[X] We should intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.

I've tried to resist. But the call out from our neighboring major powers is giving me all the peer pressure pushing.

But, if we do intervene, I'm voting for the version where we put pressure on the Pact borders, not the send a force out of support range to get cut off.
 
[X] We should intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.

I've tried to resist. But the call out from our neighboring major powers is giving me all the peer pressure pushing.

But, if we do intervene, I'm voting for the version where we put pressure on the Pact borders, not the send a force out of support range to get cut off.
Peer pressure is bad. The HoH is clearly manipulating us so they can nom our Corewards neighbors while we're busy and the ISC is.... well, they're slightly insane. Or paranoid at the very least. Their intervention philosophy is pretty flawed in any case, following it is going to be a pretty bad idea.
 
Peer pressure is bad. The HoH is clearly manipulating us so they can nom our Corewards neighbors while we're busy and the ISC is.... well, they're slightly insane. Or paranoid at the very least. Their intervention philosophy is pretty flawed in any case, following it is going to be a pretty bad idea.

I think the ISC genuinely doesn't understand why you wouldn't go to war with an enemy if you stood a reasonable chance of victory. I feel like they're barely wrapping their head around the whole Casus Belli thing as it is, and have interpreted it as "needing an excuse to go to war" rather than "having a reason to go to war."

Let them think we're cowards all they like. We're the ones that apply soft power to peacefully reform oppressive regimes rather than conquer them and attempting to rewire their entire government and culture by force.
 
Those are some of my thoughts What do you think the Federation's ideals are?
For thread discussion, I don't think I can put it better than I did on Discord:

[12:07 AM] swb: I would put the right to self determination right at the top of Federation ideals, because it's broader than just forming governments, and so many Federation principles follow from it. Both the pre-warp non-interference Prime Directive and the "don't interfere with how a society is run presuming it isn't interfering with someone else's". The idea of cultural contamination of younger species. Without the ideal of self determination, you can't have IDIC.
[12:08 AM] swb: And following from it: why the Federation doesn't do military expansion, why the Federation wants a at least some democracy, why the Federation gives each world big enough to count a Councilor...
[12:09 AM] swb: Even why TNG and its movies made so many weird PD decisions
[12:10 AM] swb: hell, why the Federation includes (and indeed was born from) a military alliance
[12:10 AM] swb: it all follows from that one point
[12:12 AM] Briefvoice: SWB I get what you're saying, but I kind of push self-determination down the list because it's so often self-contradictory.
[12:12 AM] swb: an ideal is self-contradictory
[12:12 AM] swb: when you try to put it in practice
[12:14 AM] swb: I feel it's necessary to understand the guiding principles (rather than the hard fast deterministic rules) by putting the number one guiding principle that guides all the other principles right on top

Anyway, bedtime.
 
Protecting self-determination sounds nice and all that, but given our track record it's also something the Federation just doesn't do, otherwise we'd have tried to liberate Bajor ages ago. Nor is it something we should want to try to do, unless you want to be dragged into an eternal war with quite a few of our neighbors.
 
I am not changing my vote. Those that vote against military intervention knew that this was going to happen, as we were never in the position to have a hope in hell of protecting the Christovans from the Cardassians unless we did a major re-orientation to them, and would likely do nothing but provoke the same response from Cardassia as Bajor did, and we'd be in this situation years ago.

If anything, our efforts, meager as they were, probably delayed them being conquered for years, and with the right diplomatic efforts, can help make sure that their occupation is far less brutal than it would have been as well.

We are the Federation of Planets, and we're going to diplomance our way through this crisis, not get billions killed in a Great Power War, which will likely touch off several minor power wars as we're distracted, leading to even more deaths.



This is not an Empire Quest.
 
I believe there's something that hasn't been considered nearly enough in all this voting. Something far, far more important than any foreign policy considerations:

The Federation does not have the political will to fight a war with the Ashalla Pact over this issue.



It's a simple fact. Look at the update:

This report will only cover those with strong opinions.

Pacifists
Perhaps surprisingly, the Pacifists are divided on the issue. While no one wants to see a general war, there is significant disagreement over if the Cardassian aggression is worth fighting over. Indeed, their caucus seems split mostly along regional lines.

