Nervos Belli
Don't think this means you've won!
- Location
- Murica
[X] We should intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
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- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Ok, so who's next on the agenda? The Klingons? The Gorn? The Ittick-ka? Better choose carefully because whoever you don't pick will see the writing on the wall. Autocrats pushed together will make for fantastic allies-I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that this action could see the birth of a Klingon-Cardassian axis, given the Klingons' love of conquering and Renhadd's terror dreams of a unipolar quadrant aligned against him.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
I find a Klingon-Cardassian axis specifically unlikely, because everyone knows that the Federation has had it's issues with Cardassia, Klingon relations with the Federation, Klingon current military weakness..
I believe the ISC has implicitly accused the Harmony of conducting biowarfare attacks on them as a prelude to offering help and then annexing them.
There was also an episode where the Tauni were trying to find data on a medical station - One they believed to have damning evidence against the HoH.
Chaos Blade
Procrastinating Writer
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
you do realize that if the klingons see we are going after authoritarian regimes that enslave other species, the Cardassians are their most natural of allies?
It's basically an argument for war for the sake of war, that this is a good opportunity to really causes the Cardassian military pain at the cost of accepting lesser pain for ourselves. The Chrystovians are irrelevant except as a convenient excuse in this conception.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
You don't think Renhadd will take note of the Federation and Harmony cooperating on a Space Police action on behalf of a power neither of them has significant diplomatic ties to? An alignment between two superpowers makes for a fine boogeyman, especially if their target of choice fits the profile of Klingons to a T. Today's relations are good, but Renhadd thinks ahead.
- Location
- United States
[X] We should intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
I can agree with this, if every major decision was an easy strategic decision by virtue of circumstance why would we need to vote on anything?
I can agree with this, if every major decision was an easy strategic decision by virtue of circumstance why would we need to vote on anything?
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
It's almost like forgetting Sousa's comment about not making the hard decisions solely because they are hard and let us pat ourselves on the back is being forgotten as a sport.
Chaos Blade
Procrastinating Writer
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
So we should use this as a casus belis to go to war with the Ashalla pact at a time we aren't ready for and they might be (note our intel failed to warn us of this) and in a way that is rather similar at how the Cardassians are using the Chrystovian's actions as a casus belis to invade.
That is ok with you? think it will be ok with the average Fed Citizen?
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Uh.... pretty sure they'd want it.
My reason for any and all votes on the Chrystovians was simple:
I figured that resources spent diplomancing them would be wasted because exactly this would happen anyway, only probably with us in a worse position due to having a Starfleet task force already dangling out there to get blown up. So it'd still come down to, more or less, exactly the vote we have today.
This is exactly what's going to happen! In fact, expanding on this I'll say the Cardassians, being far more capable of spying on our ship building than we're on theirs due to the openness of Federation media, can use the information they get about our build schedules of existing and new classes to deliberately time their aggressive moves before our new classes arrive.
In short, not only will the Cardassians not pick good times for us to launch attacks in, they will deliberately launch their attacks whenever we are weakest!
They have this capability, simply by watching what Federation media reports on Federation shipyards, with the minimum of Obsidian Order resources. After all the media can easily figure out and keep track of everything that's being built and while the specific capabilities of the ships might be harder to find, things like "a new Frigate-weight design prototype is under construction" are quite simple to determine.
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Okay, my reasoning for voting to intervene is as follows:
We can't, reasonably, do better. Because all three of the following are true:
Any conflict with the Cardassians is going to be morally dubious, politically unpalatable, or unpopular with our citizens. Probably all three. There can never be a good time for a confrontation, never a clear line in the sand, never a causus belli that will unify the whole Federation. They're not the Klingon Empire, they can pick out a plausible justification and wait until we're distracted.
We need to confront the Cardassians. The Federation can't be everywhere or do everything, but we can and should say "within our reach, there shall be no conquest." And this is where we may say it.
We can't sustain the kind of military presence we would need to ensure we're never caught off-guard like this again. We'd basically need to have multiple free-floating task forces along Cardassian border, and we're never going to be able to spare that many ships or justify the provocation it would be outside of a war. So, given that the Cardassians get to pick the venue and we can't be in position to respond easily to every venue, we must accept fighting will put in a sorry position.
As for the other non-aligned polities... It's not like we're enforcing "no fighting ever" - we've shown before that our response to someone else's limited war or political conflict is limited to diplomatic maneuvering and sophonitarian aid. I'm comfortable saying that they can deal with that restriction.
We can't, reasonably, do better. Because all three of the following are true:
Any conflict with the Cardassians is going to be morally dubious, politically unpalatable, or unpopular with our citizens. Probably all three. There can never be a good time for a confrontation, never a clear line in the sand, never a causus belli that will unify the whole Federation. They're not the Klingon Empire, they can pick out a plausible justification and wait until we're distracted.
We need to confront the Cardassians. The Federation can't be everywhere or do everything, but we can and should say "within our reach, there shall be no conquest." And this is where we may say it.
We can't sustain the kind of military presence we would need to ensure we're never caught off-guard like this again. We'd basically need to have multiple free-floating task forces along Cardassian border, and we're never going to be able to spare that many ships or justify the provocation it would be outside of a war. So, given that the Cardassians get to pick the venue and we can't be in position to respond easily to every venue, we must accept fighting will put in a sorry position.
