Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

Kaizuki said:

We know from the text that she is trying to work out real cleansing. I haven't the slightest notion whether she has a deeper motive for or it not, but she literally told us that she has tried doing it, and then went on to ask repeatedly how we had done it, which strongly suggests to me she hasn't given up on it. And, I mean, she hadn't even realized that it was our magic until the second post with her.

But, again, why the hell couldn't she just rely on us? It might have been that we were too goody-goody, but that didn't even come up until after she decided we couldn't help her...

So yeah, as I said in the essay, I think she's predisposed to not working with others for some reason.

Also, minor update to vote:

[X] If you have to roll over her to get all of this on the table, do it.
[X] Dig.
-[X] Postconditions, not preconditions, and yes, you'd try to prevent unnecessary deaths in the interim.
-[X] What is she doing, anyway, that she can be so sure you wouldn't help with it?
--[X] She's trying to work out "renewable" cleansing with all the dead grief controllers' powers, obviously. She said as much.
--[X] You figure she's working on dewitching in some capacity. If not, she's at least dabbled in it.
---[X] Both of those are fairly high on your priority list. Her methods are both evil and severely hampered by working alone, but you're rather hoping to resolve both of those issues peacefully.
[X] Offer a cleanse.

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To go back to some of what you've said earlier - there's definitely some kind of trust issue here. Indeed, the best evidence of that is that Rionna hasn't just told Sabrina why Sabrina couldn't help her. That means this accusation needs to be addressed more strongly:

Firnagzen said:

"Liar," Rionna says, completely without rancor. "Y' despise what I've done, and you want me to stop."

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My feeling is that at the moment Rionna would view the difference between 'preconditions' and 'postconditions' as semantics; it's still Sabrina saying that she wants Rionna to agree to certain things in order for Rionna to receive herself. In and of itself, that's not a bad thing - it's just bad in the context of the half-lie Sabrina has already been caught in. Also, the underlying assumption of this kind of deal is that whatever problem is in Edinburgh is either a) driving her to do the evil things she does, which she wouldn't normally do, or b) that solving the Edinburgh problem is worth more to her than being generally evil. (They're not quite the same - the first one is a bit more charitable about Rionna's character, and it's the one I favour). In which case, isn't it worth saying that? Because 'I think you're a good person inside, and that you won't need to do this if your problem is solved' sounds a lot better than 'I'll help you, but only if you agree to stop the evil stuff when I succeed'.

I think there's also a flaw in the 'what is she doing?' section. I like the general structure of it but don't really like the specifics of it? The first line reads like a rhetorical question that doesn't want an actual answer, and then you follow up with the fact that it's obviously cleansing. Except it's not. We figure it's that, but if we'd been sure we would have been floundering a lot less in this conversation. Similarly with Dewitching, though the language there is worded much less strongly. Finally, saying that something is 'high up on your priority list', well, sounds like bullshit even when someone is being completely earnest about it. It doesn't give Sabrina's reasons, and it doesn't give any evidence for Rionna to believe it. It also doesn't help to specifically call someone's methods evil when they've previously bristled at being judged. Rionna seems pretty touchy about it, to be honest.

Here's a try:

[X] Yeah, you despise it. But you also get the impression that she wouldn't be doing it if she didn't have to.
[X] Your guess, based on what she's said, is that she's working on renewable cleansing, or Dewitching, or something closely related to that.
-[X] And those are things you've been working on a lot too. Because you can't be everywhere, and no-one deserves to be turned into a Witch. No-one.
-[X] Show her a Clear Seed. Let her examine it - even hold it - and tell her it's your first step towards those goals. It's not nearly enough, because it still uses someone's soul to cleanse another's.
[X] The fact is, you need help with this. And you're willing to bet her problem - whatever it is - can't be solved alone, either.
[X] Offer a cleanse.

[x]PhDEevee

So today I saw an acrobatics performance. One routine was introduced with a brief account of a legend in which a boy climbs a mountain to reach the gods. In the routine itself, the acrobat climbed while constructing a tower made of...
Chairs.
I think he reached Madokami while he was up there.

Additionally, my family went to an Italian restaurant afterwards, but I didn't really get any Mumipoints for it as I merely had spaghetti and meatballs.
For me, though, the worst thing was what first appeared to be a cello. All the strings were outright loose, and they were all C-strings. Rather than an endpin, it had a chin rest, meaning that it was actually a giant violin or viola, not a violoncello. And the F-holes were just depressions, and it was actually plastic, and the fine-tuners were simple protrusions, and.... Ugh.

[X] Kaizuki
-[X] But talk like Boomhauer.
--[X] In Japanese.