Hawks
Interestingly, the Hawks are also divided. The Amarki are eager to rush in to chivalrously defend the Chrystovians, but other members of the Hawk caucus think there are more pressing security matters - Harmony, the Gorn, the Ittick-ka, the Breen, even the Klingons - that would be undermined by committing enough ships to give the Cardassians pause. Or indeed, ones that would be abandoned entirely in the event of a general war.

Mercantilists And Development
Both are weakly opposed. They believe any Federation intervention will lead to a general war.

Expansionist
The Expansionists are tentatively in favor of some form of assistance, but seem willing to let the Pacifists take the lead. They believe that saving the Chystovians will secure them as affiliates, and eventually members, securing an outpost for further expeditions and contacts.

Tellar
The Tellarites are somewhat neutral, or even surprisingly apathetic. One thing they are very clear on, however: they will become very angry if this war reduces the level of Starfleet service in Tellar sector. The memory of missed missions still lingers, and is heightened by Federalization.

Vulcan
All Vulcan councillors, including T'Jal, are strongly opposed to intervention. They want to keep the focus on the Harmony of Horizon, and are worried the Breen might use a general war as an excuse to expand aggressively towards, or even seize, Federation territory, as they did with the Romulans.

United Earth
United Earth's Councillors, and the general public, appear to be in favor of armed conflict. Many have drawn explicit comparisons between the creeping actions of authoritarians in their past, and the actions of the Cardassians. They think force may be the only way to contain further threats.

Amarkia
As noted above, the Amarkians would love nothing more than to send their ships into direct action against the Cardassians, in defense of an oppressed people. It is likely you will not have to pay any political cost to recruit their ships into such a venture.

Sarquel Treaty Organization and Indorians
The councilors who represent the worlds of the STO and the Indorian Congress are strongly opposed to intervention. Their fleet is still building up, and they believe they are not yet ready to fully defend Rethelia in a general war. In the event an intervention mission is launched, they will not make any ships available for any task force.

Apiata
The Apiata are generally undecided on intervention. Along with the Indorians and the STO, they are on the frontlines of any conflict with the Cardassians. In the event of an intervention, they will have to be vigilant on the border, and will not be able to contribute any ships to external task forces, forcing the recall of the queenship teams already deployed on the other side of the Federation.

Ashidi
The Ashidi are hesitant. One part of them would like to end the ceaseless fear of Cardassian invasion by striking back. The others fear what could be lost in a war that doesn't, strictly speaking, need to be fought. They will focus on home defense and will not contribute any ships to a task force nor to a United Fleet.

On the whole, it evens out. There is support for going to war, yes, but there is also strong opposition, and a lot of the support is rather lukewarm. This is not nearly enough for us to enter a major war where we will most certainly have to mobilize the economy and absorb severe losses. All it takes to destroy this level of commitment is one or two defeats, and then the Cardassians can force us to the negotiating table where we will have to cave in - and there will be defeats, that's more or less inevitable in a conflict on this scale.

If we had a mutual defense treaty with Chrystovia, or if they were one of our affiliates, I imagine the situation would be very different. If all our members felt about this like Amarkia or United Earth, things would be very different. In that case, I would be advocating we Praise the Federation Charter and Pass the Photon Torpedoes right now. Because if the Federation were to really put its back into it, I am convinced that we could crush the Ashalla Pact.

But that is not the situation we face. The situation we face is that we must not get involved in a war that we would very likely lose.

[x] We should not intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
 
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Because we can't. We need a reason to go to war. A moral stance might let someone pick to choose [X] Intervene,but it won't manufscture the vote ex nihilo. If a vote to go to war to free the people under the romulans came up under similar circumstances, especially if it was the pre-wenlai romulans, I personally would have voted to take it. Its disingenous to call hypocrisy at people not voting for a result on a vote when that vote has literally never come up.
Only "free N from Klingon yoke" is as much reason to war as "protect Chrystovians". Moral wise they are same and legalize-wise neither have ground for intervention beyond "BUT SUFFERING!". And we had perfect chance to free all of Klingon clients and outright slaves when they were at they weakest which we didn't took. And they probably still weaker than Cardassians.

