Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Garlak · Sep 22, 2019

Huh, had a thought.

While I liked the line of "Kragg's runes do not shit around", and the fact that his runes made so much of an impact on the battle -- seriously, it was great, and it was a sheer relief to see happen -- it made me wonder. This whole battle, did Kragg the Grim rampage basically unchecked with his runecraft?

There were no Greenskin shamans trying to counterspell him, or to cast spells at the Dwarfs and Humans. There was no magical struggle, no back-and-forth. Kragg the Grim had the total dominance of the mystical battlefield.

Do I have that right?

If so, we were really fortunate. Because if it were otherwise, then it could have gone ugly.

How much of that was because of this bit in the previous update, where Kragg told the Winds of Magic "This is what you are going to be doing now" --

BoneyM said:
Anyone with the slightest hint of magical sensitivity could instantly sense the change that had been wrought. One moment, the Winds of Magic blew hither and thon according to their whim in a thousand different directions. The next, all winds were pulled inexorably towards a single point atop the secondary peak of Karag Lhune. Some energies clung to those few individuals attuned to an individual wind, but most could do nothing but surrender to the pull.

"Khazukan Kazakit-ha," Kragg murmured to himself.

-- and how much of that was because of what Mathilde did at the ritual, and the fact that these were Black Orcs, who usually lack Shamans, especially if they don't bring any Goblins along?

That combination of Mathilde's sabotage of the ritual, the enemy being Black Orcs, and Kragg the Grim being Kragg... ... made it really really fortunate for how the magical part of that battle, didn't it?

To actually (re)ask my question: how much of that was due to circumstances, and how much of that was 'expected' -- i.e. this is the sort of dominance that Kragg the Grim can be expected to achieve on the battlefield?

pucflek · Sep 22, 2019

Andmeuths said:
Mathilde is in no position to decide whether the information on Mork should be on a need to know basis, nor what this basis should look like. Under these circumstances, telling the council about Mork is not boasting, but an act of humility, and hiding this information from Mork is one part hubris and one part cowardice.

As the only person who was there at the time, the actual conduit of the power while it was being stolen AND chief in charge of all weird wizard shit, she is exactly in the position to decide if its on need to know basis. Mathilde should remember Van Hals words, and so should you. You don ´t need approval of someone above you, you are high enough up the totem pole to decide yourself. I don ´t disagree on divulging the Mork status, although i doubt the "weakening" was significant enough to really be that much of a bother to Mork aside from his psyche for stealing his shit, but hey.

Alectai · Sep 22, 2019

He's the best living Runelord. Who apparently spends all his time building magic bombs.

all of his time.

Dwarfs are an Elder Race right along with Elves, it'd be weird if Kragg couldn't pull out Teclis-level Battle Magic when unopposed and in a perfect spot.

Redshirt Army · Sep 22, 2019

Garlak said:
To actually (re)ask my question: how much of that was due to circumstances, and how much of that was 'expected' -- i.e. this is the sort of dominance that Kragg the Grim can be expected to achieve on the battlefield?

Kragg's rolls were almost exactly average overall. The lack of enemy action and mystical mitigation certainly helped, but his own performance was entirely "as expected".

Alratan · Sep 22, 2019

Garlak said:
Huh, had a thought.

While I liked the line of "Kragg's runes do not shit around", and the fact that his runes made so much of an impact on the battle -- seriously, it was great, and it was a sheer relief to see happen -- it made me wonder. This whole battle, did Kragg the Grim rampage basically unchecked with his runecraft?

There were no Greenskin shamans trying to counterspell him, or to cast spells at the Dwarfs and Humans. There was no magical struggle, no back-and-forth. Kragg the Grim had the total dominance of the mystical battlefield.

Do I have that right?

If so, we were really fortunate. Because if it were otherwise, then it could have gone ugly.

How much of that was because of this bit in the previous update, where Kragg told the Winds of Magic "This is what you are going to be doing now" --

-- and how much of that was because of what Mathilde did at the ritual, and the fact that these were Black Orcs, who usually lack Shamans, especially if they don't bring any Goblins along?

That combination of Mathilde's sabotage of the ritual, the enemy being Black Orcs, and Kragg the Grim being Kragg... ... made it really really fortunate for how the magical part of that battle, didn't it?

To actually (re)ask my question: how much of that was due to circumstances, and how much of that was 'expected' -- i.e. this is the sort of dominance that Kragg the Grim can be expected to achieve on the battlefield?

