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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Right. This is too long, and I guess part one of my proposal. I'm putting it out there, and put the presently-unedited version of the second proposed continuation in a spoiler. Suggestions welcome. Going to cut this down, or possibly change my mind to someone else's vote, and then I have homework due tomorrow, so I'll disappear until that's done, probably.

Edit: Reasoning for two-part-vote proposal: As I noticed trying to splice 1304 words of vote content down to 150 words before screaming inside, we're trying to cover entirely too much ground in a single vote. This is one reasonable way to ensure we can probably break it up a bit, with some control over the process rather than a miss-step and a screaming match and another table incident.

[x] Deep breath
-[x] Apologize. "I'm terrified of this discussion going wrong; as a result, I'm handling it badly."
--[x] Explain: accelerated perception of time; it's been today for six months; since capturing Oriko, three and a half years. It's why I push too fast, sometimes.
-[x] Make clear: Not arguing release/absolve O&K. They did wrong. Homura/Sayaka have the last word; nothing happens without their say-so.
[x] That said. Sayaka. There's information you need to have. You want my reasoning, what the hell I'm thinking? Gladly. But first, there's a specific private concern I admit overlooking, starting this conversation.
[x] Homura:
-[x] Ask to talk privately
-[x] I understand I'm pushing, but how much? Ask how she's feeling; encourage her to speak up.
-[x] Re: Oriko:
--[x] Is there a middle ground between indefinite detention/execution and full liberty she can tolerate? Take her answer into account continuing conversation.
--[x] Is there anything we can do, to help Homura trust us in this?
---[x] Constant tracking measures?
---[x] Explain views of Oriko, associated reasoning and information, at length?
--[x] Mention problems with house arrest. Psychological harm; long-term viability; death-by-stir-crazyness-induced-gem-blackening and subsequent-witch-cleanup not fitting the crime; future meguca justice precedent
-[x] Apologize putting her through this.
-[x] Ask her to consider it.
-[x] Apologetic: Sayaka needs background on Oriko. Will not share your secrets- but need to share some of ours.
[x] Return to main conversation; break to vote on handling Sayaka in light of Homura conversation.


--[] Explain our metaknowledge's format: Pasts that happened, futures that didn't, illustrating how people behave.
--[] Oriko's history (family, father, etc). Possible alternate Orikos; their stories.
--[] All hypotheses about Oriko's psychology; actions rooted in pain, betrayal, abandonment.
---[] Mikuni house: mental health effects.
---[] Oriko believes she saved Sayaka's life; house arrest not punishment for that; substitute for honorable suicide.
--[] We could have let Homura execute her; it would have been easier, then and now. But we didn't. Now we've got to deal with it.
--[] All possible courses of action for dealing with Oriko:
---[] Exile, relocation, house arrest elsewhere, community service, chaperones/Sayaklones, tracking, retaliatory house burning, fiscal restitution- let Kamijou-fucking-Kqweuoski be their parole officer, for fucks sake- whatever.
--[] Complications: eventual adult involvement; Mikis, Kures, Shizukis
---[] Hell. This isn't about what Oriko and Kirika deserve. This is about showing mercy to defeated enemies, who are in poor health, that's exacerbated by their confinement.
--[] Leave nothing out. Every feeling, personal reason, concern- Oriko's blinding stupidity, horrible actions; don't want them dead; want allies/assets/future friends because that's how we are; tiptoeing around this sat like lies in my fucking stomach; our duty to prisoners, people, whose lives are under our power; the future- we'll be responsible for a wider standard of justice in the meguca world, and it's fucking terrifying, okay? We don't want to be dictators.
[] Don't want decisions now; not today, even next week, maybe not even until after Walpurgisnacht. But it needed bringing up. There would never be a good time.
[] Tone: Weary: So. That's my knowledge, all my reasoning. Knowing that: What do you want to do?


Edited for accuracy because even if I've let it go in favor of Godwinson's vote further down the page, future-me must remember this attempt
 
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Reminder we need to get this capelet thing for Mami, to complete the look:

 
[X] Vebyast

I guess. For now. I'll try to keep informed of the latest votes amd arguments, but no promises.
 
Exactly 150 words by the count. Part 2 still unedited, working on that after homework; on the off chance that's the morning, good night. Bluh. Definitely feels like I'm losing something in here, but I've been staring at this for too long to tell.

