Okay, I've been thinking about this, and I think the problem is that it's hard to imagine what those many ships are productively doing. Like, how many trade conferences and diplomatic transportation can you possibly need?
Imagine a hypothetical scenario where all of those ships are employed doing useful, productive work that is making like better for the powers they're doing diplomacy with. Like, if 12 HoH cruisers/cap ships and were improving the economic efficiency of Luigis's Empire by 1% per quarter he'd be all like, FUCK YES SEND MORE SHIPS. If they're doing something useful and helpful then it doesn't matter how many there are because they're being useful and helpful.
But if you can't imagine them doing things that are useful and helpful, then it's hard to see their purpose as anything other than intimidation.
I'd argue there's limits to how much the ships can be doing beyond the physical. I mean sure they could basically do anything and everything to help but the minor powers can't basically allow the HoH to take over response completely without effectively giving up their independence. Lugis, to use your example, can't let the HoH boost his economy like that because that'd make him dependent on them.
So yeah, after a point HoH and Federation ships that continue to pile up should add nothing to the TF's results simply because they've got nothing to do but glare at each other. Unless you have them run ops to discredit the other guy or mess things up the way the Cardassians have had ships of theirs do at the Gorn front. But you would not want so many ships for that, because it'd be blatant that you are doing it if like half your task force is idle as far as the public is concerned.
Okay, I've been thinking about this, and I think the problem is that it's hard to imagine what those many ships are productively doing. Like, how many trade conferences and diplomatic transportation can you possibly need?
Imagine a hypothetical scenario where all of those ships are employed doing useful, productive work that is making like better for the powers they're doing diplomacy with. Like, if 12 HoH cruisers/cap ships and were improving the economic efficiency of Luigis's Empire by 1% per quarter he'd be all like, FUCK YES SEND MORE SHIPS. If they're doing something useful and helpful then it doesn't matter how many there are because they're being useful and helpful.
But if you can't imagine them doing things that are useful and helpful, then it's hard to see their purpose as anything other than intimidation.
Iron Wolf put it quite perfectly - the ships are dual purpose. If you use them to save kittens that doesn't change anything about the fact that you can use them to glass the planet. Or the palace(s) of the obstructionist nobles.
I can imagine what the ships are doing. They run around catching pirates and attending conferences and rooting out corruption and establishing infrastructure just like we do, and I don't think there really is a limit.
But. With 10 big ships and 12+ corvettes doing this you have replaced the Licori or OSA navy. You are in effect running their space. Oh, you would never dream of impinging on their sovereignty, and of course you are here at their liberty and service. But in effect? Yeah pretty much.
As IW pointed out in discord the TF system is kind of fucked up because you deploy a fleet to make someone your friend. But the solution to being stuck in that isn't to double down, much the opposite.
As IW pointed out in discord the TF system is kind of fucked up because you deploy a fleet to make someone your friend. But the solution to being stuck in that isn't to double down, much the opposite.
The Licori characters I've written and have any creative control over will all be very the hell aware and wary of this situation. Because this is in fact a big enough force to conquer them, and they know it. And they know the Federation doesn't like the Arcadian Empire very much, and frankly they are not at all sure the Federation would stop the Harmony from conquering them.
That's not me trying to control the game, it's just that I can't imagine anyone not worrying in that situation. They'd be just as worried if it were a Federation fleet doing the same thing.
Could they roll up with a doomstack and support a democratic revolution in Licori space? Probably. Some members of our thread would be tempted to applaud, after all.
Could they support a transfer of power in Felis space? Probably; Felis governmental power is limited and very decentralized, and it might be hard for outsiders or for that matter insiders to even realize anything had happened. So the balance of power shifts from one set of corporations, quangos, and administrations, to another. So what?
And Bolias? Who knows what kind of government the Bolians have, or if it could be... creatively affected by a giant fleet in orbit above the capital, one that is in a position to not only fight things but also Science and Presence the bejeebers out of the locals?
I mean, the combat firepower of those fleets isn't the only problem. The problem is that the Harmony fleets in the region are strong enough that they cannot be compelled to leave. Very like the situation the ISC faced a century ago, when Harmony fleets first created a problem on ISC worlds, then sent a fleet 'to help out,' then offered to 'keep the peace' in a civil conflict they'd triggered from behind the scenes, then refused to leave after it was revealed that they'd created the bioweapons and assassinated key civilian leaders to bring about the civil conflict. War ensued. ISC citizens died in considerable numbers because of Harmony intrusion, Harmony treachery, and Harmony refusal to comply with eminently reasonable instructions to withdraw.