PS. And it's not like Klingons don't have tendency to throw everybody they dislike on their "nice" prison planet. Or horribly oppress everybody that is weaker.
 
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We had a treaty with the Klingons to not invade them. Ditto with the Romulans.

Unless we were willing to outright conquer both Empires, it just wasn't and isn't feasible.
 
You're sort of glossing over the part where by the time we assemble our fleets, the Cardies will have already have pretty much won, at which point all of their military can focus on making the lives of Federation citizens as miserable as possible while we try to bull our way though their Bajor defences.
No, that was the scenario for after our miraculous win that won't happen.
 
Omake - Green Trim Blues - Night
Green Trim Blues
"You're not happy to be here." In theory, the security shop on an Excelsior was run by officers. But officers were transitory things. The six security teams each had an Ensign in charge, who was more or less told that until they were a JG they were in the second stage of their training and could be overruled by the Chief Petty Officer who was their team XO. Branwen, who was theoretically running the whole thing, was seconded by Malark ap Grann, a Tellarite Master Chief Petty Officer whose service history traced back to the Battle of Kadesh aboard the Sarek and whose suggestions arguably carried more weight in the security shop than the Captain's orders.

Branwen regarded the Master Chief for two seconds before responding, settling into sardonic grin. "No, not particularly. No disrespect to you or your troops, Master Chief. But if I wanted to be a Ranger, I would still be a Ranger. I took tactical and command courses in the Academy."

ap Grann snorted in amusement. "You didn't try very hard to escape it, either. Volunteered to get yourself six days in sickbay, too. Are you really surprised it came back to haunt you, Lieutenant?"

"How many times did Kirk end up having to settle issues with a fistfight?" Branwen asked rhetorically. "I remember the needs of the service trump my feelings, Master Chief. Besides, no permanent marks is a pretty small price to pay for containing the Pact all things considered." Branwen paused and her head dropped slightly, then raised again. "And we are close to Chrystovian space, as the crow flies. If Royal sprinted across Ittick-ka space...they might let us. This is exactly the sort of thing they fear their neighbors will do to them."

ap Grann unconsciously rubbed his hip. Apparently the scuttlebutt that he'd been burned by an EPS vent at Kadesh had some basis in fact. "I don't think we'll do that. The Ittick-ka are a big question-mark and we'd be late to the party anyways. Then the Cardassians would grind us under. I've done one forlorn hope in my life. You only get one."

Branwen raised her eyebrows. "I've done three, Master Chief."

"Three? No wonder you quit being a Ranger." ap Grann's boggling at her may have been faux-serious, but Tellarite sarcasm was an art too well-developed to be sure. "Phaser drills. Lots of phaser drills. And we'll have to start issuing more to non-Security personnel."

"The XO will lose their mind." Branwen pointed out mildly. Discipline was usually the province of the XO, and there was nothing quite so horrifying to contemplated from a shipboard discipline standpoint as half or more of the crew having working phasers. Weapons beyond personal daggers like those of the Amarki or the occasional larger bladed weapon kept in someone's quarters were the province of designated security personnel aboard ship. The captain and XO were also in theory allowed to go about armed, but it was a privilege few availed themselves of. Members of away teams had weapons issued to them before they left the ship if required, and taken back from them when they returned. An Excelsior was at least a decent-sized town in the sky, with a crew of eight hundred, and it was vastly easier to maintain order if security was the only group with weapons.

"The XO wants to live. Imelak bioplasma burning through their chest tends to ruin that." But the lesson of Endurance at Deva had been that a ship going into combat should issue weapons to all qualified hands before battle commenced, and that more was better. Once a serious boarding action was underway, it was often too late.

"Imelak stormtroopers tend not to be real until one's actually in front of you. I speak from experience." Branwen shook her head. "I don't know, maybe the XO's experience with Orion cyaugs back during the Anti-Slavery Task Force taught them better. But it's the book, and I suppose I'll just have to sell it to the XO if they don't like it. Or at least to the Captain."

"See, you already have the important part of the job down. Security is basically negotiating with the Captain to let you do your job despite the fact it interferes with the smooth and quick running of everything else." Once again it was impossible to be sure if the Tellarite was serious or sarcastic.
 