[x] Deep breath. Apologize. "I'm terrified of this discussion going wrong; as a result, I'm handling it badly."
-[x] Acknowledge: Pushing too fast. Explain: accelerated perception of time; it's been today for six months; since capturing Oriko, 3.5 years.
-[x] Make clear: Not arguing 'release/absolve O&K'. And nothing without Homura's/Sayaka's go-ahead.
[x] Sayaka: Want my reasoning, the hell I'm thinking? Gladly. But first: private concerns I've mishandled.
[x] Homura: Ask: Talk privately?
-[x] I'm sorry. Not trying to corner you. Ask how she's feeling; "Help me understand."
-[x] Re: Oriko:
--[x] Any middle ground between indefinite detention/execution and full liberty she can tolerate? Constant tracking/monitoring? Take her answer into account continuing conversation.
--[x] Anything we can do, to help Homura trust us here?
---[x] Explain thoughts- Oriko, associated reasoning/information- at length?
--[x] House arrest concerns: psychological damage; long-term viability; death-and-subsequent-witching-by-stir-crazyness-induced-gem-blackening not proportionate punishment
-[x] Ask her to consider it.
-[x] Apologetic: Sayaka needs Oriko's background. Won't share Homura's secrets- but must explain own.
[x] Exit timestop; break to vote.


--[] Explain our metaknowledge's format: Pasts that happened, futures that didn't, illustrating how people behave.
--[] Oriko's history (family, father, etc). Possible alternate Orikos; their stories.
--[] All hypotheses about Oriko's psychology; actions rooted in pain, betrayal, abandonment.
---[] Mikuni house: mental health effects.
---[] Oriko believes she saved Sayaka's life; house arrest not punishment for that; substitute for honorable suicide.
--[] We could have let Homura execute her; it would have been easier, then and now. But we didn't. Now we've got to deal with it.
--[] All possible courses of action for dealing with Oriko:
---[] Exile, relocation, house arrest elsewhere, community service, chaperones/Sayaklones, tracking, retaliatory house burning, fiscal restitution- let Kamijou-fucking-Kqweuoski be their parole officer, for fucks sake- whatever.
--[] Complications: eventual adult involvement; Mikis, Kures, Shizukis
---[] Hell. This isn't about what Oriko and Kirika deserve. This is about showing mercy to defeated enemies, who are in poor health, that's exacerbated by their confinement.
--[] Leave nothing out. Every feeling, personal reason, concern- Oriko's blinding stupidity, horrible actions; don't want them dead; want allies/assets/future friends because that's how we are; tiptoeing around this sat like lies in my fucking stomach; our duty to prisoners, people, whose lives are under our power; the future- we'll be responsible for a wider standard of justice in the meguca world, and it's fucking terrifying, okay? We don't want to be dictators.
[] Don't want decisions now; not today, even next week, maybe not even until after Walpurgisnacht. But it needed bringing up. There would never be a good time.
[] Tone: Weary: So. That's my knowledge, all my reasoning. Knowing that: What do you want to do?
 
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I'll try a different version shortly. But this may be wise to offer by itself?

We (all four) should try a group enchant right now. If we want to get to emotional bedrock, this would do it even better than infodump. But that isn't an explanation.

Overall, what we need to do is further our bonds to one another. It is the only way Mitakihara is going to work, going forward. Tonight's task is...

Learn to trust, while disagreeing with your partner.

yes / no ?
 
I didn't have high hopes for this to begin with, but it would be a shame if something vitally necessary like the therapist idea was torpedoed because it's now tainted by association with Oriko in their eyes.
 
Not arriving at my final selection yet. Going to come back later. In the time between, please see if any of my rough outline is going to aide us? Not in a vote format, "left as an exercise."
Trying to BrinaThink. Poach if it may help your vote.


[!Dialog] Deep breath. Apologize. "I'm terrified of this discussion going wrong; as a result, I'm handling it badly."


[!Dialog] Group enchant, all together while talking. Imagine a bell?
-[!Dialog] Mami tells them to expect side effects
-[!Dialog] I can't lie to you like this
-[!Dialog] We need ability to share and trust
-[!Dialog] My wish is bigger than anything I can do
--[!Dialog] My friends get all of me, and I need to receive you.
--[!Dialog] Promise my faith to each of you
--[!Dialog] Help to grant your wishes myself
--[!Dialog] My Wish is to fix this,
---[!Dialog] Make the life where we can live and grow, like we should have been able to
-[!Dialog] Salvation and Good Deeds blind me sometimes
-[!Dialog] I'm incomplete, sometimes.
-[!Dialog] Honesty with you all is my only way forward
--[!Dialog] Sometimes it will sound ugly
--[!Dialog] This is how you save me
-[!Dialog] Join our wills, and it shall be done