On the one hand, I don't want this vote to win because I want Sabrina to take this sort of stuff seriously.

...but on the other hand, I kinda want to see how Firn would handle writing all of Sabrina's dialogue for such an update.

(Living in Texas may have started to corrode my sanity...)

[Х] Godwinson

( Not an actual vote. Not an actual English "X" )

Although. Aren't we talking to Riona in English?



Suddenly, I can see Sabrina starting spouting Crazy Japanese mid-conversation. Let's do this.

DB_Explorer said:

I'm just picturing all this debate reflecting in our soul and Rionna just being like 'ah jesus whats fuckin wrong with her now?!'

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[Q] In order to agilize things, make Riona an SV account.
-[Q] Allow Riona direct access through Soul shenanigans.
--[Q] But wait, someone is bound to say something they shouldn't.
---[Q] Restrict Riona's access to a private conversation.
----[Q] Each message sent in there will need approval by majority vote.
-----[Q] Fuck, you're back to voting as normal.

Onmur said:

[Q] In order to agilize things, make Riona an SV account.
-[Q] Allow Riona direct access through Soul shenanigans.
--[Q] But wait, someone is bound to say something they shouldn't.
---[Q] Restrict Riona's access to a private conversation.
----[Q] Each message sent in there will need approval by majority vote.
-----[Q] Fuck, you're back to voting as normal.

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-- [Q] Allow Rionna to debate but not vote in thread

DB_Explorer said:

-- [Q] Allow Rionna to debate but not vote in thread

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Hey now, that's not nice.

This is an open forum, everyone should get a vote as long as they follow the rules.

Onmur said:

Hey now, that's not nice.

This is an open forum, everyone should get a vote as long as they follow the rules.

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... Onmur, I don't know how to say it, but I'm afraid you are Sabrina's braindamage.

That's... not really surprising, actually, come to think of it.

Raiseth said:

... Onmur, I don't know how to say it, but I'm afraid you are Sabrina's braindamage.

That's... not really surprising, actually, come to think of it.

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[Q] Rescind Raiseth's posting privileges.

Raiseth said:

... Onmur, I don't know how to say it, but I'm afraid you are Sabrina's braindamage.

That's... not really surprising, actually, come to think of it.

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So is it treason, then?

Kaizuki said:

So is it treason, then?

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Like that meme a lot, do you not?

Kaizuki said:

Her methods are both evil and severely hampered by working alone, but you're rather hoping to resolve both of those issues peacefully

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Kaizuki said:

-[X] Postconditions, not preconditions, and yes, you'd try to prevent unnecessary deaths in the interim.

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If you actually want Rionna to agree to work with us, then both of these lines seem counterproductive. Trying to set conditions for working together has to come after she's shown an interest in doing so; you can't haggle about price until the customer is at least interested in the product. Also, your first line is not in any way a response to the last thing Rionna said.

And calling her evil is not going to help the peace process. We've already made our disapproval known, throwing judgmental commentary into every line of dialogue is only going to alienate her further.

That she wants to replicate our power is a good insight, however, and since that is also one of our own goals that might be another way in addition to dewitching to break this deadlock.

PhDEevee said:

but I think Rionna would be more interested in the plans for the Grief Control enchantments (fairly sure someone mentioned this but can't find where).

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Here, -

HeroCycle said:

Rionna still doesn't want to trust? And maybe never will?
More than that, Rionna wants radical independence? But that's OK, we WANT to give her our ability, not our soul. It doesn't matter WHO SHE IS, AT ALL. We want to make synthetic Grief cleansers, and we want other girls to be able to make them. We want witches to be turned back into girls everywhere. This should match perfectly with Rionna's interest.

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and prior posts (roughly a week ago?)

She obviously can't let herself think outside of her groove, if she is faced with an almost-success like meeting us and tries to walk away.

We may have to solve it for her entirely.

Script Mak3r said:

For me, though, the worst thing was what first appeared to be a cello. All the strings were outright loose, and they were all C-strings. Rather than an endpin, it had a chin rest, meaning that it was actually a giant violin or viola, not a violoncello. And the F-holes were just depressions, and it was actually plastic, and the fine-tuners were simple protrusions, and.... Ugh.

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A Big Thumbs Up for using your fandom to survive! PMMM level - Survivor! You escaped a Barrier without damage!

What if the power we have that Riona wants to have, is the power to make Chibies?

[X] If you have to roll over her to get all of this on the table, do it.

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[X] If you have to roll over her to get all of this on the table, just do it!

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'Why the flying fuck is this girl making weird poses?! What the f-'

"JUST DO IT!"

"F- I'm drinking actual spirits!"