As for the other non-aligned polities... It's not like we're enforcing "no fighting ever" - we've shown before that our response to someone else's limited war or political conflict is limited to diplomatic maneuvering and sophonitarian aid. I'm comfortable saying that they can deal with that restriction.
- Location
- NC USA
[X] We should not intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
Hey new guy here I hope I posted this right lol.
Hey new guy here I hope I posted this right lol.
But what does "within our reach" mean?
AKuz
Been Better
- Location
- A Rising Tide of Horrors
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Just want to make a minor clarification with regards to the Harmony's offer:
A Peacekeeper Expeditionary Fleet is a self contained entity. It contains in its formation a preplanned auxiliary force, and additionally the Sanctuary and Choreographer pattern tenders are designed with onboard processing facilities and parts storage -it's partially why their stats are a bit lackluster for their size.
The mission that the Harmony is committing to is exactly what the Peacekeeper Expeditionary Fleets are designed to do, they're not really expecting to rely on us for resupply past eventually asking for raw materials and keeping replacement conduits home for personnel and specialist parts and hulls.
A Peacekeeper Expeditionary Fleet is a self contained entity. It contains in its formation a preplanned auxiliary force, and additionally the Sanctuary and Choreographer pattern tenders are designed with onboard processing facilities and parts storage -it's partially why their stats are a bit lackluster for their size.
The mission that the Harmony is committing to is exactly what the Peacekeeper Expeditionary Fleets are designed to do, they're not really expecting to rely on us for resupply past eventually asking for raw materials and keeping replacement conduits home for personnel and specialist parts and hulls.
- Location
- NC USA
For me I just do not think going to war is worth it. There is a very good chance our fleet will be destroyed and then what a full war? The war that would come from that would be extremely messy and the most important part of Star Trek to me is when one decides not to take the hard path just because its hard but to think outside the box and find a different way.
What we're voting right now isn't even on whether to go to war or not. The current vote is on whether we should intervene, which means either making the Cardassians back off through diplomacy of the threatening flavor or going to war. Or not intervene, leaving the Chrystovians to their fate but not risking a war.
The third way would be to intervene and then solve this without violence somehow. Which is unlikely.
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- Location
- United States
I can't speak for the average Fed Citizen, only myself, and I would not have voted for intervention if I wasn't ok with it.
I don't believe that our casus belli is similar at all to the Cardassian's. Who would we need to provide a casus belli for anyway? Two of the five other major polities are inclined to agree with intervention without us providing any justification, in fact it seems likely we will have to provide justification on why we did not intervene.
As for the rest? The Romulans have just come out of conflicts, the Gorn and the Ittick-Ka are gearing up for their own power struggle, and the Klingons are likely busy consolidating and recovering their economy.
I don't agree with the argument that we should not intervene because we aren't ready for conflict because I don't believe we will ever be positioned perfectly to deal with a crisis. Secondly, we seem to exist as a check against the Cardassians, notably through our actions in the GBZ, and I feel that insufficient attention has been placed upon our spinward border due to our almost laser focus on the HoH and the coreward mess.
Yes, there seems to be calls for an Allupii task force to happen at some point, but with the HoH indicating interest in the Bolians and the potential conflicts rimwards I don't believe it will happen or it will be initiated far too late.
In fact, I think the greatest potential check on Cardassian expansion that has happened lately was when the Shanpurr joined in a defensive alliance with the ISC. At least they are now relatively safe for a neutral polity near Cardassian borders. Come to think of it, didn't we meet the Chrystovians looking for a civilization that had already been subsumed by the Cardassians by the time we entered their space? Funny that.
- Location
- NC USA
I think it was said that intervene meant war was very likely to happen so I take the intervene option as going to war. The option that will give us the best chance to save people and to stop this from happening in the future is to not intervene but instead doing the same thing the Harmony is by sending aid ships so that they do not look any better than us,
No, that's not what's going on at all. There's no non-violent intervention, the Cardassians won't allow that. It's either try to make them back off and war if we fail, which is likely. Or ignore it and wait for next time.
- Location
- NC USA
I am sure we can send aid ships the Cardassians started this war under the cover that they were the good guys shooting down aid ships kind of ruins that also with the Harmony sending aid ships that would probably start a war with them for no reason.
- Location
- Aotearoa
One additional concern here is 'general war with the Ashalla Pact' is not what the HoH or ISC are signing up for. The ISC have said they're willing to back us up against the Dylarians, and thats great, but they've got the Harmony to worry about as well.
But, the HoH Peacekeepers think they're going to intervene to stop the conquest of the Chrystovians, by the Cardassians, right? Not to hard-push for Cardassia and destroy Pact shipyards, as the latest 'punish military adventurism (with military adventurism)/break up the Pact' plan outlines.
What happens to the commitment when we ignore the Chrystovians and instead focus on Bajor or the Cardassian military-industrial machine?
But, the HoH Peacekeepers think they're going to intervene to stop the conquest of the Chrystovians, by the Cardassians, right? Not to hard-push for Cardassia and destroy Pact shipyards, as the latest 'punish military adventurism (with military adventurism)/break up the Pact' plan outlines.
What happens to the commitment when we ignore the Chrystovians and instead focus on Bajor or the Cardassian military-industrial machine?
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