[!Dialog] Everyone felt that?
-[!Dialog] This is the reason we need therapists
-[!Dialog] Mundane people can't do this. Our emotions are given power.
--[!Dialog] Power that can destroy us. Unsafe power. It isn't our fault.
-[!Dialog] The skills and control we need is what therapists can give us.
--[!Dialog] Faster and safer than simply getting older
---[!Dialog] Magical Girls hardly ever get older, this is why
-[!Dialog] Our immigrants will come in wounded
--[!Dialog] Helping them is helping everyone else too

-[!Dialog] We can teach them how to live together
--[!Dialog] Or we can watch them fail individually

[!Dialog] We know how to show the world our resolve, at Asunaro
-[!Dialog] Must also raise the standards of our lowest and least citizens, our prisoners
-[!Dialog] By leading this way, we will make our world worthwhile and safe for the ones we love
-[!Dialog] Justice may not be an absolute
--[!Dialog] There are scholars we can talk to about that
--[!Dialog] Unless you can be the one who answers that burden
-[!Dialog] Building a new city can't happen without the adults
--[!Dialog] That has always been the normal way. Why did we forget?

[!Dialog] Two things are on my mind
-[!Dialog] We are going to have crime. We don't have a good plan. Anri could have been a disaster. We were lucky after capture.
-[!Dialog] Oriko is still suicidal. While in elevated mood, I want to influence her. Saving her doesn't mean I support her crime.
--[!Dialog] No more abuse house memories
--[!Dialog] A more normal environment, with selected others everyday. The others help check compliance. Monitoring tech.
---[!Dialog] Not free to leave, unless we come escort them.
---[!Dialog] At least as far away from Madoka
 
mCooperative said:
... We may have Hitomi breathing down our necks about "presuming judgement" again. And we haven't actually resolved the issue of trying to keep it from seeming like we're saying "muggles fuck off", and with the arguments of "injured parties with a say in this", we'll need to have at least part of this talk with Hitomi at some point.
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This is a good thing. Hitomi has a position that lets her argue for something other then an emotional vengeance spree without sounding like she doesn't care about Oriko's victims.

Seriously, we should be explaining everything to Hitomi and begging her to help.
 
zxzx24 said:
Be careful not to exclude Sayaka.

Also, subjective time?
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Trying not to exclude her, indeed; realized that trying to fit enough detail into a single vote was going to cut somebody out of time. Going to prolly poke my vote proposal so it better addresses the idea of "not excluding anyone but there's a private concern we mishandled and we need to fit that before going back to the main conversation because relevant".

Re: subjective time: It was brought up a few pages back that, if we're going to be leaning on "explain all of our reasoning, literally everything, and now everyone has the information to see where we're coming from, that's all we can ever really give anyone honestly, so now it's really up to them", then things that affect Sabrina's outlook on this, i.e. the fact that for the thread it's been Tuesday April 12, 2011, for the last six months, are relevant to a full picture of our perspective and why we push so much. Basically, communicating that it's not that we're trying to steamroll them out of not caring, it's that it's hard to track that it hasn't really been that long for everyone else to process things.

Skelm said:
This is a good thing. Hitomi has a position that lets her argue for something other then an emotional vengeance spree without sounding like she doesn't care about Oriko's victims.

Seriously, we should be explaining everything to Hitomi and begging her to help.
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Never said it wasn't a good thing. For Hitomi or us, really. Merely that it's going to be A Thing, and both the scheduling of when to interweave these talks so as to unnecessarily offend the least people (though I suspect the nature of these talks will necessarily offend somebody), and also how to phrase it so that, as I said, we don't sound like "muggles fuck off; meguca only", while still maintaining the fact that simply using non-magical law-keeping paradigms is a road to hell with good intentions, is going to be quite a task.

... not that the present conversation isn't a task, given.

... now, I myself am going to return to homework death, because midnight due date. May not see calls until then, apologies if anyone quotes or ats me or suggests something about my vote and I don't reply timely-wise. Hopefully get back to tune my vote more before Firn calls it, but I'm... not unsatisfied with it as it is. Bluh, still feels like I'm losing something to the wordcount, but I really do want that segue at the start, so that it's clear we're not just noping out of the conversation or trying to derail into separate talks for Dastardly Reasons or something.
 
Vebyast's vote has serious issues, people.

Vebyast said:
-[x] Explain the format of your metaknowledge: Pasts and futures that never happened and cannot happen, but that illustrate how people behave.
--[x] Take care to communicate to Homura that you are not discussing her loops. Not every alternate past or future is about her.
-[x] Oriko's history. The possible alternate Orikos and their stories.
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So we're talking about how we know hypothetical information about things that never happened, we indicate to Homura we won't talk about past loops... and then we talk about past loops (Oriko Magica, Sadness Prayer, etc) anyway?