For those arguing that the Federation doesn't step in to stop conquests like the Ashalla Pact is currently performing. Canonical they do, for evidence Organia. Even before the reveal of being energy beings the Federation put a major battle fleet in system to drive out the Klingon Empire.

The longer we wait to put a check to their expansion the harder it will get. At this point we have Allies. Will we next time?
 
I wonder how long it would take for Cardassia to subdue the 4 majors worlds of the Confederacy and any minor planets with whatever defences and traps they have to buy time or make the invasion costly.
Sure they upgraded their tech but the Chrystovian would done the same plus they could have access to whatever intel Starfleet have on those ships.

Since non intervention is winning I hope we or they can pull an Dunkirk to ferry most of their civilians and tech out along with resource denial. I mean non intervention does allow self defence if we are escorting a refugee exodus right?
Of course we might have to deal with those Imelak's bioengineer cosmosoas attacking our ships in the journey in style of sea serpents or krakens attack ships at sea which does have plausible deniability to it.
 
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For those arguing that the Federation doesn't step in to stop conquests like the Ashalla Pact is currently performing. Canonical they do, for evidence Organia. Even before the reveal of being energy beings the Federation put a major battle fleet in system to drive out the Klingon Empire.

The longer we wait to put a check to their expansion the harder it will get. At this point we have Allies. Will we next time?


Thing is we simply aren't ready, Christovia is a one system polity and the only other polity in range of the Ashalla pact is on the far side from us. but we probably can lay the groundwork to let the Cardies know that if they go for it, we will strike.

Now? it is silly, it won't add that much power to cardassia, and it will force us to send a commitment of forces to a place we really can't support over a period of time that will make the mission moot.
And if we wait we will be far stronger than the Ashalla pact, two of our border members AREN'T ready for war, there is no sugar coating that.
 
Protecting self-determination sounds nice and all that, but given our track record it's also something the Federation just doesn't do, otherwise we'd have tried to liberate Bajor ages ago. Nor is it something we should want to try to do, unless you want to be dragged into an eternal war with quite a few of our neighbors.
Every legal principle or ideal that has ever existed had to be balanced against other ideals, other principles, and simple practicality. The Federation does protect self-determination, but it does so in the sense that (for instance) modern civilized democracies promote free speech: some of the time, and not at literally every cost literally every time it could conceivably be done.

It has never been realistic for the Federation to just jump the Cardassians out of the blue as you imply they should/would have done. That doesn't mean the Federation literally never considers the principle of self-determination worth fighting for.

Since non intervention is winning I hope we or they can pull an Dunkirk to ferry most of their civilians and tech out along with resource denial. I mean non intervention does allow self defence if we are escorting a refugee exodus right?
We won't be in any position to do any such thing.

Now? it is silly, it won't add that much power to cardassia, and it will force us to send a commitment of forces to a place we really can't support over a period of time that will make the mission moot.
And if we wait we will be far stronger than the Ashalla pact, two of our border members AREN'T ready for war, there is no sugar coating that.
If we wait, the Ashalla Pact will also be stronger than it is now. The next provocation will almost certainly be timed for a time when our border members feel unready for war, due to a prior crisis or due to simple "but the border's been quiet for years!" activity, because the Cardassians can time their activities for our moments of maximum feeling-insecure. Our ships will be better, but so will theirs.

And next time we'll be threatening to fight in defense of (probably, unless we're lucky) the Allupii, who are a bunch of feudalists who whip their commoners, with the Cardassians' trumped-up casus belli probably being something like "oh yeah, they straight up attacked us." The Allupii are even harder for us to help or defend than the Chrystovians, any reasonable sized task force in Allupii space would just be fruit for the Cardassians to reach out and pluck long before we could reinforce it, and any reinforcements we send would have to fly around or through the entirety of Ashalla Pact space to reach them.

The whole thing would be as likely become a disaster as intervention with the Chrystovians, so talking like it'll be a GOOD idea to intervene then, while talking like it's a bad idea now, doesn't make a lot of sense. Us having a treaty with the Allupii just means that in theory we've promised to do something you assure us would be self-destructive.
 
