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Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

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[X] Ling Qi follows Cai Renxiang because
-[X] Absolute material advantage granting growth, security, influence, etc (up to yrs how much to elaborate on this)
--[X] Integrity of Renxiang's character meaning she can be trusted to look after her minions
---[X] Interest in being a better person and seeing if Renxiang's ideal world is even possible to build in real life.
 
The more I read Primal's early write in the more I hate it. Growing as a person? Blah! Time for a strategic vote and a best vote.

[X] Kai Merah
[X] "Because I am a selfish, greedy girl."

I think the main problem with a write-in putting things into exact words is that it's much more likely a specific artifact of phrasing or idea in the writer's head is going to radically turn people off.
 
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[X] Lady Cai's offer was the one that offered us the greatest potential for growth. She offered us a home where we could extend our roots, opportunities that would let us advance as a cultivator, an ideal that would help us grow as a person.
[X] "Because I am a selfish, greedy girl."


I cant
Decide:(
 
[X] Lady Cai's offer was the one that offered us the greatest potential for growth. She offered us a home where we could extend our roots, opportunities that would let us advance as a cultivator, an ideal that would help us grow as a person.
 
On one hand the first response if good in that its professional and it's not a lie. However I feel like with her personality momma can will respond better to the selfish girl comment.

To her we might as well be an insect with how below we are to her however we have several things working in our favour and thats that our rise in strength reminds herself of her own rise, and that our appearance reminds her of her friend/possible lover .

So depending on our response we can get a bored "hmmm interesting , well I will watch your performances "

Or amuse her. And while some might say NO NO STAY OFF HER RADAR , we already are on her radar by being the left hand of her daughter.

And I would rather be an interesting amusing insect then one face of many that' easily tossed aside
 
Kai's write in puts too much emphasis on wealth. Ling Qi herself doesn't care about that. She's never thought material wealth as an advantage of Cai; this is a quester concern. (It's partly because she's a little arrogant about high talent ithink. She just assumes she can continue in her cultivation no matter where she goes or with what resources.)

Qi concern has always been with renciang as a person and renxiangs ideals and goals. Whether she could agree to that and support it in action if not certainty of belief.
 
Mr.rodent said:
On one hand the first response if good in that its professional and it's not a lie. However I feel like with her personality momma can will respond better to the selfish girl comment.

To her we might as well be an insect with how below we are to her however we have several things working in our favour and thats that our rise in strength reminds herself of her own rise, and that our appearance reminds her of her friend/possible lover .

So depending on our response we can get a bored "hmmm interesting , well I will watch your performances "

Or amuse her. And while some might say NO NO STAY OFF HER RADAR , we already are on her radar by being the left hand of her daughter.

And I would rather be an interesting amusing insect then one face of many that' easily tossed aside
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I feel like this is not really the time to gamble on high-variance strategies. Sure, if she finds our spunk amusing, everything works out great. If she doesn't we get to deal with a Duchess who disproves of us, which can only end in tears.
 
Katreus said:
Kai's write in puts too much emphasis on wealth. Ling Qi herself doesn't care about that. She's never thought material wealth as an advantage of Cai; this is a quester concern. (It's partly because she's a little arrogant about high talent ithink. She just assumes she can continue in her cultivation no matter where she goes or with what resources.)

Qi concern has always been with renciang as a person and renxiangs ideals and goals. Whether she could agree to that and support it in action if not certainty of belief.
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I'm pretty sure early on Qi wanted a Meizhen who wasn't Meizhen, since Meizhen wasn't available. She may not have thought that directly, but it was a bit subconscious. When it was obvious that wasn't really a viable thought, she turned to other ways to evaluate her potentials, and started actually thinking about the future.
 
Regardless of how this vote goes, I think I want to give some feedback on this approach. It's certainly not a disaster or unworkable but I think this instance had a couple of problems.

First, it was new and the thread had to figure out what to do about it. It also triggered some panic because it was and is perceived as very critical and dangerous situation however unreasonable that might be. (Yes, Shenhua could immolate Ling Qi on the spot if she so wanted. So could literally hundreds of other people nearby. It doesn't mean it will happen even if we 'displease' her.) Overall, this is fine and not a long term concern. Trying out new things means some initial confusion. and it should go better in the future.

Second, I think the vote was very open and had next to no structure. That allows for maximum creativity but also allows people to run wild with things and miss by miles. Maybe some more structure or example votes would have helped her. Or maybe a list of the possible core arguments from Ling Qi's perspective and giving the thread the option to vote on their weighting and importance instead of coming up with their own interpretations of Ling Qi's motivations.

Which brings me to my third point. To me, it wasn't instantly clear what this vote is supposed to be about. Is it about Ling Qi and her motivations or justification to join Renxiang and be loyal to her? Or is it about the reasons the quest voters did choose to do so? Those are... not the same. At all. And I believe most of the currently leading plans are not reflecting Ling Qi's thoughts very well.

So far, and I liked it very much that way, Ling Qi has been her own person. She had her own motivations and reasons. She often followed some arguments from the thread or drew inspiration from them but she was also free to discard the more questionable suggestions or those which didn't fit her character. Again, I liked that a lot. It made for a much more comprehensive and consistent character than a mere puppet behaving to the erratic demands of quest voters.