This is a two-part bad idea: Firstly, by framing it all as hypotheticals, Sayaka's going to be far more inclined to dismiss it as Oriko apologism we cooked up out of hand. Secondly, by discussing past loops anyway, we're treading on at least the spirit, if not the word, of our previous promise to Homura.

--[x] When you get to the part where Oriko killed Madoka, let Homura confirm that Madoka contracting would be game-over and refuse to explain further.
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HOLY SHIT. What the fuck is this?

How is telling Sayaka about Oriko's hypothetical manic drive to murder Madoka (Sayaka's best friend) supposed to, in any way whatsoever, improve this situation?

Homura isn't going to do anything that supports the interpretation that killing Madoka was a good idea on Oriko's part!

-[x] All of your hypotheses about Oriko's psychology, how she was trying to commit honorable suicide, and how you're pretty sure the house arrest was the best her power could find for that after you captured her.
-[x] The hole you've dug for yourself by not letting Homura execute her on the spot, why you need to resolve this before it tears the Mitakihara group apart and ruins everything.
-[x] All of the possible courses of action you have for dealing with Oriko and mitigating this catastrophe. Exile, relocation, chaperones, whatever.
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This is all reasonable discussion... that requires exactly zero talk of alternate timelines to manage. "But first, we need to talk about parallel universes" is a fine meme, but it has no place in this discussion. It's a digression, a distraction from the main point and nothing more!

[x] Leave nothing out. If it takes six hours, if Firnagzen has to write the quest's first material timeskip, so be it, we have timestop and we've fucked this up too often by trying to be open and honest while shouting through a 150-word-long garden hose.
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Keep the salt about the voting format out of your votes. Address it in posts to Firnagzen directly if you must, but this kind of metacommentary sniping has no place in the actual decisionmaking of the quest.

I understand the urge to just flip the table, put all the facts out, and hope that Sayaka and Homura make rational decisions once they have all the information... But that's not how people work.

To quote someone I respect:

On the point about clarity versus response length... to paraphrase Blaise Pascal, "I apologize for the length of this letter, for I had not time to make it shorter." The fundamental theorem of communication is that you cannot twiddle neurons. You select sounds and letters that the other party will hopefully interpret in ways that make them think of things that lead to them having an idea. You cannot force an idea into someone's head; you must instead make that idea so easy for them to have that it is the only thought they could have. And the thing is, volume of communication often makes it harder for the reader to have your target idea! People are not infinite inference-making engines: they get bored, they miss the forest for the trees, they disagree on irrelevant points, they read faster than you wrote and simply lose track of the original argument. You are manipulating a flawed machine in order to coerce particular patterns. Inception, if you will, is the soul of communication. And taking that into account, I continually find that a single pithy paragraph, using only most powerful evidence to support a refined and focused argument, is more effective than a comprehensive ten-page essay.
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@Vebyast's approach is simply not the optimal one when it comes to convincing anyone. For all our "failures", social in PMAS has done very signifigantly better then chance when it comes to keeping the Mitakihara group cohesive, and a full unfiltered tableflip infodump is effectively leaving this up to chance.
 
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I honestly doubt Sayaka would care all that much about alternate Orikos, since they haven't burned down her house and have nothing to do with her. We can explain our Oriko's backstory and motivations in detail, but we should also talk more about Sabrina's motivation for bringing this up in the first place.

What is our main motivation for doing this? Sure, we like the Kures and due to our special perception of time we have forgiven them rather quickly, but more importantly I'd say the main motivation should be that Oriko's soul is turning on itself and if things go on as they are, she will likely die. Confining her to her home is thus a death sentence and while she deserves punishment, she doesn't deserve to die. That doesn't mean that we want to let them go, but that the current arrangement is unsustainable, so something about it has to change.
 