@Simon_Jester Whether we might be in a better position in the future or not still doesn't change the fact that we are in a pretty bad position right now, as already explained before.
 
@Simon_Jester Whether we might be in a better position in the future or not still doesn't change the fact that we are in a pretty bad position right now, as already explained before.
But we aren't in a bad position right now. The idea that our position is bad is bullshit. Our position is that we can smash a 1 month fleet and then smash a 3 month fleet, and that there are serious assets right on the border that we can threaten. Even if we had a supported fleet pre-positioned in Chrystovian space that would be a worse position. In order for it to be better the only way would be to wish the Imelak not to exist. Plus we have two allies committing actual assets that we could not count on at any other time.
 
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Given that the Cardassians can time provocations as they wish... We'll always be in a position to think our position is bad. They'll never wait for the moment of maximum convenience to us in order to attack. The border nations will never feel ready unless they're the ones being attacked, and even then they won't feel ready.

At least right now we have a large tranche of ships coming in from federalization and coming off of task force duty as Unity can be wound down. We don't have masses of ships already in the refit docks. And we have two major powers prepared to send task forces to help one way or another.
 
If we wait, the Ashalla Pact will also be stronger than it is now. The next provocation will almost certainly be timed for a time when our border members feel unready for war, due to a prior crisis or due to simple "but the border's been quiet for years!" activity, because the Cardassians can time their activities for our moments of maximum feeling-insecure. Our ships will be better, but so will theirs.

And next time we'll be threatening to fight in defense of (probably, unless we're lucky) the Allupii, who are a bunch of feudalists who whip their commoners, with the Cardassians' trumped-up casus belli probably being something like "oh yeah, they straight up attacked us." The Allupii are even harder for us to help or defend than the Chrystovians, any reasonable sized task force in Allupii space would just be fruit for the Cardassians to reach out and pluck long before we could reinforce it, and any reinforcements we send would have to fly around or through the entirety of Ashalla Pact space to reach them.

The whole thing would be as likely become a disaster as intervention with the Chrystovians, so talking like it'll be a GOOD idea to intervene then, while talking like it's a bad idea now, doesn't make a lot of sense. Us having a treaty with the Allupii just means that in theory we've promised to do something you assure us would be self-destructive.

They will get stronger, yes, but not more than us will, the proportionality will play in our favor here, we are bigger, we have a better way of expanding our sphere of influence and we simply value knowledge far more than they do.
Also, in the mean time, we can offer some treaties to the Allupi, make it clear to cardassia that if they go for it *it will be war* and either set up some logistical tail, or have a straight to Cardassia plan ready, and giving the border members time to be more prepared...

More to the point, in Allupi, Cardassia would be operating at the edge of their logistic train, so we could work raiders to make things uncomfortable for them as well, if we have prepared the ground first, and I don't see Cardassia launching that op in less than a few years...
And given the time, and the effort and the time for political statements, we won't need to race to Allupi to defend them, we might even have a task force in place, with stockpiles and local industries capable of supporting us, with our border members ready,... so, no. sorry Simon, you are mistaken
 
They will get stronger, yes, but not more than us will, the proportionality will play in our favor here, we are bigger, we have a better way of expanding our sphere of influence and we simply value knowledge far more than they do.
Also, in the mean time, we can offer some treaties to the Allupi, make it clear to cardassia that if they go for it *it will be war* and either set up some logistical tail, or have a straight to Cardassia plan ready, and giving the border members time to be more prepared...

More to the point, in Allupi, Cardassia would be operating at the edge of their logistic train, so we could work raiders to make things uncomfortable for them as well, if we have prepared the ground first, and I don't see Cardassia launching that op in less than a few years...
And given the time, and the effort and the time for political statements, we won't need to race to Allupi to defend them, we might even have a task force in place, with stockpiles and local industries capable of supporting us, with our border members ready,... so, no. sorry Simon, you are mistaken

The Allupii have actual military might. They could legitimately fight an invasion force and can't be just invaded out of the blue like Bajor was-the Cardassians would need to plan an actual campaign. That's not even going into the fact that resolving Distant Stars tags gives us actual options to help them that don't exist for the Chrystovians.
 
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