But this vote got 'derailed' into being about the questers motivations. Probably due to a desire to be honest in the face of Cai "My light illuminates all lies" Shenhua and overall quester panic. I don't think the questers opinions and motivations should have much importance here though or trigger any fears about being caught in a falsehood. It should be about Ling Qi and what she expressed and what we could read about her thoughts.

I am concerned that giving the thread regularly the option to vote for Ling Qi's reasons or motivations will muddy the waters, and her character. Leading to a more inconsistent characterisation and mood whiplash. It'll require careful handling by Yrsillar to avoid this. On the other hand, I can understand the desire to give the questers some kind of control and pick where the story goes or how Ling Qi develops. I am not sure that is wise, though...

Maybe a compromise of some kind would be workable, and have Questers not vote about Ling Qi or others characterisations and motivations, but about where the story goes. Maybe voting about what events happen, or which events get examined in greater detail and thus deciding the focus of the story but keeping the integrity of the characters.
 
@jacobk, I haven't gone through the entire quest, but someone with talent 8/9 who had botched most of their social/resource gathering would likely be around the same position or slightly behind where we are. They would have had 10 dice for their first cultivation with everything but a 9 as a success for a 10 success check. They would have walked into the first cultivation lesson equivalent or slightly ahead. Then they would slow down because they'd only have the reward pills from lessons, but unless they completely failed every roll for resource gathering they'd keep or beat our pace. Succeeding on 80/90 percent of your dice is an enormous boost.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
If I may, if you're going to be offering votes in a narrative-driven quest, the #1 thing you must do is clamp down hard on attempts to take "all of the above". Offer decisions that have clear dividing lines, or mutually exclusive things, and don't even bother offering votes where the optimal choice is to do multiple things or especially everything - that should usually go without need for a vote at all. Offer write-ins very sparingly (this is actually a good example of a good write-in opportunity), and manage your vote choices hard. Never offer a vote option that does nothing, nor a choice that has little consequence. It doesn't have to be serious consequence, but if two picks ever lead to the same thing, it doesn't work because it breaks the illusion of player choice. The place where a vote is called for is often different from the optimal place to break in a narrative. In a quest that does not divide up by mechanics, vote choices are sometimes more important than the content of the update. Managing quester expectations through your calls for votes is a key responsibility. It may well be beneficial to have a question answering period after a call for a vote, and only then to set a deadline.
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I disagree in part. QMs can offer two picks that lead to the same thing, they just have to not be dumb about it. It only breaks the illusion of player choice if you bungle it so it's obvious that both choices led to the same outcome. If you offer a choice of "left" or "right" and left is a dead end and they turn around and take the right automatically if they pick it, sure that's bad design. However, if "right" and "left" both have the hallway collapse halfway through, dumping you in the same large underground chamber, there's no way for the player to be aware of that. You've saved work as a QM while making the experience more engaging from the perspective of the player.

Not something to do all the time, but it's a valid approach.

Katreus said:
Kai's write in puts too much emphasis on wealth. Ling Qi herself doesn't care about that. She's never thought material wealth as an advantage of Cai; this is a quester concern. (It's partly because she's a little arrogant about high talent ithink. She just assumes she can continue in her cultivation no matter where she goes or with what resources.)

Qi concern has always been with renciang as a person and renxiangs ideals and goals. Whether she could agree to that and support it in action if not certainty of belief.
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The question of Renxiang's character and ideals has always been the possible deal breaker, but it was the material opportunity that drew her in. If the money and political advantage wasn't on the table, we flatly would not have chosen Renxiang's route. We've been incredibly ambivalent about her on a personal and ideological level, both in and out of character. It's true that Ling Qi's concern has been about Renxiang as a person, but not in the way that you're suggesting.

That isn't to say that it's no draw at all, it is. But it's fantasy to say it's her only or even main motivation.
 
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[X] Lady Cai's offer was the one that offered us the greatest potential for growth. She offered us a home where we could extend our roots, opportunities that would let us advance as a cultivator, an ideal that would help us grow as a person.
 
[X] Lady Cai's offer was the one that offered us the greatest potential for growth. She offered us a home where we could extend our roots, opportunities that would let us advance as a cultivator, an ideal that would help us grow as a person.
 
AbeoLogos said:
The question of Renxiang's character and ideals has always been the possible deal breaker, but it was the material opportunity that drew her in. If the money and political advantage wasn't on the table, we flatly would not have chosen Renxiang's route. We've been incredibly ambivalent about her on a personal and ideological level, both in and out of character. It's true that Ling Qi's concern has been about Renxiang as a person, but not in the way that you're suggesting.

That isn't to say that it's no draw at all, it is. But it's fantasy to say it's her only or even main motivation.
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[jk] I got five kids to feed.
 
Sundancer said:
Regardless of how this vote goes, I think I want to give some feedback on this approach. It's certainly not a disaster or unworkable but I think this instance had a couple of problems.