The Harmony could do this again. We would like to think they couldn't or wouldn't, but we have very little evidence that they've changed in this respect, only that they haven't found it opportune to try such things where we can see them. And against someone with less internal security and less skillful detective work than the ISC employed, it is conceivable that they could get away with it. A prospect very alarming to governments in the region that are aware of this background.
Ultimately, it is very hard to assert one's sovereignty in the face of a direct armed force one cannot compel to leave. While you can hope and pray that this force has only benevolent intentions, you cannot know it will, nor do you have any security in the event that it doesn't.
Except, well, the Federation's willingness to go to war to preserve the independence and autonomy of an independent power. At which point... well, this year, everyone in the galaxy starts going " *cough* Chrystovia *cough.* "
If the Harmony pulled something like that, they would be obligated to heavily garrison any and all captured population centers with trained warm bodies - never cheap, that - while watching literally all of their carefully crafted propaganda evaporate into so much empty starlight. They've had their own Space Vietnam, and there's no way they are stupid enough to go for another round of that while multiple peers nearby are looking at them funny.
Alternatively, they are subtle and clever enough to engineer a situation in which local forces do all the occupation work while they sit behind the scenes and orchestrate.
I bet if the Harmony had occupied Bajor, they would have had no trouble at all organizing a new secular government and establishing control over the planet while making everyone think it was the Bajorans' idea in the first place. The Cardassians are only having to resort to increasingly brutal force because they suck at presence/diplomacy.
Starfleet couldn't stop the Cardassians from pulling stunts because we had nowhere near enough assets to matter in the area, no means of supplying any force sent out and nothing but bad guys in the way. The situation on the border with the Harmony of Horizon is the exact opposite; Starfleet has ties with most of the minor powers in the area and two other major powers are positioned to send and supply battle squadrons and wolfpack formations of their own, with a third waiting in the wings.
The Harmony of Horizon has sent all those ships because they have to bring their A-game in order to compete diplomatically; Starfleet's presence in the area means they literally have no other viable option that does not risk the total destruction of the Harmony as an astropolitical entity.
Again, I'm not saying the Harmony actually intends to conquer this region, or even to use 'non-conquering' tactics that culminate with them ruling the border region (e.g. fomenting revolutions in their favor).
What I'm saying is, they have enough force to do that. And the local governments know this, and are either incredibly brave or incredibly stupid if they aren't worried about the prospect. Because it's not like they could stop the Harmony from doing it on their own. Bluntly, we should be worrying too, because while we could stop the Harmony from doing such things, it wouldn't be easy.
I don't see anything wrong in itself, but that was never the point of what I was talking about. My point is, they are skirting the edge of the kind of thing you can do that, while not technically wrong, places others in reasonable fear of treachery or attack. Like, the equivalent of marching all your units into the middle of an allied player's base in a strategy game and just leaving them there; the allied player may reasonably be concerned that you may intend to launch a sneak attack.
It's not that this action of theirs is immoral, or even somehow only explicable in the context of them planning treachery. It's that it gives them the power to commit treachery at any time.
It's like, I figure you're probably a good person. But if we met in the flesh and you asked for permission to wrap your hands around my throat, while promising not to squeeze, I would say "no." Even if you had some perfectly well intentioned reason that you could patiently explain to me, I would say "no," because I'm not comfortable being handled that way, or being that helpless, to the extent of being so completely at another person's mercy. I'd ask you to keep a bit more distance and separation, so that I had some assurance of safety and survival besides just "I promise not to hurt you even when you let me do it."
And I hope you'd understand why, even if it isn't wrong as such to ask me for permission to put your hands around my neck, I'd still say 'no' and be disturbed by the request.
I think it's the other way around. The Felis being flipped by the Harmony is likely to have direct and very serious narrative consequences- if we can't get the OSA on-side and shift resources to deal with that I'm going to worry.But the Licori are very strategically important to the Federation, because at this point they are by far the closest pocket of potentially hostile space to the Federation 'heartland.'
Last year between TF Beyond and TF Unity we had:
9 Capitals
7 Cruisers
20 Frigates
cruising around that same area. Not quite as many ships, but I promise you it was enough to fight both the Licori and the OSA fleets together if we had needed to.
Yes, and that was the point. The entire point of that force being there was to strongly discourage the Licori and OSA and Laio from fighting at all, and once they did start fighting, to make it very obvious that attacking any Federation asset or committing any grave and major atrocities would be a disastrously bad idea. Those task forces were supposed to be in a position to threaten entire national navies and indirectly compel them to obey our wishes, our wishes being "don't break our stuff in your stupid fight, and sit down and stop fighting."
