itself around me and bury it's thorns into my skin. It stalked me for seven years until I managed to trap it." She stares at you in horror. "Don't you worry about that - they like Ulgu and Ghur and Hysh. No, mishandled Ghyran calls to Rotwyrms, giant insubstantial daemon-maggots that hunger for flesh." You look away, so Panoramia's horror doesn't dissuade you. "Just last month at Und-Uzgar, my shadow came to life and crushed to death the creature closest to me, which I'm very glad was a Skaven rather than any of my compatriots." You see her look down, and you follow her gaze to your shadow, which as always is flitting around obeying its own desires instead of the angle of the sunlight. "Yes, it's been like that ever since. Despite that, I consider myself lucky. During the Battle of Drakenhof, a Magister of the Light Order named Jovi Sunscryer fumbled something he was trying to do and exploded into flames of pure Hysh. Needless to say, he died. So did most of those unlucky enough to be living in that district. Are you starting to see my point?"

You turn to face her again, and eventually she remembers to reply. "Yes, Magister."
And you can hear Panoramia quietly shit a brick.
"I'm glad. If you really must be there, get one of your new friends to teach you the bow. Because if you keep casting when you shouldn't be casting, it won't just be you that suffers, it will be everyone around you. Understood?"

"Yes, Magister."
Ghyran actually does make for decent archers...if only for the kind of payload an alchemist can pack onto perfectly ordinary arrows.
"Good. Off you go." She flees, and you sigh. You had to channel a bit of your Master- of your former Master for that, but if you ever met whoever taught Panoramia you won't need anyone's example to be properly scolding. Anyone that reaches Journeyman without being absolutely terrified of the consequences of mishandled magic hasn't been taught properly.

You hope the Jades weren't stupid enough to have let her be Apprentice to her own mother.
Good luck getting it into thick teenager skulls.
And its not like the Grey's method stopped Mathilde from her own miscasts.
The day after the Expedition left Barak Varr, so did a convoy of wagons. The same the day after, and the day after that, and so forth all the way to today, and likely for quite some time into the future. An experienced baggage train can match an army on the march for speed, so they take no longer than you did to cross the same amount of ground. The day after the Expedition arrived at the East Gates, the first set of wagons arrived. The next day's were one day's travel up the road, and the next day's further still, and so on. Seven baggage trains in Death Pass. Seven travelling through the dark of the Underway. Seven wearing ruts into the formerly unspoiled wilderness of the valley. And if the coin-counters of Barak Varr had decided it was more economical to travel by road rather than pushed upstream by steam and Dwarven artifice, another fourteen stretched out along Blood River. That was gunpowder for cannons and bolts for crossbows and whetstones for axes and ropes for catapults. It was also tents and shoes and wood for fires and soap for washing and bandages for the wounded. It was drinking water, because even though shovels had rediscovered the aquifer days ago, it would take weeks for the water that Barak Varr had sent before that discovery to stop arriving.

It was also food and ale, and though nobody had gone hungry or thirsty, under King Belegar's careful hand enough had been put aside just in case it was needed. And though one obvious need for food and drink was to sustain life, almost as vital was sustaining morale, and to that end all those carefully stockpiled victuals were to be put to use - and on top of that, many a gauntlet had been thrown down as Ranger and Knight and Huntsman alike set out to display their skill at hunting, so if there were any goats or sheep unfortunate enough to call the area home, they would be adding to the feast. Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow's battle has been thoughtfully scheduled for late afternoon, leaving plenty of time to sleep off the hangovers.
Thats a VERY well planned supply train.
I notice the supply train went along two routes. If one got intercepted by orcs we'd at least have SOME rather than nothing.

If Mathilde wishes to disclose the full events in the Temple, Ranald included, now is the last appropriate time.

Argument is rather heated in thread(and I hadn't finished going through it), but its narrowed enough that I only need to consider two:

[ ] Tell Belegar and Kragg.
Pros(IC):
-Share knowledge of Black Orc origins and be aware of strategic threat of dwarf renegades experimenting in the wastelands.
-Share knowledge of potential chaos plot.
-Pick Kragg's brains about the theology of whats going on there. Mathilde is Arcane education background, but she wants to know, and it may be useful in developing Theurgic styles.