"Actual spirits?!"

"Spirits! People!"

*Beans Riona with a chair*

*Binds Riona in ribbons*

"Finally."

@Kaizuki - Tell me what you see as incorrect in the current vote I have up? Be specific.

Here, feedback like that, for you:

[Kaizuki] If you have to roll over her to get all of this on the table, do it. - It is O.K. to be strong here!
[Kaizuki] Dig. - DANGER She will react with fear if we focus on her secret without preparation!
-[Kaizuki] Postconditions, not preconditions, and yes, you'd try to prevent unnecessary deaths in the interim. - DANGER Rionna thinks her decisions stand sovereign
-[Kaizuki] What is she doing, anyway, that she can be so sure you wouldn't help with it? - Rionna doesn't wish to answer this already. Why would she now?
--[Kaizuki] She's trying to work out "renewable" cleansing with all the dead grief controllers' powers, obviously. She said as much. - Feasible hypothesis
--[Kaizuki] You figure she's working on dewitching in some capacity. If not, she's at least dabbled in it. - Feasible hypothesis
---[Kaizuki] Both of those are fairly high on your priority list. Her methods are both evil and severely hampered by working alone, but you're rather hoping to resolve both of those issues peacefully. - CAUTION repeating lines she has failed just a moment ago
[Kaizuki] Offer a cleanse. - Feasible

How will you handle the risk?

I am going to propose that we make offers we like that do not require her to trade, and see what she does.

All aboard the catgirl bandwagon.

[X] Kaizuki

That said, I think this is a reasonable objection to the vote as written:

The Narrator said:

If you actually want Rionna to agree to work with us, then both of these lines seem counterproductive. Trying to set conditions for working together has to come after she's shown an interest in doing so; you can't haggle about price until the customer is at least interested in the product. Also, your first line is not in any way a response to the last thing Rionna said.

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@The Narrator: Does my vote as written deal with your objections raised with Kaizuki's?

PhDEevee said:

@The Narrator: Does my vote as written deal with your objections raised with Kaizuki's?

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It's definitely an improvement. You don't outright call her a monster to her face and you don't make demands in exchange for something she hasn't even decided she wants yet.

I'd throw my weight behind it over the alternatives if need be.



For everyone else, a reminder of where we left off:

Firnagzen said:

"Liar," Rionna says, completely without rancor. "Y' despise what I've done, and you want me to stop."

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Rionna doesn't believe that we'd help her, because she thinks that we think she's a monster. Probably because we keep randomly inserting asides into out peace overtures where we call her a monster. If feel like she'd be more willing to listen to us if we could refrain from calling her a monster for a whole five minutes.



Updating my vote to account for Riona's other possible motivation:

[x] Yes, her power freaks us out. That doesn't mean we won't help her. We've seen girls do a lot of terrible things to survive, and we didn't turn our backs on them either.
[x] Try to address whatever concerns she puts forth:
-[x] If she doesn't believe that we'd help her because of our judgmental attitude, explain that we want to help everyone, even girls who've had to make hard choices to survive. Even witches.
-[x] If she doesn't believe that we'd help her out of the goodness of our heart, offer an exchange, because we want her help, too. Ever since Nadia told us there was a girl with soul powers, we've been hoping to meet her.
-[x] If she seem reluctant to share her secret with us, offer her a secret of ours as a show of good faith.
-[x] If she doubts our ability to help, say that it's far from the most ambitious challenge we're tackling.
[x] Use whichever response as a segue to bring dewitching and/or our desire to replicate and distribute our powers to provide universal cleansing. Gauge her interest in each and go into detail as appropriate:
-[x] If dewitching: show her the Clear Seed. Explain it in detail: the sheer quantity of grief removed, the quiescent nature of the witch inside, the feeding of hope-flavored magic.
-[x] If universal cleansing, show her the Clear Seed and explain its capacity, but that it's only a temporary measure (since eventually we want to turn them back into people). Explain that we want to create a renewable alternative for Grief Seeds that we can distribute to every girl on Earth, but we're still a novice at enchanting.
[x] We think she can help us and we can help her. Please. Let us help her.

The strategy I'm employing:

• Respond to what Rionna actually just said to us.
• Reaffirm our offer is genuine.
• Create responses for the most likely reasons I can think of that she might express disbelief.
• Each of those responses also provides a natural segue into discussing dewitching and universal cleansing. If those things interest her, then the bait is set. If not, then bring them up is not a non sequitur and still supports what we're saying.
• Refrain from alienating her by implying insulting things about her.
• Refrain from demanding concessions in exchange for something that she isn't even interested in yet.
• Make a heartfelt plea.

