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You forgot the part where they send an intervention fleet that didn't do anything because Starfleet wasn't able to at least secure logistics.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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al103
Grumpy Russian Bear (SV edition)
- Location
- Russia, Krasnoyarsk
[X] We should not intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
What essentially pushed my vote (I'm more or less on fence because of "if we wanted to intervene we should been doing that from the start") is the very fact that while "inside" Cardassian state reason is utter bullshit, "outside" it's likely to be true. It's one thing to help people who are target of unjustified aggression, it's another when said target dug their own grave and ask us to lie there instead of them.
What essentially pushed my vote (I'm more or less on fence because of "if we wanted to intervene we should been doing that from the start") is the very fact that while "inside" Cardassian state reason is utter bullshit, "outside" it's likely to be true. It's one thing to help people who are target of unjustified aggression, it's another when said target dug their own grave and ask us to lie there instead of them.
[X] We should not intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
Ultimately, the ISC will admit that our preexisting force distribution and fleet deployments make intervention an extremely costly affair. We simply have too much territory to cover for our existing fleet, and our Task Forces are either non-negotiable or on the other side of our territory. Declaring a State of Emergency would get us the member fleets, but the only plausible result is us getting involved in another war.
Ultimately, the ISC will admit that our preexisting force distribution and fleet deployments make intervention an extremely costly affair. We simply have too much territory to cover for our existing fleet, and our Task Forces are either non-negotiable or on the other side of our territory. Declaring a State of Emergency would get us the member fleets, but the only plausible result is us getting involved in another war.
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
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- Behind You
See, I expect this kind of attitude to become alot more common if we don't intervene and that'll complicate alot of future things. It might still be worth it not to, but we shouldn't be surprised if it does.
[X] We should intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
Let us be the Federation that the ISC knows we can be.
Let us be the Federation that the ISC knows we can be.
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
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- Behind You
But on the other hand, Stesk opposes intervention. And don't you want us to be the us that Stesk knows we can be?
The Confederacy of Amarkia Navy - To Boldly Go for those wondering how many ships are willing to join in an intervention without PP cost.
[X] We should intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I think this falls under "Harmony uncorks the crazy-hostile swarming under the surface in a way that lets them go "oh, oops, my bad" and laugh it off later."
More like "If the Cardassians decide on war, Bajor is our obvious first target and jumping-off point for further operations, so that's the first target. If the Cardassians don't decide on war, we're not invading Bajor as our way of starting the war."
By taking this stance the Harmony is doing a great job of sabotaging coordination between co-belligerents. If your response is "hey, let's both pull 30C out of our opposing border task forces that mostly cancel out" is literally met with "fuck you!" then there's not a lot of room for future trust or cooperation.
Perhaps the us that Stesk knows we can be... is not Stesk.
The main limit on federalization isn't how fast we can 'take' ships, it's how fast we can crew them. Though you're not wrong about the idea of concentrating crew on the ships we can't get their own people to crew.
The problem is, if we federalize a disproportionate share of the Vulcan and Tellarite fleets, then we need to leave most of the ships we just took behind in Tellarite and Vulcan space to provide event coverage. Especially with the Tellarites.
- Location
- Germany
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Good one.
aledeth
The Flesh is Weak
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[] We should intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
My opinion has been swayed, even though it's a terrible plan from a logistical & tactical standpoint, we have so much to lose from a moral & PR standpoint if we don't. And it really sucks.
I just don't know.
I just don't know.
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We have been calling up most of the centaurs each year for task force duty that the federal five have so federalizing them will not impact the amount of ships they have in their sectors.
And our new members have enough ships we can call up more then we have this year for taskforces even with the Amarkia ship being free in a intervention.
the Apiata do not seem to be strongly against intervention but they want to keep the fleet home at their border with cardassia.