Cons(IC):
-Ranald has given no sign one way or another of wanting to tell.
-Ranald may potentially go over poorly with dwarfs, though he's not especially unreliable compared to Umgi in general.
-Lets them know how close it could have been, which would cost us some respect, but gain us some trust in terms of discretion(we didn't seek it out, we defused a bomb we found). Kragg probably already suspects though.

Pros(OOC):
-Learn about the Chaos Dwarf berserk button and more detailed understanding of communal responsibility for dwarfs.

Cons(OOC):
-Makes Kragg even angrier at Chaos Dwarfs


I don't think the mentions of dwarfs going on suicide expeditions against the Dawi Zharr are a realistic threat. The dwarfs take the long game and we're talking to TWO dwarfs in particular well known for Revenge Best Served Frozen, rather than the general council.

[ ] Remain silent.

Or the conservative option. Take no risks, just file the report home.

How will Mathilde spend the time before the celebration? The two with the most votes will win, but only one from each category.

Most people are voting along the lines of "Who I want to see", but I'd note this will also update the sheets for our Journeymanlings and potentially let us arrange something more detailed for the Citadel attack. They've grown a bit.

[ ] Join the hunting with Esbern and Seija

Get to know them better and a sense of how their kittybirds does in battle so we can assign them a bit better.

[ ] Join the hunting with Maximilian
[ ] Join the hunting with Codrin

How do they feel about what happened on the field, being attached to that unit?

[ ] Cook with Panoramia and Titus

Let her know we got our eye on her, and the agriculture talk might at some distant point be relevant to our fief. Might.
Also halfling cooking is a treat.

[ ] 'Make sure the ale hasn't gone bad' with Johann

The only cure to our paranoia about him is to get shitfaced drunk with him, and chat a bit.

[ ] Join the hunting with Ulthar
[ ] Join the hunting with Sigwald Kriegersen
[ ] Join the hunting with Ruprecht Wulfhart
[ ] Cook with Karak Izor
[ ] Cook with Clan Angrund
[ ] 'Make sure the ale hasn't gone bad' with Skaroki
[ ] 'Make sure the ale hasn't gone bad' with Durin

General social linkery and connections

What will Mathilde be doing during the celebration? The three with the most votes will win.

This is just what I want to see, so less strategic considerations.

[ ] Drinking
[ ] More drinking
[ ] Drinking games
[ ] Being maudlin
[ ] Eating

General partying and stress relief.

[ ] Telling war stories

Telling war stories also means sharing war stories. It'd be an interesting read.

[ ] Gambling
[ ] Hold a Ranaldan religious service

These two celebrate Ranald and I want to take this after the help he gave and got. The Adventurers likely heartily agree.

[ ] Listening to Longbeards grumble

This would work better if we knew Khazalid, but Longbeards always got good war stories and love an audience. They'd probably grumble in Reikspiel.

[ ] Sparring
[ ] Target shooting

Think we got enough fighting for now.

[ ] Put on a magic display (Petty and Lesser only)

Could help get the humans more used to magic?

[ ] Play with a giant wolf
[ ] Play with a demigryph

Fluffy!

[ ] Valayan religious service
[ ] Ulrican religious service
[ ] Taalite religious service

Valayan religious service is genuinely interesting. Not many humans get to sit in on those. The rest less so.

[ ] Help move the Karag Nar hoard

Instead of celebrating, more work. Nah. The Longbeards got this.

Shall Mathilde engage in Dwarven Shenanigans, should the opportunity arise?

[ ] Yes to Shenanigans
[ ] No to Shenanigans

Oh Yes



[X] Tell Belegar and Kragg.

[X] Join the hunting with Esbern and Seija
[X] Join the hunting with Maximilian
[X] 'Make sure the ale hasn't gone bad' with Johann

[X] Gambling
[X] Hold a Ranaldan religious service
[X] Valayan religious service

[X] Yes to Shenanigans

Current preferences.
 
Why was this opened up again? Because if it was to get a more settled vote I'm pretty sure it's even more polarized then the first vote.
Considering how contentious the issue is it looks like BoneyM was absolutely correct to put it to a vote.
Now admittedly I'm voting for Remain Silent and so there's a possibility I'll lose the vote here, but considering how popular telling Belegar and Kragg is it's clear that it's a desirable enough decision that it should be an option.