The Harmony is bringing that same kind of power to the table. And when you lay the big iron on the table, people notice and care. I'm not even saying they're in the wrong here, just that people are going to notice, care, and worry.
I really hope the GMs just ignore all of this, hunker down, and continue on.
If nobody in the region reacts to this as a serious threat, then I for one will eat my suspension of disbelief.
I'm not saying the Harmony are evil or in the wrong, just that what they're doing is a big deal. When we do it that is ALSO a big deal. Note that TF Unity and to a lesser extent Beyond reshaped the entire astropolitics of the region in quite noticeable ways over the past several years...
Okay, I've been thinking about this, and I think the problem is that it's hard to imagine what those many ships are productively doing. Like, how many trade conferences and diplomatic transportation can you possibly need?
Imagine a hypothetical scenario where all of those ships are employed doing useful, productive work that is making life better for the powers they're doing diplomacy with. Like, if 12 HoH cruisers/cap ships and were improving the economic efficiency of Luigis's Empire by 1% per quarter he'd be all like, FUCK YES SEND MORE SHIPS. If they're doing something useful and helpful then it doesn't matter how many there are because they're being useful and helpful.
But if you can't imagine them doing things that are useful and helpful, then it's hard to see their purpose as anything other than intimidation.
If we get the opportunity, some sort of Imelak culture intelligence report would be great. Right now I don't feel like I understand what they want and how they operate and what their long term ambitions are.
But only to help understand the Bolians the merits of the Harmony. The Breen will understand. Besides, they are currently occupied with their Confederacy building and won't have time to notice such things (like surprise Romulan warbirds for example).
To put it into perspective, when we were discussing how intervention against the Cardassians could work we estimated a force approximately the size of the HoH additions here to start. Such a force was intended, through sheer size and proximity alone, to shatter business as usual with the Cardassians and force them to react.
Adding 20 large ships to the border should likewise shatter business as usual here, both for the minors and for us. I have no doubt that the HoH can in fact choose to deploy 1/3 their fleet and, given time, smooth over that act. But the act in of itself should be quadrant-scale disruptive.
I'm reasonably convinced by the argument that our ships are most efficiently spent improving relations (or at least trying to maintain parity with the Harmony) in polities where the FDS would have greater difficulty in their own efforts. Taking the OSA off the table and then doubling down on the Licori isn't an unreasonable choice, but seems less ideal strategically, as abandoning the Bolians would enable the Harmony to consolidate this task force on just the Licori and Felis in the twoish years (?) it takes them to pull the Bolians entirely into their sphere of influence if they are left uncontested.
Having had a few hours to mull the situation over, I suppose it all depends on if we're confident we can seal the deal with the OSA using Diplopushes alone. If other players are confident that we can do so, then I would feel confident switching to either Licori-Felis or Licori-Boolians.
I just do not feel like the Bolians are worth it strategically to waste so much time on them all 3 of the others are but if there is one I could live without it would be them.
Adhoc vote count started by Rhinohunter on Aug 3, 2018 at 3:05 AM, finished with 289 posts and 48 votes.
I mean, the Harmony is a military peer power and at least a diplomatic peer. Chances are we aren't going to win 4-0 (3-0 if we trust the ISC to hold the Felis) against a concerted push by them to secure their strategic interests across their Rimward frontier.
The Bolians are the least-worst loss strategically, in my view.
Another worry looking ahead is that resolving the diplomatic situation with the Felis might be exactly the ISC-Harmony flashpoint that provokes continuance through 'diplomacy by other means', as neither party may be willing to accept the implications of the Felis committing to the other.
Wouldn't change the decision, we don't sell military technology. I stand by the arguments made. Your consequentialist perspective is no more valid now than it was then, because we were specifically arguing against that consequentialism from an entirely different point of principle.
42 cruisers and capitals in expeditionary force pattern would approximate to
3 Sanctuary-class (C24)
3 Choreographer-class (C15)
6 Liberator (C56)
18 Scientist (C36)
12 Solace (C72)
30 Virtuoso (C120)
24 Alert (C24)
TOTAL: C347, or C87 for each of the four powers.
Keep in mind this DOES NOT INCLUDE the expeditionary force already in Felis space. That force alone should be ~C86.
So C172 for the Felis, C87 for the OSA, Licori, and Bolians. Or perhaps C108 for each of the four.