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- Location
- Nova Scotia, Canada
[X] We should not intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
We're not in any shape for a war to protect the Chrystovians. And as for our PR and morality standpoint the other parties are all acting like the Chrystovians are squeaky clean innocents who did nothing wrong and the Cardassian casus belli is a fraud. The problem is we've caught the Chrystovians doing what the Cardassians are accusing them of. I don't doubt that the Cardassians are exaggerating some claims but we know they aren't total lies. Do the Chrystovians need to be stopped? I don't know but this isn't a black and white matter like some groups are trying to claim.
As to the HoH I say that if they bring a fleet to our border and want to fight the Cardassians then we give them an escort through our space and let them. They clearly don't care enough to lower the number of ships involved in our border conflict but if they have another group to send then fine, they can send them. But I bet that if we don't commit a fleet to the war, that HoH fleet won't leave their territory.
The ISC surprises me though. I wouldn't have expected them to care so much about another polity so far away from them that they would send a significant portion of their fleet to help them even though tensions are rising between them and the HoH.
For everyone else crying out about lack of Federation response recently, with the Romulan-Breen war over we can now release full details about what we had the task force doing all these months.
We're not in any shape for a war to protect the Chrystovians. And as for our PR and morality standpoint the other parties are all acting like the Chrystovians are squeaky clean innocents who did nothing wrong and the Cardassian casus belli is a fraud. The problem is we've caught the Chrystovians doing what the Cardassians are accusing them of. I don't doubt that the Cardassians are exaggerating some claims but we know they aren't total lies. Do the Chrystovians need to be stopped? I don't know but this isn't a black and white matter like some groups are trying to claim.
As to the HoH I say that if they bring a fleet to our border and want to fight the Cardassians then we give them an escort through our space and let them. They clearly don't care enough to lower the number of ships involved in our border conflict but if they have another group to send then fine, they can send them. But I bet that if we don't commit a fleet to the war, that HoH fleet won't leave their territory.
The ISC surprises me though. I wouldn't have expected them to care so much about another polity so far away from them that they would send a significant portion of their fleet to help them even though tensions are rising between them and the HoH.
For everyone else crying out about lack of Federation response recently, with the Romulan-Breen war over we can now release full details about what we had the task force doing all these months.
remember that both the federation and Ashalla pack will need to keep major garrison forces, i our case these will consist of the BZ forces and member forces not joining the intervention but the pack needs to deploy ships to counter any raids by these ships. In the case of a major war i expect we can call up more ships then normally from our members and assign explorer core ships. Any federation liberation of Bajor will probably have an ambassador class ship leading the way.
If the war last longer then a year the ambassador wave will launch and cardassia knows this and i do not think they have a counter for a TF lead by 5+ ambassadors.
If the war last longer then a year the ambassador wave will launch and cardassia knows this and i do not think they have a counter for a TF lead by 5+ ambassadors.
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- Location
- Patriarchova
The Allupi are still independent.
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
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- Behind You
I don't think they care as much for the Chrystovians (I mean, they probably do, I just don't think it's their first concern) as for the chance to crush the Pact.
Alastor Mobius Toth
***** ***
- Location
- Neon Ghetto
Tough nut to crack.
To be honest, it is nice to receive a reminder that the "galactic north" is full of assholes. The drivel said by assbassador from HoH has been remarked upon by other people, so I won't be dignifying that prick with a response. But it is telling that they're not willing to play ball and want to have their cake and eat it too.
But ISC comes across to me as pretty cowardly in itself. "You must intervene and we will see you as weak and ineffectual if you don't..." but they make clear that they won't prioritize our war with Cardassians (that they want us to start), and will instead focus on Harmony. Uh-huh. Yeah, really easy to preach when you are actively shying away from sharing the burden. I didn't like these shut-in pricks to begin with, and now I like them a little less.
Of course, if we don't intervene now...well, there is a legitimate point that we will loose some of our diplomatic mojo. It will make our work harder, and it might be harder to stop Gorn and Ittick-ka from having a go at each other if nobody will seriously believe we can actually come down on them.