More importantly is the vote on how to party. Currently cooking with Panoramia and Titus is winning out over playing with Giant Wolves. This is a travesty, Giant Wolves people!

Also we might be spending time with the wolf riders as well (contact get!) or introducing our own puppy to the giant wolves (don't you want to read that!). Choose Giant Wolves to increase the amount of wolf in your life. There's no such thing as too much wolf.

Wolf, Wolf, Wolf.
 
:facepalm: There's nothing inevitable or necessary about people making large threads unpleasant to read through. Disagree with my vote all you like, but if the tone of a thread is getting bad then there's every reason to try and stop that from happening.
How did that work out for you and the thread tho
Kinda agreed: if we do vote to keep silent here than im probably going to vote to keep silent to the grey wizards: high risk plus consistencey of reasoning in character.
I feel like we should trust the organization we've been a part of for over fifteen years more than the dwarves we met a few months ago, however bro-y one of them is.
 
While I get that finding out meta info in character is cool and that letting the dwarves know seems like a just thing to do, I can't help but remember earlier on in the quest where a dwarf reckoner specifically came to us to prevent us from embarking on a self-destructive grudge upon the death of Van Hal. While slayers are certainly glorified for their deaths, clearly every effort is made to prevent other dwarves from falling down that path.

I can't help but wonder what could be more self-destructive for Belegar and his forces than a truly massive grudge directed towards beings far, far away, right smack dab in the middle of a campaign for K8P.
 
Ah, this thread really does fly. Some arguments were presented.

-Telling the King and Kragg will only lead to shame about the Dark Dwarves:
No. Full stop. That's strategic level information. It will not lead to "only this one thing" that favors the way you want people to vote. Let's be frank and factual about this.
1. The Dark Dwarves are a shame upon the dwarven people. But if anyone among the dwarves can deal with that shame, for whom it is an old and familiar one, than that's Kragg and a dwarven King. Espetially the King who is trying to reclame a hold a lot closer to the dark dwarves than most of the holds. Will there be shame? Not more than there already is.

2. The Black Orc creation thing. That's strategic level information. Its the origin of a plague. You know how plagues work? Right now the Black Orcs are considered just another mad thing in a mad world. They can't even make a grudge over them, because they just popped up. Having someone to blame for it will only help. Because now they can make a Grudge about it, instead of thinking its just a mad world out there. Grudges they can understand, and eventually, deal with.

3. "A grudge against the dark dwarves is a bad thing" argument. No, no it isn't. There is already a mountain of Grudges against them, not least for abandoning their Gods and all their crimes since. No, the dwarves wont suddenly harry off to kill them all. The primary trait of dwarves is patience. Like the lost Karaks, they'll remember. And plan, and plot. And when the day comes when they can do something about it, then they'll act. And don't tell me this one, this one Grudge, will be the one that breaks their back. No it won't. Grudges are how the dwarven alien psyche deals with these things. It's normal and natural for them. It just goes on the list of "things to deal with, when given a chance/eventually".

4. Telling them Wizards can be possessed by Mork/we were possessed by Mork. Fair, but that's not the whole story, now is it? The story isn't "oh this human got possessed and gave up and now its a risk" its "She got possessed and her ancestor gods stepped in and bleed the fucker". If anything its encouraging. Humans can get possessed is not new information: See Norsca, Chaos, Chaos warriors and Chaos Warriors and Sorcerers exploding into deamons. This is not new information. This part of why everyone is allways wary around us, and why every wizard is vary of magic. You are not tellling them a new thing when you tell them wizards can get possessed. You are telling them a new thing when you tell them you robbed fuckcng Mork.

5. Again, we committed Grand-theft God. This may matter. As multiple people have posted, it could be anything from "Uniting the Orcs and Goblins remaining in K8P" to "Here, have another Waaargh, just for you". The King needs, needs to know a God got robbed in his home. If a Waaargh comes in later on because of this, because of us, and they aren't ready, everything we've worked for here will be undone. That's strategic level info they need to have. Rangers need eyes on the wastes, now.