I think that this is likely to garner a positive response. At the very least, it shouldn't set back the peace talks the way that making insults and demands will.

[x] I hate what you've done. But I'm banking on you not having to do it anymore once I've helped you.
[x] And I could really use your help with figuring out how to reverse witching.

I could vote for Aranfan.

... So could I.
In fact, I think I will.

[X] Aranfan

Nice.

Aranfan said:

I hate what you've done. But I'm banking on you not having to do it anymore once I've helped you.

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Thanks to everyone who has given the pieces I am using.

[X] Join our De-witching / cleansing research. Proof exists.
[X] Keep going past objections if required
-[X] Rionna isn't worse than a witch? We will help her. Sabrina helps everyone, even witches. We don't send them to Kyuubey already.
-[X] Sabrina hates her past actions. But we're banking on Rionna not having to do it anymore once we've helped.
-[X] Shades can't help her. Rionna tried.
--[X] Happy enchantment needed.
-[X] What Rionna needs is someone to cast the magic along with her, isn't it?
[X] Who else has helped with her problem?
[X] The only way to move forward after exhausting possibilities is to do things differently than ever before.
[X] People don't do horrible things without reason. Force is almost always less effective than addressing the underlying problem, answering the reason..
-[X] Anri is our example of morality, tell the story

My features:

Do Not Dig, she responds poorly.
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Not answering her in her order, using our own. Following Rionna's conversation plan makes Rionna spin her wheels.
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De-witching first. Expecting to move her assumptions, and open her up with shock. Or at least get her to drop more clues.
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Put facts out in front of her, without requiring a trade.
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She wants to be treated as an awful person? Terminate that line by going to the extreme, compare her actions versus a witch.
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We want to change her future actions, we could accept fixing her problem as the way we do that.
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Rionna can't fix her own problems, this is proven. She has come to the point where the only remaining choice is to risk a partner.
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Shades can't feel? Then Shades can't create happy and hopeful enchantment. We think that is required to succeed.
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Our morality isn't about stopping at rejection, is it? We concern ourselves with fixing evils. In fact, we know a few girls who can tell her how that works.
Anri is a prisoner, yes that is unappealing news. OTOH, Anri has at least two other meanings. Anri wasn't killed - we restrain ourselves - Rionna can expect us not to assassinate her. Anri has Yuuri's witch - we have a matched pair in our circle - Rionna can de-witch someone else first, she gets addition safety for her precious.
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The overall intent is to get Rionna bribed to the extent that her harm stops. It is about as sweet a deal as we can offer? I really want her to let us talk her into a position where we can gain some influence over her. Her behavior is currently a little irrational. If that limit can be exceeded, we can try to save her, as opposed to the other options. Use the facts she gave us about herself to counter, and break her certainty. Her certainty is the enemy.

We will need an extended road trip to clean up Edinburgh, won't we? Start planning our extremely complicated logistics, or find out if Yuki has a rate for intercontinental connections. If we open a gate to Scotland, it makes our resolution here less likely to dent the next adventure.

Narrator, PhdEevee , your votes are most productive. Battleship_Fusou , it is a good reply. I decided to try not squarely replying to her.

[old] Sabrina helps everyone, even witches. De-witching research happening. We don't send them to Kyuubey already. Rionna isn't worse than a witch? We will help her.
[old] Before Rionna decides her end, explore the truth we are saying. Proof exists.
[old] Rionna must have used countless powers already. Another Shade can't help her.
-[old] What she needs is someone to cast the magic along with her, isn't it?
[old] The only way to move forward when one has done everything they could do is to do things differently than ever before. Sabrina is the person who acts in the way that won't hurt Rionna. Who else has helped with her problem?
[old] People don't do horrible things without reason. Force is almost always less effective than addressing the underlying problem, answering the reason..
[old] Anri is our example of morality, tell the story

Kaizuki said:

But, again, why the hell couldn't she just rely on us? It might have been that we were too goody-goody, but that didn't even come up until after she decided we couldn't help her...

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One point that I think is worth bringing up...

Grief cleansing that doesn't rely on us being physically present is something we want too. Because requiring us to be present means it doesn't scale. And we can't have people keep using clear seeds forever, not after we solve dewitching (and there's a reasonable argument that we have a moral obligation to take back the clear seeds as soon as possible one we've solved dewitching). We'd been hoping for a while to be able to eventually enchant something like an 'artificial clear seed'.

It's been waaaaaay on the back burner, but it absolutely is something we need to solve eventually. And if it's what Rionna wants too, maybe it's something she can help us with... or would be interested in helping us with other things, at least, to give us time to focus on it.

[X] Aranfan