But let's be clear: this ship has sailed. We can't actually bail out Chrystovians in time. Our best bet is limited offensive capped with liberation of Bajor. And that will mean general war. Let's not dance around it; if we're going to do it, we must do it fully, we must do it now, and we must do it with the Starfleet we have now.
And I'm overall unconvinced we can pull it off, and retain our commitments elsewhere.
[X] We should not intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
We should also start to aggressively wreck HoHs diplomacy. The whole back and forth over "but are they secretly bad guys or not?" has gotten stale. SFI needs to get in and dig out their dirt and throw it in their face.
And we should prepare to diplomatically throw down with ISC too now, given their reaction.
To be honest, it is nice to receive a reminder that the "galactic north" is full of assholes. The drivel said by assbassador from HoH has been remarked upon by other people, so I won't be dignifying that prick with a response. But it is telling that they're not willing to play ball and want to have their cake and eat it too.
But ISC comes across to me as pretty cowardly in itself. "You must intervene and we will see you as weak and ineffectual if you don't..." but they make clear that they won't prioritize our war with Cardassians (that they want us to start), and will instead focus on Harmony. Uh-huh. Yeah, really easy to preach when you are actively shying away from sharing the burden. I didn't like these shut-in pricks to begin with, and now I like them a little less.
Of course, if we don't intervene now...well, there is a legitimate point that we will loose some of our diplomatic mojo. It will make our work harder, and it might be harder to stop Gorn and Ittick-ka from having a go at each other if nobody will seriously believe we can actually come down on them.
But let's be clear: this ship has sailed. We can't actually bail out Chrystovians in time. Our best bet is limited offensive capped with liberation of Bajor. And that will mean general war. Let's not dance around it; if we're going to do it, we must do it fully, we must do it now, and we must do it with the Starfleet we have now.
And I'm overall unconvinced we can pull it off, and retain our commitments elsewhere.
[X] We should not intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
We should also start to aggressively wreck HoHs diplomacy. The whole back and forth over "but are they secretly bad guys or not?" has gotten stale. SFI needs to get in and dig out their dirt and throw it in their face.
And we should prepare to diplomatically throw down with ISC too now, given their reaction.
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
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*looks at vote*
Well, I guess we can't cast any shade on the HoH anymore. At least they're willing to walk the talk, unlike us.
Well, I guess we can't cast any shade on the HoH anymore. At least they're willing to walk the talk, unlike us.
- Location
- UTC -6
[X] We should intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
I think the wise option would be to back away. But that just doesn't feel right to me. Starfleet should get some ships out there for the Chrystovians, even if all they can hope for is to watch the Cardassians carefully follow their stated intentions.
My thoughts are that a sprint there could 'show the flag' enough to become a party to the aftermath. We'll need to push a formidable force to the border, as a deterrent to any attempt to make our outmatched relief force vanish...
On the up side the Horizon said they'll keep all those ships nearby to help out the fine folks in the Horizon Border Zone. I'm sure everyone will be understanding that we've needed to pull a large number of ships for a crisis since the HoH is still making house calls. Maybe it will turn out okay and Starfleet can reassure all our federation members that we will protect our friends.
I think the wise option would be to back away. But that just doesn't feel right to me. Starfleet should get some ships out there for the Chrystovians, even if all they can hope for is to watch the Cardassians carefully follow their stated intentions.
My thoughts are that a sprint there could 'show the flag' enough to become a party to the aftermath. We'll need to push a formidable force to the border, as a deterrent to any attempt to make our outmatched relief force vanish...
On the up side the Horizon said they'll keep all those ships nearby to help out the fine folks in the Horizon Border Zone. I'm sure everyone will be understanding that we've needed to pull a large number of ships for a crisis since the HoH is still making house calls. Maybe it will turn out okay and Starfleet can reassure all our federation members that we will protect our friends.