6. Talking about the dark dwarves with them is a prelude to talking about the dark dwarves with the Grey Order. They might know about them, but few places are likely to know as much about them as Kragg the fucking Grim, and knowing more about the enemies of order is a good thing for the Empire. Even if they are "Way the fuck that way". If nothing else, we can warn other Grey Wizards about it, and not to bring it up. Keep in mind, Mat told the Colledge she was going to dwarf town, and no one mentioned anything about dark dwarves. So either to Colledge doesn't know, or for some reason decided not to tell her, even with mind spells on hand, like for the Skaven. And I don't know about you, but I think the Colledge needs to know about another kind of dwarf, a dark one, before their merchants, traders and other agents abuse the ignorance.

In conclusion: Talking to them about this is risky. Yes. But it is worth it. At least to me. We've seen that 100 roll for the Grenskin response. They were united before the headlong charge. They might yet be again. God alone knows what might be coming from the wastes. They need to know a God was pissed off. And a lot of the talk about possesion was kind of misinformation. Wizards getting possesed is not a new thing. Its part of the reason they are so feared, and so disapproved off. At least this time we can point and say: Yeah, but my Ancestor God came in and wrecked the fool.

EDIT: And ok fair, its entirely possible Mork just fucks off. But that's just a different kind of gamble you are talking. There are no safe options. Just picking your risks. Welcome to Warhammer.
 
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That's really not in the cards; he acknowledged that our contributions towards the expedition were incalculable in the last update. You could argue the possibility of him being upset, but not in that specific manner; he'd be more likely to listen politely, say some variant of 'ok', and try to get us checked out, because whatever we did against that Shaman must have knocked us for a loop.
Just because it would be unpleasant, or extreme, does not mean it's not possible. I'm not saying it's likely, but it is possible for Belegar to regret out presence despite all the work we've done if he feels betrayed enough. We've only known him for about three months remember, and we didn't meaningfully interact with him for the first month of that. While I'm sure Belegar values our contributions and sees us a critical component of all the success the expedition has seen so far, and views us favorably personally, that doesn't mean we can't screw up so bad he stops trusting us.
 
Why is Black Orcs being from the chaos dwarves so important? Like knowing their origin isn't going to magically make them go away or make them easier to fight since as shown in Mathilde's vision the Black Orcs are already a (semi-distant) part of the Greenskin ecosystem so the only way to wipe them out is to wipe out all orcs which is no easy task.
 
sigh

you're ignoring the logistics of it all in favor of "I'm sure Kragg can sort 'em out" "We can tell them something they already know but in a different way" and "Surely it'll be better for them to have something to blame for causing them problems". Like, the whole "Black Orcs being known makes them easier to handle" thing is... Well, how? How is knowing they were an engineered species somehow make them weaker?

Like, most of your argument falls apart right there, the assumption that telling them will magically make the problem go away, instead of just directing the target onto someone largely outside of reach, and that Kragg will serve as a useful appendage giving us what we need instead of a cantankerous bastard who's primarily only interested in the restoration of the Karaz Ankor and doesn't actually give a fig about any distractions from that.
 
Just because it would be unpleasant, or extreme, does not mean it's not possible. I'm not saying it's likely, but it is possible for Belegar to regret out presence despite all the work we've done if he feels betrayed enough. We've only known him for about three months remember, and we didn't meaningfully interact with him for the first month of that. While I'm sure Belegar values our contributions and sees us a critical component of all the success the expedition has seen so far, and views us favorably personally, that doesn't mean we can't screw up so bad he stops trusting us.
A good point. He may view us favorably, but its a relationship of gratitude, not grown and forged friendship.
 
More importantly is the vote on how to party. Currently cooking with Panoramia and Titus is winning out over playing with Giant Wolves. This is a travesty, Giant Wolves people!

These are in separate categories and don't compete against each other.
-Telling the King and Kragg will only lead to shame about the Dark Dwarves:
No. Full stop. That's strategic level information. It will not lead to "only this one thing" that favors the way you want people to vote. Let's be frank and factual about this.

Just want to thank you for making really good arguments here.
 
sigh

you're ignoring the logistics of it all in favor of "I'm sure Kragg can sort 'em out" "We can tell them something they already know but in a different way" and "Surely it'll be better for them to have something to blame for causing them problems". Like, the whole "Black Orcs being known makes them easier to handle" thing is... Well, how? How is knowing they were an engineered species somehow make them weaker?