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[X] Roomba
Adhoc vote count started by Madou Sutegobana on Mar 30, 2018 at 1:26 PM, finished with 162 posts and 27 votes.
  • [X] Rules: Do not reveal loops, do not witchbomb, do not potential bomb. Do not interrupt others, break update for vote if a response is required that is not covered by this vote. Sabrina's tone should be calm, thoughtful, conciliatory. No braindamage, full serious mode.
    [X] Take a moment to calm down. Apologize to Sayaka. You had honestly been wanting to establish general process for handling future events, and didn't think about how manipulative it might look. Offer cleanses.
    [X] Make it clear that you won't do anything different regarding O&K without express agreement from the entire group.
    [X] Arrange for privacy for all four, by timestop or griefhax. If griefhax is used, employ grief fog to hunt down hidden Incubators within field.
    [X] Establish your motives. Explain that you knew about O&K, just like the others. That your knowledge includes things that have been or could have been. Describe events feeding into Oriko's self-destructive approach to "heroism", and how your metaknowledge indicates she would only act if she thought it would be self-sacrificingly "heroic". Apparently whoever it was that gave you that knowledge made sure that you couldn't help but feel empathy for Oriko, despite her attacking you and your friends.
    [X] Establish your position. House arrest keeps Oriko in place she found her father's body. Justice is one thing, that is something else. Your objections aren't over imprisonment or punishment, but that it be humane. House arrest also has only worked because Oriko has cooperated.
    [X] Establish situation. The people involved, the limitations on our actions, our options for handling O&K, and the ramifications of those options. (See below the vote for details on this.) Don't delve into Homura's concerns, she knows them and doesn't want them brought up.
    [X] Make proposal:
    -[X] Change imprisonment location. Add electronic security to location.
    -[X] Add mundane and magical tracking to O&K. Mami tracking ribbon and house arrest ankle tracker as concrete examples.
    -[X] Scheduled outings with guard(s) -- prisoners get yard time, after all.
    -[X] Bring up having a Sayaklone guard.
    -[X] Continued community service.
    -[X] Any anti-magic used on security measures, or other sort of break-out attempt, escalates our response and their punishment. Make this clear to O&K.
    -[X] Make it clear you'd accept suggestions. This isn't "my way or the highway".
    -[X] If proposal is insufficiently punishing, ask what would be sufficient.
    [X] OOC meta-note: Take as much screen-time as needed to fully detail Sabrina's motives, position, and thoughts on the matter, even if it takes multiple updates or requires a time-skip to preserve proper story flow. We've repeatedly run into issues where Sabrina breezed through things that votes had intended to go over more fully, or had Sabrina act in ways counter to the intent of the vote, due to the "150 words of vague direction" limitation. I'm utterly ignoring that limitation here, because I think it would do vastly more harm than good to try to play wordgames instead of actually addressing the update.
    [X] Since we have limited resources and people to handle this, and imprisoning meguca is expensive and difficult, meguca justice has to be about preventing further harm, not punishment. We applied that principle in Sendai, and it worked well. Like with Sendai, we don't have to like it, but it has to work, and it has proven itself so far.
    -[X] Emphasize to Sayaka the harm Sendai group caused over the years, and how light their "punishment" was. But the outcome was successful.
    -[X] Explain to Sayaka that, as misguided and wrong as Oriko's actions were, they were done with the intention of saving Sayaka's life from a threat she didn't understand and couldn't figure out how to deal with. One that Sayaka should already know is real and dangerous--it nearly killed her just before she contracted, after all.
    [X] To mollify Homura's concerns, propose making a robust Grief Lie Detector construct, and testing it yourselves. Propose using it to question Oriko and Kirika.
    [X] O&K suffering real harm right now. Meguca more vulnerable to emotional harm than anyone. Accommodations must be made, for their health.
    [X] Tone: Weary. Tired of fighting over this, and getting nowhere, over and over.
    [X] Walpurgisnacht is coming. There is a very real chance some of us will get hurt or die defending the city. Are Sayaka and Homura willing to let O&K help?
    [X] If so, then we'll owe them something for it, more than just locking them out of sight and throwing away the key.
    [X] But until that time, you're done talking about this. And sorry for bringing it up in the first place.
    [X] Ask Sayaka, as a personal favour, to give some thought to what she wants from Oriko. Actual thought and deliberation, and not a snap judgement made in anger. She might not see it, but this is for her own sake as well.
    [X] Thank them for listening to you. An additional, smaller thanks to Homura via telepathy.
    [X] Lean on Mami and rest. It's been a long day.
    [X] Proposal: exile the Kures to a desert island somewhere, maybe under a nondetection field.
    -[X] Oriko seemed to think something would assassinate her if she didn't stay close to us, but maybe the nondetection field would prevent that.
    [X] Proposal: send the Kures to Fukushima as prisoners.
    [X] Proposal: gem the Kures, hold their soul gems, store them (maybe in hammerspace?) until after Walpurgisnacht.
    -[X] Arguably this is their best chance of surviving the month.
    [X] Proposal: Sayaka, would beating them up make you feel better? We don't really like violence, but if this would solve the problem...
    [X] If none of this seems to work, back down and apologize.
    [x] Null
    [x] Request timestop. Sayaka wants to decide when Oriko has been sufficiently punished? She gets to decide.
    [x] Lay out every fact you have.
    -[x] Explain the format of your metaknowledge: Pasts and futures that never happened and cannot happen, but that illustrate how people behave.
    --[x] Take care to communicate to Homura that you are not discussing her loops. Not every alternate past or future is about her.
    -[x] Oriko's history. The possible alternate Orikos and their stories.
    --[x] When you get to the part where Oriko killed Madoka, let Homura confirm that Madoka contracting would be game-over and refuse to explain further.
    -[x] All of your hypotheses about Oriko's psychology, how she was trying to commit honorable suicide, and how you're pretty sure the house arrest was the best her power could find for that after you captured her.
    -[x] The hole you've dug for yourself by not letting Homura execute her on the spot, why you need to resolve this before it tears the Mitakihara group apart and ruins everything.
    -[x] All of the possible courses of action you have for dealing with Oriko and mitigating this catastrophe. Exile, relocation, chaperones, whatever.
    [x] Leave nothing out. If it takes six hours, if Firnagzen has to write the quest's first material timeskip, so be it, we have timestop and we've fucked this up too often by trying to be open and honest while shouting through a 150-word-long garden hose.
    [x] So, Sayaka. What do you want to do?
    [X] Mami:
    -[X] Ask if she could track O&K like she did Anri. Homura or Sayaka could hold the other end?
    [X] Homura:
    -[X] Ask to talk privately.
    -[X] Take a moment.
    -[X] I understand I'm pushing but how much? I can't help but think that if we go around detaining people indefinitely without at least a coherent policy on when do so, we're just as bad as any of the more exploitive magical girl groups out there. Is the line Arson? Assault? Things the media would call an act of terrorism? How much does intent matter?
    -[X] Talk about Oriko?
    --[X] Is there a middle ground between indefinite detention/execution and full liberty you can tolerate? Take her answer into account as much as possible.
    --[X] Ask if there's anything you can do, to help Homura trust you with this.
    ---[X] Tracking measures? If Homura could know where O&K are all the time?
    ---[X] Explain your views of Oriko? At length?
    --[X] Mention the problems with the house arrest. Psychological harm, long term viabilty, death by stir-crazyness induce gem blackening and subsequent cleanup not fitting the crime...
    --[X] Apologize for needing to put her through this.
    --[X] Ask her to consider it.
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Bringing Oriko and Kirika's tragic alternate universe past into this is a terrible idea and likely to blow up spectacularly.

