- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The way the unsanctioned experiments were described reminded me of Mentats.
Edit: Spelling.
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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
-
- Tags
- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
Edit: Spelling.
- Location
- alphen aan den rijn
so i know ppl don`t like the idea but what is keeping us from giving out some of our maybe colony`s to member states??
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Wanting to keep them for RP.
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
Absent the immediate threat to life on the Federation core worlds? Because that was kind of a big thing about why we moved against the Mentats. If the Federation were big on wars of liberation we'd have gone to war with the Cardassians...quite some time ago. At the least at the end of the Gabriel campaign.
pheonix89
Wants to be Seven Of Nine
- Location
- North American Plaguelands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Shanpurr aren't running mad science experiments.
Shanpurr are doing uplift.
PD violations are not created equal.
Escalating to war would really not be OOC given that they're doing planetary scale psuedo-science on prewarp civilizations.
Given the scale of nutty social science we're looking at I give a 5% chance tops stopping them doesn't involve a war. Because they're NOT going to stop. They're going to throw a bitch fit about us running around shutting off the atrocities sooner or later.
We might not shoot first, but I don't see THEM letting us stop them cold without war. Either they try to shoot up an EC ship or TF, or they keep trying to restart experiments and we conclude it's the only option.
I MAY be slightly trigger happy when it comes to people running around experimenting on entire planets for the lulz.
Enough nanomachines to carry out prenatal biological modifications on large chunks of a planet's population?
That was not unsanctioned. Nobody gets the means to do something like that without enough people seeing that someone will report it. Hell how would someone even have ACCESS to the tech for that without going for government channels?
That's either mass mind control or large numbers of privately employed infiltrators.
Either way ... not buying that there wasn't government knowledge before start.
And as far as I'm concerned with shit like this not shutting it down hard the moment you know one of your citizens is doing it is backing. So ... either these people had government backing or mass mind control/mass biomanipulation tech was near totally unregulated.
AKuz
Been Better
- Location
- A Rising Tide of Horrors
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'd like to remind you about John "Turned an Entire planet into literal actial Nazis" Gil.
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The mindset: Experimental data >>> well-being of some.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Both of those examples you cited were of people who were already under arrest and imprisoned under the previous government...
AKuz
Been Better
- Location
- A Rising Tide of Horrors
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Also, like IRL no one is calling for the EU to militarily intervene in Kansas for buying into free market fundamentalism and diving headfusrt into that disastrous experiment.
If the experiments didnt have some level of democratic legitimacy they wouldn't have proceeded. These experiments didnt start off imposed, there was a genuine curiosity to put these separate ideologies into function and see what would happen in the real world.
Nervos Belli
Don't think this means you've won!
- Location
- Murica
Clearly the Chrystovians had major systemic problems that were causing harm to lots of people. But the same is true of the Hishmeri, or the Gorn, or the Ittick-Ka. The Arcadian War set a pretty good threshold for an intervention war in my opinion. Unless you are actively threatening the lives of everyone around you and are either unwilling or incapable of resolving that peacefully, we won't go to war over your internal issues.
- Location
- Illinois
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The fact that this statement is, in fact, true, is rather disturbing.
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
What makes this even worse is that Chrystovian social scientists might allow the Ashalla Pact to close the xenopsychology gap between us.
Depends. Ironically, even as the Cardassians complained about the rogue social science, their menacing forced the Chrystovian fleet away from regular patrols in order to be close to each other in case of surprise attack. The rogue social scientists more underscore the vulnerability of prewarps than a lack of government action -- SFI thinks there's maybe 30 in total who did that, to varying degrees of success and atrocity, and the government at no point even tacitly supported their work. It's more a societal issue, where the rogue scientists were still allowed to publish or disseminate findings as long as proper experimental procedure was followed, without regards to the ethics of the acquisition of the data. Every one of them was a mad dreamer who assumed they could find everlasting glory through tackling some Big Issue; but in general Chrystovian society treated them with utter disgust at best. I assume there must be some mythic Chrystovian folk hero that these Rogue scientists styled themselves after, a sort of sociologist Robin Hood, who saved a bus full of orphans through unorthodox social science or something. Government reform on this was likely slowed by the long-term experiment and the noted apprehension of the government to moderate public and academic discourse.
As for the experiment itself -- No one was really sure about the outcome. Part of the experiment with Kyo was seeing if a population, aware of the oligarchic excesses of other small government capitalist powers, would take action to create a social safety net that did not rely on government, and if these values would degrade over time. However, as Argosolov noted, the nature of the experiment required preventing the population from enacting larger welfare programs and expanding the state, as this would undermine the experiment, but it also meant if things went bad the population had to just ride things out. The participants at the start of the experiment were all willing, but by year 20 an entire generation had grown up on Kyo with an experiment imposed on them, and the government was somewhat paralyzed on by the moral dilemma of allowing some of those citizens to leave if they wanted, or recording their desire to leave but making them remain to see how successive generations navigated the market economy.
Whatever the possible issues with that experiment, however, it is a flimsy excuse at best for invasion. At the time of the Cardassian attack, there was no sophontarian disaster underway, and I'm sure that while Ashalla rhetoric surrounding the intervention was chock full of all sorts of teary-eyed moralizing about the children starving in the street for mad science, we can all see their motivations were not in good faith.
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- Pronouns
- They/Them
If the Obsidian Order didn't have agents embedded in the militaristic, decentralized polity along their frontier they'd be remiss in their duties. However I expect them to ramp things up once they realize what Task Force Righteous is up to.
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
From the last update it didn't seem like a large fleet presence would be required in Chrystovian space ...
We are not getting very many votes. 
Is there a reason why? Do people find the offered plans hard to understand or not know how to evaluate them?