Like, most of your argument falls apart right there, the assumption that telling them will magically make the problem go away, instead of just directing the target onto someone largely outside of reach, and that Kragg will serve as a useful appendage giving us what we need instead of a cantankerous bastard who's primarily only interested in the restoration of the Karaz Ankor and doesn't actually give a fig about any distractions from that.
All of which rest on the assumption that our vision was correct, that Mathilde is going to 100% trust the things she saw while momentarily possessed by an Orcish god. Yes, we know because of our meta knowledge that what she saw is the unvarnished truth, but Mathilde doesn't and her nature so far has always been to verify before spilling the beans and yet people are suddenly aching to regurgitate what should be, from an in character perspective, very suspect information.
 
Just because it would be unpleasant, or extreme, does not mean it's not possible. I'm not saying it's likely, but it is possible for Belegar to regret out presence despite all the work we've done if he feels betrayed enough. We've only known him for about three months remember, and we didn't meaningfully interact with him for the first month of that. While I'm sure Belegar values our contributions and sees us a critical component of all the success the expedition has seen so far, and views us favorably personally, that doesn't mean we can't screw up so bad he stops trusting us.
I think we may be talking about different things; I was talking about taking him aside and saying something crazy to him, but you seem to have meant the actions that we'd be describing to him (he doesn't believe us versus he does, but he doesn't like what we're saying)? I would argue that our actions such as they have been would not elicit such a reaction in any case, but that wasn't what I meant in that post you quoted me on.
 
Why is Black Orcs being from the chaos dwarves so important? Like knowing their origin isn't going to magically make them go away or make them easier to fight since as shown in Mathilde's vision the Black Orcs are already a (semi-distant) part of the Greenskin ecosystem so the only way to wipe them out is to wipe out all orcs which is no easy task.
It needs to go in all the relevant Books of Grudges, so that official written record could be had of Mathilde's discreetly disclosed details.
 
sigh

you're ignoring the logistics of it all in favor of "I'm sure Kragg can sort 'em out" "We can tell them something they already know but in a different way" and "Surely it'll be better for them to have something to blame for causing them problems". Like, the whole "Black Orcs being known makes them easier to handle" thing is... Well, how? How is knowing they were an engineered species somehow make them weaker?

Like, most of your argument falls apart right there, the assumption that telling them will magically make the problem go away, instead of just directing the target onto someone largely outside of reach, and that Kragg will serve as a useful appendage giving us what we need instead of a cantankerous bastard who's primarily only interested in the restoration of the Karaz Ankor and doesn't actually give a fig about any distractions from that.
"will magically make the problem go away,"
I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth. That's not what was said. Not even a little bit.

As for making them easier to handle, think of it like this. Kragg makes his runes by channeling his hate, and disappointment and the general failing of the dwarves right? The dwarves got hit repeatedly. The War of the Beard into the Sundering into the Skaven. And the Black Orcs among it all, as the most dangerous of them. Knowing how and why the Black orcs came to be means he and all the others can focus their Grudge, instead of it just being poison.

The Black Orcs aren't some punishment from the Gods, a curse on all dwarves. They were made. That doesn't solve the problem, but it does re-contextualize it. Now they'll know who did it. So they can focus that hate, instead of just hating the world entire for producing the Black orcs. And anything that helps the Dwarves hate the dark dwarves, instead of being shame being the primary emotion, is a good thing.

As for why its importat to tell Kragg? Because if a mannling wizard can do it, than maybe he can come up with his own way to piss off and hurt the Orc Gods. God alone knows what he might or might not be able to do, but for him to have a chance at it, he needs to know the score. Runcrafting is about knowing shit. Don't deny him possibly critical info.
 
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Why is Black Orcs being from the chaos dwarves so important? Like knowing their origin isn't going to magically make them go away or make them easier to fight since as shown in Mathilde's vision the Black Orcs are already a (semi-distant) part of the Greenskin ecosystem so the only way to wipe them out is to wipe out all orcs which is no easy task.
And again it's strongly implid that Dwarves actually suffer negative consequences for having unfulfilled grudges in the book if the Chaos Dwarves are culpible for everything done a Black Ork... well that's a lot of newly discovered yet nearly impossible to fulfill grudges right their.

At least with Skaven and other Greenskins the jerk that cause it usually in the same taken dwarf hold or under-city, it's much easier to gut the Black Ork Warboss of the week.
 
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