Discussing it at all threatens to reveal that Homura is a time-refugee, which she really does not want. Phrasing is as hypotheticals and "trust me I have reasons that I can't tell you, but take it on faith" is just teaching Sayaka that Sabrina is slinging bullshit. Especially because our only possible confirmation is Homura, who is quite reasonably going to point out that her specialized secret mystery information leads her to the exact opposite conclusion, that Oriko and Kirika are super-dangerous and should never be allowed out, and even house arrest is a terrible risk.


Just lay it out with logic and start building a framework for later decisions.
  1. We can't reasonably imprison Oriko and Kirika forever. It would be immoral, and we don't have the resources anyhow.
  2. Sabrina can't make decisions about releasing them unilaterally, nor should she.
  3. So, please, start thinking about what it would take for you to be OK with releasing them someday. Not right now. Not tomorrow. Not this week. When you're satisfied that they're genuinely reformed. When they aren't a threat to anyone, and they've been sufficiently punished for the terrible stuff they did.
  4. That's all. Just spend some time thinking about what it will take, what safeguards we need to have, how long is appropriate, what restitution they can make, etc, and come up with a plan.
  5. Some other time, we can compare notes, and see what everyone thinks, instead of springing a big dramatic decision on you suddenly.
  6. Now everyone hug Homura.
 
[X] Onmur

Going with this vote because it has us talking with Homura alone, which is the only way we're ever going to be able to cover her concerns, and we probably should do that before talking to Sayaka more. Homura is the one we really need to convince.
 
Right, this has turned into a mess. I think we need to completely ignore the word-count limit for at least this update. If anyone has suggestions, I am willing to edit this vote to take them into account, so long as they fit with the core approach.

[X] Rules: Do not reveal loops, do not witchbomb, do not potential bomb. Do not interrupt others, break update for vote if a response is required that is not covered by this vote. Sabrina's tone should be calm, thoughtful, conciliatory. No braindamage, full serious mode.