He was uncontested until near the end, and when the greenskins started trying to use magic back it... didn't go well for them:

The stalemate stretches, and another horn sounds on the battlefield and the men under Codrin's command pull back as one, leaving only the dead as the wounded are hauled up and dragged away. The chaos amongst the greenskins only increases as energy coalesces into an almighty force that strikes like the fist of an angry god, shattering the earth and crushing dozens of greenskins, and it takes you a moment to realize it's not Kragg: it is the literal fist of an incredibly upset God, and Mork's pummelling of those who are failing him does nothing for their faltering morale. You wonder how Kragg felt to have not disrupted the formation of greenskin magic, and you smile as you see him channel his frustration into bolts of lightning that strike into the thickest parts of the crowd that aren't currently being tended to by the Fist of Mork.

Mork being so frustrated that he beat his own side to pulp is down to Mathilde. The orc shamans who invoked him were probably hoping he'd punch their enemies, not them.

Alectai said:
He's the best living Runelord. Who apparently spends all his time building magic bombs.

all of his time.

Dwarfs are an Elder Race right along with Elves, it'd be weird if Kragg couldn't pull out Teclis-level Battle Magic when unopposed and in a perfect spot.

I'm not sure if we even know if using a rune destroys it, or just discharges it, so he has to wait a few months for them to charge up again from the ambient Winds (or stick them in a Waystone Nexus, perhaps).

Mr Apollo · Sep 22, 2019

pucflek said:
As the only person who was there at the time, the actual conduit of the power while it was being stolen AND chief in charge of all weird wizard shit, she is exactly in the position to decide if its on need to know basis. Mathilde should remember Van Hals words, and so should you. You don ´t need approval of someone above you, you are high enough up the totem pole to decide yourself. I don ´t disagree on divulging the Mork status, although i doubt the "weakening" was significant enough to really be that much of a bother to Mork aside from his psyche for stealing his shit, but hey.

That was in regards to expanding our spy network outside of the province. This is changing the divine status quo. It's like comparing little league to the World Series. It's best to let the actual theological experts decide how big of a deal this was.

065tdsa · Sep 22, 2019

pucflek said:
As the only person who was there at the time, the actual conduit of the power while it was being stolen AND chief in charge of all weird wizard shit, she is exactly in the position to decide if its on need to know basis. Mathilde should remember Van Hals words, and so should you. You don ´t need approval of someone above you, you are high enough up the totem pole to decide yourself. I don ´t disagree on divulging the Mork status, although i doubt the "weakening" was significant enough to really be that much of a bother to Mork aside from his psyche for stealing his shit, but hey.

An important part of our after action report is going to be 'what caused the massive greenskin attack, with a ton of them running into the Citadel before the Citadel orcs started sallying?' With also a side of what the hell was going on here, in general. Even if this never becomes relevant again, people will still want to know why it happened, if only to know for sure it won't happen again.

The wider consequences of this massive tangle will probably take long enough to rebound towards us that we'll not exactly get a full tally of all the effects of our actions, but they might still be worth bringing up if only in an abstract way.

Mopman43 · Sep 22, 2019

Garlak said:
There were no Greenskin shamans trying to counterspell him, or to cast spells at the Dwarfs and Humans. There was no magical struggle, no back-and-forth. Kragg the Grim had the total dominance of the mystical battlefield.

I mean, this is Kragg the Grim, at his personal Anvil of Doom, with prep-time. Are we sure they didn't try to counter him, and were swept aside like a gnat?

Neshuakadal · Sep 22, 2019

Garlak said:
Huh, had a thought.

While I liked the line of "Kragg's runes do not shit around", and the fact that his runes made so much of an impact on the battle -- seriously, it was great, and it was a sheer relief to see happen -- it made me wonder. This whole battle, did Kragg the Grim rampage basically unchecked with his runecraft?

There were no Greenskin shamans trying to counterspell him, or to cast spells at the Dwarfs and Humans. There was no magical struggle, no back-and-forth. Kragg the Grim had the total dominance of the mystical battlefield.

Do I have that right?

If so, we were really fortunate. Because if it were otherwise, then it could have gone ugly.

How much of that was because of this bit in the previous update, where Kragg told the Winds of Magic "This is what you are going to be doing now" --

-- and how much of that was because of what Mathilde did at the ritual, and the fact that these were Black Orcs, who usually lack Shamans, especially if they don't bring any Goblins along?