I can agree with that. i think the bigger issue is that the player base is having a hard time figuring out how the HoH is doing this, that there little warning of it, and that it happened just as we were going to start snowballing to victory. These combined makes the situation hard to swallow and it generates alot of suspicion that the QMs are forcing things in the background to get certain results. I dont think this is the case but with how the whole phaser array thing went down <_< i can see how people can get that idea.
I think that alot of the heat would go away if an explanation, even a tenative one like an intel report, on how they are doing this was given.
It doesn't matter how the HoH got these ships. It does matter that apparently this provocation is not supposed to be seen as provocative because fiat says so.
Yeah, and that was a war fleet and we had the local powers looking at us funny (but were too busy to really respond) and the Licori fought a war to stop those ships trampling on their self determination.
And now a similarly sized "diplomacy" fleet is on the Licori doorstep and you are saying we shouldn't take this with due seriousness?
Just to stress here.
I do not have a problem with the HoH deploying a big fleet. I do not have a problem with the HoH beating the Federation at its own game.
What I have a problem with is the HoH deploying a big fleet and characters in game saying "relax, don't worry, this is a taskforce, we can see this because it uses the taskforce rules, so we know that the HoH won't deploy any military power". Characters inside the game know that the HoH have deployed a fleet that can bully the borderlands with impunity and cause serious damage to the Federation itself if the Federation doesn't take this with the due seriousness their grandfathers treated Klingon battlefleets with.
I also have a problem with the HoH deploying a big fleet and characters in the game saying "oh, we trust them to just do diplomacy, even though they can handily conquer the region and glass a few planets before we can stop them, that's fine, we don't need to take any precautions".
They have precautions, particularly the bordering powers and the Federation
I'm actually not opposed to adding a "sticker shock" tag the Harmony have to get through. But then like... if you go that big you'd have to deal with it too. Or it's hypocritical.
To put it into perspective, when we were discussing how intervention against the Cardassians could work we estimated a force approximately the size of the HoH additions here to start.
So just these additions, let alone their forces already operating in the area, were equivalent to a brinkmanship fleet we were intending as all but a declaration of war against the Ashalla Pact? Yikes. The astropolitical impact of that should be serious.
They have precautions, particularly the bordering powers and the Federation
I'm actually not opposed to adding a "sticker shock" tag the Harmony have to get through. But then like... if you go that big you'd have to deal with it too. Or it's hypocritical.
It feels like it should be something related to the size of the TF vs the size of the power(s) fleets it's operating in. Based on C? And/or the 'MWCD draft points' of 2 for a Cap, 1 for a Cruiser, .5 for a frigate? If your force could be handled by their navy/a friendly neighbour/patron, no-ones too worried. (Your total TF C some factor less than their fleet C).
If on the otherhand you can roll them overnight...
It'd take much less of a 'friendly fleet of supertech ships outclassing every ship of yours, even comparing their Cruisers to your Capitals' to intimidate the Laio or Tauni than the Honiani, Ked Paddah or say Breen.
As IW pointed out in discord the TF system is kind of fucked up because you deploy a fleet to make someone your friend. But the solution to being stuck in that isn't to double down, much the opposite.
I'm actually not opposed to adding a "sticker shock" tag the Harmony have to get through. But then like... if you go that big you'd have to deal with it too. Or it's hypocritical.
As I've said before, I think we should have limitations to taskforces.
So far taskforces have had a certain amount of trek feel. But I think we want to avoid them getting too big outside of special events.
Concentrated military force should cause backlash when used in a provocative way, and I like the way it re-enforces the "not an empire" theme.
If, in some future day, Starfleet is overwhelmingly powerful compared to the neighbours, I like the idea that we'll still have some limits like "what's the appropriate size of Taskforce to send to evacuate people from the Caldonia supernova that won't upset our Klingon allies?"
I think it should be based on the size of the great powers that were concerned in the region. So one could deploy 100 ships to deal with a problem on a one planet minor power (but why would you?) but when operating in an area where the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, HoH or ISC had some interest (which could overlap), taskforces would need to be limited to some portion of that power's military power.
This of course could mean that we send a taskforce into Breen space that is small enough that the HoH aren't alarmed (but still counter with a normal diplomacy taskforce), but is large enough that the Romulans are alarmed, meaning they mobilize their forces, send off huffy diplomatic letters and are generally extremely twitchy, meaning we have to clear a tag to stop border incidents with twitchy Romulans shooting at anything that looks too dangerous, or face a war if the tag goes into negative territory.
Theoretically.