[X] Take a moment to calm down. Apologize to Sayaka. You had honestly been wanting to establish general process for handling future events, and didn't think about how manipulative it might look. Offer cleanses.
[X] Make it clear that you won't do anything different regarding O&K without express agreement from the entire group.
[X] Arrange for privacy for all four, by timestop or griefhax. If griefhax is used, employ grief fog to hunt down hidden Incubators within field.
[X] Establish your motives. Explain that you knew about O&K, just like the others. That your knowledge includes things that have been or could have been. Describe events feeding into Oriko's self-destructive approach to "heroism", and how your metaknowledge indicates she would only act if she thought it would be self-sacrificingly "heroic". Apparently whoever it was that gave you that knowledge made sure that you couldn't help but feel empathy for Oriko, despite her attacking you and your friends.
[X] Establish your position. House arrest keeps Oriko in place she found her father's body. Justice is one thing, that is something else. Your objections aren't over imprisonment or punishment, but that it be humane. House arrest also has only worked because Oriko has cooperated.
[X] Establish situation. The people involved, the limitations on our actions, our options for handling O&K, and the ramifications of those options. (See below the vote for details on this.) Don't delve into Homura's concerns, she knows them and doesn't want them brought up.
[X] Make proposal:
-[X] Change imprisonment location. Add electronic security to location.
-[X] Add mundane and magical tracking to O&K. Mami tracking ribbon and house arrest ankle tracker as concrete examples.
-[X] Scheduled outings with guard(s) -- prisoners get yard time, after all.
-[X] Bring up having a Sayaklone guard.
-[X] Continued community service.
-[X] Any anti-magic used on security measures, or other sort of break-out attempt, escalates our response and their punishment. Make this clear to O&K.
-[X] Make it clear you'd accept suggestions. This isn't "my way or the highway".
-[X] If proposal is insufficiently punishing, ask what would be sufficient.
[X] OOC meta-note: Take as much screen-time as needed to fully detail Sabrina's motives, position, and thoughts on the matter, even if it takes multiple updates or requires a time-skip to preserve proper story flow. We've repeatedly run into issues where Sabrina breezed through things that votes had intended to go over more fully, or had Sabrina act in ways counter to the intent of the vote, due to the "150 words of vague direction" limitation. I'm utterly ignoring that limitation here, because I think it would do vastly more harm than good to try to play wordgames instead of actually addressing the update.