That combination of Mathilde's sabotage of the ritual, the enemy being Black Orcs, and Kragg the Grim being Kragg... ... made it really really fortunate for how the magical part of that battle, didn't it?

To actually (re)ask my question: how much of that was due to circumstances, and how much of that was 'expected' -- i.e. this is the sort of dominance that Kragg the Grim can be expected to achieve on the battlefield?

I mean apparently one of his past times is to just walk through greenskin magic so I can just imagine greenskin shamans trying to stop him while he is on his anvil of doom.
Greenskin shaman 1: Nothing's working! No matter what I do lava is still spewing everywhere!
Greenskin shaman 2: Have you tried the blue mushroom yet! That one gives me the best result!
Greenskin shaman 1: Numbskull! Of course I have used the blue mushroom! I have even tried the red mushroom and look! Still lava everywhere!
Greenskin shaman 2: Well look. Maybe if we get drunk no one will blame us for failing to stop the lava from spewing everywhere.
Greenskin shaman 1: What! You told me we drank the last of the fungus beer yesterday!
Greenskin shaman 1 and 2: Random yelling and aggressive gestures as the greenskins outside get flayed by lighting and boiled by lava.

Andmeuths · Sep 22, 2019

pucflek said:
You don ´t need approval of someone above you, you are high enough up the totem pole to decide yourself.

You do realize by appealing to Ranald in dealing with the fallout of the ritual, Mathilde was acknowledging in this case, she was not high enough to Totem Poll to deal with the Divine energies around her unaided right? That isn't a claim Mathilde is high in that metaphysical divine totem pole, but a surrender to her god performed in a manner that simultaneously enriched her god and impoverished one of the enemies of mankind to the best of Mathilde's abilities as a conduit.

The totem pole of Stirland and Imperial Politics that Abel was referring to is a completely different context from the totem pole of the gods that Mathilde found herself in. That's the totem pole Mathilde's playing with when she makes the decision to withhold why Mork was so pissed from the Council. So no, sorry, I don't think your analogy quite works in this case.

Nix's Warden · Sep 22, 2019

Mopman43 said:
The Dwarfs are very protective of Khazalid. Especially written Khazalid. It might be quite a few favors to be given permission to learn it. Also, you know, learning a completely new language, which tends to not be easy or fast. Though I suppose the influence Khazalid had on Reikspiel might have an impact?

Actually it wouldn't. Going by the Dwarf Favor informational post it would only take 4 Favor to learn Khazalid.

BoneyM said:
You can spend the currency to represent calling in favours, but the rating won't drop unless you actually act against the interests of dwarfkind. I'll probably end up recording it as '15 rep, 15 unspent' or similar.

Possible Expenditures:

Have them send trainers for the watch
One point for skilled but common in dwarf society (Miners), two for specialized units (Rangers), four for true expertise (Ironbreakers), eight for hero-level instruction.

Have them send experts to assist in setting up industry for turning that saltpeter into quality gunpowder
Five points.

Personally tutor Mathilde in mundane fields (combat, tactics, mathematics, history)
Same scale as the trainers, depending on the quality of the teacher.

Or in Khazalid?
Four points.

Let Mathilde move into a dwarf hold and live there
If you promise to refrain from spellcasting inside the Hold, and would be willing to live in the bunkhouses, your rep would be enough.

While conducting magical research?
Four points, and you'd have to work out a way to have a laboratory far from the populated parts of the hold.

Lurker of Urk · Sep 22, 2019

I'm actually shifting my vote to:
[x] The death of the Warboss and the shattering of an Almost-Rogue Idol.

Basically drawing attention to the fact that we were directly involved in harming a god to an unknown degree is not something that we want to publicize. It would draw way too much attention to us from mortals and maybe even gods for us to handle. Right now, what happened was between Ranald, Gork/Mork and Mathilde and the odds of Ranald, Gork , or Mork telling anyone are quite low. If anything powerful noticed it's too late to do anything about it, but let's not increase the danger.

BoneyM said:
Kragg gazed over the Eastern Valley as chaos engulfed the plans of younger and less wise beings. Something in Karag Nar had riled up the Grobi mightily, undoubtedly to do with that ridiculous Mhornokrul. Whatever had caused it, the Expedition was about to see more of a fight than it had expected, even in its worst-case scenarios. Kragg closed his eyes, and concentrated.