First, it was new and the thread had to figure out what to do about it. It also triggered some panic because it was and is perceived as very critical and dangerous situation however unreasonable that might be. (Yes, Shenhua could immolate Ling Qi on the spot if she so wanted. So could literally hundreds of other people nearby. It doesn't mean it will happen even if we 'displease' her.) Overall, this is fine and not a long term concern. Trying out new things means some initial confusion. and it should go better in the future.

Second, I think the vote was very open and had next to no structure. That allows for maximum creativity but also allows people to run wild with things and miss by miles. Maybe some more structure or example votes would have helped her. Or maybe a list of the possible core arguments from Ling Qi's perspective and giving the thread the option to vote on their weighting and importance instead of coming up with their own interpretations of Ling Qi's motivations.

Which brings me to my third point. To me, it wasn't instantly clear what this vote is supposed to be about. Is it about Ling Qi and her motivations or justification to join Renxiang and be loyal to her? Or is it about the reasons the quest voters did choose to do so? Those are... not the same. At all. And I believe most of the currently leading plans are not reflecting Ling Qi's thoughts very well.

So far, and I liked it very much that way, Ling Qi has been her own person. She had her own motivations and reasons. She often followed some arguments from the thread or drew inspiration from them but she was also free to discard the more questionable suggestions or those which didn't fit her character. Again, I liked that a lot. It made for a much more comprehensive and consistent character than a mere puppet behaving to the erratic demands of quest voters.

But this vote got 'derailed' into being about the questers motivations. Probably due to a desire to be honest in the face of Cai "My light illuminates all lies" Shenhua and overall quester panic. I don't think the questers opinions and motivations should have much importance here though or trigger any fears about being caught in a falsehood. It should be about Ling Qi and what she expressed and what we could read about her thoughts.

I am concerned that giving the thread regularly the option to vote for Ling Qi's reasons or motivations will muddy the waters, and her character. Leading to a more inconsistent characterisation and mood whiplash. It'll require careful handling by Yrsillar to avoid this. On the other hand, I can understand the desire to give the questers some kind of control and pick where the story goes or how Ling Qi develops. I am not sure that is wise, though...

Maybe a compromise of some kind would be workable, and have Questers not vote about Ling Qi or others characterisations and motivations, but about where the story goes. Maybe voting about what events happen, or which events get examined in greater detail and thus deciding the focus of the story but keeping the integrity of the characters.
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I'm curious what you believe in character motivations are that we're overlooking. You don't really say. I like to keep things in in-character bounds and contexts, so it'd help me if you elaborated. If nothing else, I'd be able to share in your frustration- a worthy goal in any circumstance.
 
So, there's been a bit of argument over how much Ling Qi herself cares about Cai's resource advantage, considering that we never really see her think about it.

I'm going to suggest the following: we don't see her think about it because she doesn't consider it controversial. It isn't something she's agonizing over. It isn't the big character question that keeps her up at night. Ling Qi considers "trying to be the very best" as obvious. It is a given for her.

We see this in her surprise at Su Ling not going for the Inner Sect, or her "lol what? Stop?" reaction to Han Jian:
yrsillar said:
"Neither of us is going to stop there though, are we?" Ling Qi asked, twisting a lock of her hair around her finger. "Not you, or Han Fang, or Gu Xiulan," she added thoughtfully. "No one I know really." Su Ling and Li Suyin might not be as talented, but she doubted either would simply settle. "Is third realm really where people stop?"

"The higher you rise, the more time cultivation takes, and people have other responsibilities and interests, you know?" Han Jian replied, heading toward the edge of the field. "Not everyone has the ambition and dedication to keep pushing through years or decades of tiny gains. Besides, most people don't really need higher cultivation, you know?"

Ling Qi struggled to imagine simply… settling, knowing that there was still such a vast gulf between yourself and the top, so many people and things which could still trample you effortlessly. "Well, less competition is good I guess," she said after a moment. "Anyway, I thought I'd ask…"
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In contrast, the issue of ideals is a source of major internal conflict to her, and something she's unsure about. From the start the question with Cai wasn't whether or not she offered great opportunities, but whether or not Ling Qi could like her and accept following her. Hence, this is what has consumed most of the in-thread debate, and most of Ling Qi's thoughts.
 
[X] Lady Cai's offer was the one that offered us the greatest potential for growth. She offered us a home where we could extend our roots, opportunities that would let us advance as a cultivator, an ideal that would help us grow as a person.
 
[X] Lady Cai's offer was the one that offered us the greatest potential for growth. She offered us a home where we could extend our roots, opportunities that would let us advance as a cultivator, an ideal that would help us grow as a person.
 
How is this an answer? In what way is Ling qi stupid? In what way is she greedy? How does the two answers to the previous questions actually answer why she's following Renxiang?

That is a nonsequitur of a reason without much more elaboration.
 
[x] "Because I am a selfish, greedy girl."

Reading this one gave me chills haha. The callbacks to Meizhen's description of her and her own reflections have great potential for a memorable scene rather than the usual 'optimal' answers that are thrown in during these kind of votes. Of all the choices so far, this is far and away the one I'd like to see yrsillar elaborate on.
 
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