Is there a reason why? Do people find the offered plans hard to understand or not know how to evaluate them?
I suspect that seeing the fate of their neighbors there will be Allupi witchhunts goin on for infiltrators and finding them irrespective of their presence or absence.
pheonix89
Wants to be Seven Of Nine
- Location
- North American Plaguelands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
And I do not buy that the government didn't sign off initially.
Seriously look at the capabilities demonstrated.
No way anyone uses that kind of kit without government authorization.
Are we seriously calling that episode canon here?
Because nobody's doing that without mass mind control ... oh wait Gil wasn't in control so he doesn't have that either. Episode is not internally consistent, must be dismissed or SEVERELY rewritten.
I'd also like to remind you that IIRC nobody knew Gil was even ALIVE till the Enterprise stopped him.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
We are not getting very many votes.
Is there a reason why? Do people find the offered plans hard to understand or not know how to evaluate them?
I'm torn between the supoptimal strategic planning of SWB's vote, and your vote not including the preparations for UP2. Both votes have their issues...
I guess I should actually argue the case for my plan:
1. We did not in face "just get a lot of auxiliary berths" from the federalized shipyards. Did not. The fact that we are still drafting member berths to build auxiliary ships is a good sign we do not have enough auxiliary berths and could use a fourth auxiliary shipyard.
2. It's still a long, long time in the future before we really need a UP2. Even SWB has admitted as much. It's mostly a concern that if we don't do it now we will never do it (which has NEVER proven true; we always get around to the big items eventually) and a security issue of wanting to spread out our shipbuilding capacity more. The fact is that UP is still cheap to expand and can be made bigger with no issues, as I do in my plan.
3. I am giving Risa a starbase, which we should have done fucking years ago. SWB is not.
4. I am taking advantage of Nash being Commadant to get an Explorer Corps Annex. SWB is not.
EDIT: All of which is just me feeling like I need to argue for my plan. Honestly, if SWB wins it won't be a disaster or anything. Even that one mine whose location I don't like... whatever. It can probably become part of the Ruby Eyes' Folly patrol Zone, honestly. It's close enough. I have no issue with most of his choices.
1. We did not in face "just get a lot of auxiliary berths" from the federalized shipyards. Did not. The fact that we are still drafting member berths to build auxiliary ships is a good sign we do not have enough auxiliary berths and could use a fourth auxiliary shipyard.
2. It's still a long, long time in the future before we really need a UP2. Even SWB has admitted as much. It's mostly a concern that if we don't do it now we will never do it (which has NEVER proven true; we always get around to the big items eventually) and a security issue of wanting to spread out our shipbuilding capacity more. The fact is that UP is still cheap to expand and can be made bigger with no issues, as I do in my plan.
3. I am giving Risa a starbase, which we should have done fucking years ago. SWB is not.
4. I am taking advantage of Nash being Commadant to get an Explorer Corps Annex. SWB is not.
EDIT: All of which is just me feeling like I need to argue for my plan. Honestly, if SWB wins it won't be a disaster or anything. Even that one mine whose location I don't like... whatever. It can probably become part of the Ruby Eyes' Folly patrol Zone, honestly. It's close enough. I have no issue with most of his choices.
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ClawClawBite
Mad Engineering!
- Location
- Seattle, WA
[x]Briefvoice
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
This is why I think we absolutely should push through UP2 now that we have the pp to spare for it. We can't keep it on the backburner forever, because we keep getting more big ticket snakepit items as time goes on. The QMs have added 350pp worth of expensive options this time, and in the next three years we'll probably have one or two more new and enticing options that we also can't afford. We want UP2, for security, ship construction, and fluff enthusiasm reasons. Sol System is crowded with ship berths by now, and we both want and need to balance things out with a second location for our massive economic engine to keep churning.
There's been surprisingly little enthusiasm or discussion about which ship refits or new ship designs people want to go for. Which is pretty disappointing, since that was kinda the entire point of my plan. I'm also certain it's too late to try and introduce another plan at this point, so I'll be switching to SWB's plan. I could make a plan with both UP2, the two Rennie refits, and add in the Risa starbase and the Explorer Corps Annex, but this late I doubt it'll get any votes.
[X][COUNCIL] Plan Rennie-Envoy, UP2, Coreward Diplo, Research Colonies
[X][STARKIN] Aerocommando Research Corps (Personal Tech, Skill 4)
[X][STARKIN] Laudon Orbital Construction (Ship Design - Frigate/Starship Construction, Skill 2)
[X][KED] Utopia Planitia Tactical Design Bureau (Weapons/Ship Design - Capital, Skill 3)
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[X][COUNCIL] Briefvoice 2324 Snakepit Plan
[X][STARKIN] Laudon Orbital Construction (Ship Design - Frigate/Starship Construction, Skill 2)
[X][STARKIN] Starfleet Intelligence Office 44 (Diplomatic Analysis) (Foreign Analysis/Communications, Skill 3)
[X][KED] Utopia Planitia Tactical Design Bureau (Weapons/Ship Design - Capital, Skill 3)
Oh right, The vote! Taken care of now.
Highly respected before he went off the deep end.
I also expected so but didn't publicly voice it.
[X][STARKIN] Laudon Orbital Construction (Ship Design - Frigate/Starship Construction, Skill 2)
[X][STARKIN] Starfleet Intelligence Office 44 (Diplomatic Analysis) (Foreign Analysis/Communications, Skill 3)
[X][KED] Utopia Planitia Tactical Design Bureau (Weapons/Ship Design - Capital, Skill 3)
We are not getting very many votes.
Is there a reason why? Do people find the offered plans hard to understand or not know how to evaluate them?
Oh right, The vote! Taken care of now.
Highly respected before he went off the deep end.
I also expected so but didn't publicly voice it.
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