Kragg doesn't know what happened and breaking the idol/ritual along with an explanation about the heresy are enough to explain what anyone not involved would observe. It also logically follows that the orcish gods would naturally be somewhat weakened from infighting.

[edit]
[x] The death of the Warboss, the shattering of an Almost-Rogue Idol, and the potential for religious conflict (with the involvement of the gods in question).
This would convey basically the same strategic information, without opening us up to unnecessary attention.

Karnax626 · Sep 22, 2019

veekie said:
By contrast the Imperial practice of enchanting is basically a single piece, made for a single task, and has to be designed from scratch each time, which means debugging and replication is slow and ponderous.

Is it actually that difficult for humans to mass produce enchanted items (for a given value of mass produce)?

I was under the impression that different people most likely wouldn't be able to produce exactly the same item, but if one person knows one item inside out, then they should be able to produce near identical items relatively easily. It's just the latter is fairly boring hence why there's no one yet who's taken up the job of carving new staffs for the Grey Order.

065tdsa · Sep 22, 2019

Karnax626 said:
Is it actually that difficult for humans to mass produce enchanted items (for a given value of mass produce)?

I was under the impression that different people most likely wouldn't be able to produce exactly the same item, but if one person knows one item inside out, then they should be able to produce near identical items relatively easily. It's just the latter is fairly boring hence why there's no one yet who's taken up the job of carving new staffs for the Grey Order.

I don't think it being boring is the only barrier. If only because a) this sort of thing is not boring to everybody and b) it sounds like you could make a ton of cash by doing it full time. Seriously, if the Colleges or Wizards in general could reliably sell magic items they'd rake in lots of money, both for legit utility and Wizard Chic.

So if more people don't do it, it is probably because they can't.

pucflek · Sep 22, 2019

Mr Apollo said:
That was in regards to expanding our spy network outside of the province. This is changing the divine status quo. It's like comparing little league to the World Series. It's best to let the actual theological experts decide how big of a deal this was.

I very, very much doubt that anyone in that exalted company has experience with changing the divine status quo either to be honest. As i said, i don ´t disagree the divulging, i just think you make it sound too much like something she must do instead of good thing to do.

Andmeuths said:
The totem pole of Stirland and Imperial Politics that Abel was referring to is a completely different context from the totem pole of the gods that Mathilde found herself in. That's the totem pole Mathilde's playing with when she makes the decision to withhold why Mork was so pissed from the Council. So no, sorry, I don't think your analogy quite works in this case.

I am sorry, i was not aware that Ancestor Gods and Ulric sat directly at the council table. Sigmar sure was present at Stirlander council when he had a priest there, wasn ´t he?

Alratan · Sep 22, 2019

Lurker of Urk said:
Basically drawing attention to the fact that we were directly involved in harming a god to an unknown degree is not something that we want to publicize. It would draw way too much attention to us from mortals and maybe even gods for us to handle. Right now, what happened was between Ranald, Gork/Mork and Mathilde and the odds of Ranald, Gork , or Mork telling anyone are quite low. If anything powerful noticed it's too late to do anything about it, but let's not increase the danger.

I don't think the dwarves would tell anyone, and I don't think the Grandmasters would either. I'm not sure anyone else would be credible to have the story believed.

pucflek said:
I am sorry, i was not aware that Ancestor Gods and Ulric sat directly at the council table. Sigmar sure was present at Stirlander council when he had a priest there, wasn ´t he?

Ulric will be rapidly informed by the high priest of his who is at the table, and the Ancsector Gods by Kragg. They are very unlikely to answer back, but they'll hear the message.

TotallyNotEvil · Sep 22, 2019

Gonna be frank, saying bragging is pointless is ridiculous, because we are talking about hurting an orcish god.

The season will turn before all the grudges against them are enunciated.

Garlak · Sep 22, 2019

Alectai said:
Dwarfs are an Elder Race right along with Elves, it'd be weird if Kragg couldn't pull out Teclis-level Battle Magic when unopposed and in a perfect spot.

Redshirt Army said:
Kragg's rolls were almost exactly average overall. The lack of enemy action and mystical mitigation certainly helped, but his own performance was entirely "as expected".

Mopman43 said:
I mean, this is Kragg the Grim, at his personal Anvil of Doom, with prep-time. Are we sure they didn't try to counter him, and were swept aside like a gnat?

That's precisely what I was wondering, yes.

Not the pyrotechnics and floor-is-now-lava and how-strong-are-these-spell-effects. But the lack of effective magical resistance from the enemy.

Was the lack due to circumstances (ritual disruption + Black Orcs not having many shamans + Kragg's first act)? Or was it all because Kragg was there, and Greenskin magics knew better than to show their faces.

065tdsa · Sep 22, 2019

It's not like we did it, in a way that means we deserve credit or special attention. I mean we did the deed itself, but it was all set up by other people, we were just the ones to run into this incredibly complex plot in motion and disassemble it with our greatsword in a way that favored us.

Garlak said:
That's precisely what I was wondering, yes. Not the pyrotechnics and floor-is-now-lava and how-strong-are-these-spell-effects. But the lack of effective magical resistance from the enemy.

Was the lack due to circumstances (ritual disruption + Black Orcs not having many shamans + Kragg's first act)? Or was it all because Kragg was there, and Greenskin magics knew better than to show their faces.

I have no doubt they'd have put in more of an attempt if not for the circumstances. But their attempt would have probably failed regardless, because Kragg.

Exmorri · Sep 22, 2019

065tdsa said:
I don't think it being boring is the only barrier. If only because a) it's not boring to everybody and b) it sounds like you could make a ton of cash by doing it full time. So if more people don't do it, it is probably because they can't.

Speculation: the sort of people who like boring tend not to become powerful wizards.

065tdsa · Sep 22, 2019

Exmorri said:
Speculation: the sort of people who like boring tend not to become powerful wizards.

Well maybe, but you don't need to be that powerful to enchant something, do you? You need to be powerful to make the big things, but cranking out lots of small items should be fairly possible. That is before we go into how even people who don't like boring may find themselves enchanting for easy money to prepare for what they plan to do.

A combination of part and full timers should see a very significant flow of magic items if they were easy to make and replicate.

ckxsl023 · Sep 22, 2019

[X] The death of the Warboss, the shattering of an Almost-Rogue Idol, and the weakening of Mork

butchock · Sep 22, 2019

Hmmm... the high rolls of the mercenaries may create a Mercenary hero to balance out Codren and his plan. Potential plot hook here.

Alratan · Sep 22, 2019

On what Mathilde might have learned from examining the Anvil of Power in use the concept of, basically, items that work in three part like the Marksdwarf's Pistol (which we really should have bought as well as the revolver), with a trigger mechanism, a cartridge, and a grip, chamber and barrel to direct the magic. A runelord's magical hammer, individual rune and anvil would seem directly analogous.

Now, for now, based on this insight, Mathilde already knows the shadow chisel spell. That would seem like an eminently suitable spell to try to enchant bullets with. Or perhaps not bullets, enchant a gas check or sabot to create a miniature shadow chisel from the shadow cast by the light of exploding gunpowder that the sabot/gas check expels from the barrel. She'd need to enchant the barrel so that the chisel didn't pass through it, and the trigger to induce the enchanted sabot to activate.

Now yes, armour piercing bullets are great. The question is, does the ability to ignore non-magical armour allow them to ignore non-magical walls...

Longer term, the principle can be applied to lots of things. It's particularly useful if dealing with agents, as it means that once they run out of magical ammunition that only Mathilde knows how to make any magical equipment she gives them would become useless.

Garlak said:
Was the lack due to circumstances (ritual disruption + Black Orcs not having many shamans + Kragg's first act)? Or was it all because Kragg was there, and Greenskin magics knew better than to show their faces.

Another big factor you haven't mentioned is that most of the Waaagh power in the region was probably tied up in the Only Gork ritual, and Mathilde fed that to Ranald.

065tdsa said:
It's not like we did it, in a way that means we deserve credit or special attention. I mean we did the deed itself, but it was all set up by other people, we were just the ones to run into this incredibly complex plot in motion and disassemble it with our greatsword in a way that favored us.

The big issue for the Grey College (and Mathilde) is that someone else manipulated the Chaos Dwarves into making black orcs and orchestrated this, and they may be a but pissed off that we just ruined a millennia long gambit. Hiding this kind of thing from ~~Tzeentch~~ whoever did it is probably beyond Mathilde though.

adaer · Sep 22, 2019

Alratan said:
The question we should be asking is if this was going down in Karag Nar, what are we going to find as the ongoing plots in the other peaks and underground?

It does make me think that the deal between the Skaven and Night Goblins we broke up may have been more important than we originally thought, if this is the upper end of scale for plots happening in each peak.

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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