I'm going to copypaste my blathering on the general situation from Discord, rather than specifically inserting the material into the vote, because it would become an unwieldy mess.
[1:47 PM] Sabrina: There are eight people whose utility is directly impacted by the issue of Oriko and Kirika's treatment
[1:48 PM] Sabrina: Oriko, Kirika, Sayaka, Homura, Hitomi, Mami, Madoka, and Sabrina.
[1:49 PM] Sabrina: Oriko and Kirika are obvious in terms of how their treatment impacts them
[1:49 PM] Sabrina: Sayaka, Homura, and Hitomi as well, as the immediately aggrieved parties, with Mami and Madoka as indirectly aggrieved parties
[1:50 PM] Sabrina: With Sabrina largely being impacted by the way that different approaches impact everyone else
[1:51 PM] Sabrina: The Kures' preferences would largely be toward greater leniency, though not to as full of an extent as might generally be assumed, due to Oriko's tendency to think she deserves to be punished, largely due to various pre-existing factors which also informed her approach to the actions that were at the root of all of this
[1:53 PM] Sabrina: Sayaka and Hitomi have been directly impacted by the Kures' actions in this timeline, while Homura's stake in this is largely due to the "beyond-the-pale" level of transgressions performed by alternate-timeline versions of the Kures.
[1:56 PM] Sabrina: Sayaka's primary motivation on the matter is personal loss of emotionally significant personal property, dislocation of her family and ensuing debts incurred, as well as a general belief in the ideal of "Justice" mandating that people who have committed similar acts be imprisoned (to ensure no additional crimes are committed, as punishment, and as rehabilitation, with the exact balance of rationales and desired effects likely varying by instance).
[1:58 PM] Sabrina: Hitomi's primary motivation on the matter does not appear to be the deliberate injury inflicted on her by Kirika, instead being the damages inflicted on her friend as well as general principles and ideals on the matter, to the extent of becoming very incensed at the thought that Sabrina carried out a summary retaliatory maiming on her behalf. It's also possible that she is unconvinced that the matter ought to be decided upon by Sabrina, rather than by mundane authorities.
[2:01 PM] Sabrina: Homura's stated primary motivation is ensuring that Madoka is safe from any efforts made by the Kures to harm her, however it is also quite clear that there is significant personal animus against Oriko in particular for her alternate timeline counterpart's actions.
[2:02 PM] Sabrina: Mami and Madoka's investment in the issue is largely similar, in that people whom they care about were harmed by the Kures.
[2:02 PM] Sabrina: Though Mami's position as "lead magical girl of Mitakihara" colors the particulars of her responses
[2:05 PM] Sabrina: Now, with motives established, let's look at our limiting factors.
[2:06 PM] Sabrina: We have harshly limited manpower to spend on maintaining a guard, to the extent that their existing punishment has largely operated solely due to the full cooperation of the Kures.
[2:08 PM] Sabrina: Our existing assortment of powers, once accounting for other limiting factors on them, are not particularly useful in finding a substitute
[2:08 PM] Sabrina: (e.g. Locking them up inside our barrier could very well work, but runs into the potential issues that creating a barrier might result in)
[2:10 PM] Sabrina: The supermajority of involved parties are opposed to capital punishment, at least in this instance, with one notable exception.
[2:11 PM] Sabrina: Kirika's power makes any magical measures put into place highly dubious in effectiveness.
[2:12 PM] Sabrina: Outside magical girls are aware of the existence of the Kures, and our treatment of them will have ramifications in terms of our group's reputation.
[2:16 PM] Sabrina: An additional complicating factor is that the Kures have on several occasions provided us with support in our endeavors (Oriko's precognitive support especially with regards to Sayaka being witch kissed, Kirika providing assistance in Sendai, Oriko and Kirika providing assistance in Asunaro)
[2:18 PM] Sabrina: With all of the above in mind, there are a few potential ways to alter the status quo that have been brought up before.
[2:19 PM] Sabrina: Relocation. That is, maintain house arrest as current, but change the location of the house arrest to one that is less psychologically harmful to Oriko than her family home.
[2:20 PM] Sabrina: Exile. Kick the Kures out of Mitakihara under threat of suitably severe penalties if they return.
[2:22 PM] Sabrina: Execution. Homura's preferred option, at least initially, though current factors have likely made it so that she won't feel comfortable advocating for it.
[2:25 PM] Sabrina: De-gemming. Effectively an inescapable imprisonment and/or reversible execution depending on philosophical stance, rapidly runs into a wide array of ethical issues, as well as practical issues, such as objections from others involved or group reputation.
[2:27 PM] Sabrina: Probation. Lift house arrest while placing tracking devices on the Kures.
[2:28 PM] Sabrina: Formal Imprisonment. Assign full-time guards to keep an eye on the Kures. Requires sufficient magical girlpower to put into practice.
[2:28 PM] Sabrina: Mind Alteration. Find a magical girl whose powers permit her to rewrite behaviors. Manages to run into even more ethical and practical issues than de-gemming, which is impressive.
 
Last edited:
[X] Godwinson

I am not sure I'm properly capable of being part of the quest at this time but Veb's vote is a major problem... and a glace this looks like it has a chance in it's own right at least.
 
@Firnagzen
Let me know if I need to go through and format the stuff from the bottom of my post into the vote itself. It'd be hideous as hell and massively inflate the size of the vote simply to establish what's largely been gone over in the thread previously, but I can do it if I have to.
Adhoc vote count started by Godwinson on Mar 30, 2018 at 11:14 AM, finished with 143 posts and 25 votes.
  • [X] Rules: Do not reveal loops, do not witchbomb, do not potential bomb. Do not interrupt others, break update for vote if a response is required that is not covered by this vote. Sabrina's tone should be calm, thoughtful, conciliatory. No braindamage, full serious mode.
    [X] Take a moment to calm down. Apologize to Sayaka. You had honestly been wanting to establish general process for handling future events, and didn't think about how manipulative it might look. Offer cleanses.
    [X] Make it clear that you won't do anything different regarding O&K without express agreement from the entire group.
    [X] Arrange for privacy for all four, by timestop or griefhax. If griefhax is used, employ grief fog to hunt down hidden Incubators within field.
    [X] Establish your motives. Explain that you knew about O&K, just like the others. That your knowledge includes things that have been or could have been. Describe events feeding into Oriko's self-destructive approach to "heroism", and how your metaknowledge indicates she would only act if she thought it would be self-sacrificingly "heroic". Apparently whoever it was that gave you that knowledge made sure that you couldn't help but feel empathy for Oriko, despite her attacking you and your friends.
    [X] Establish your position. House arrest keeps Oriko in place she found her father's body. Justice is one thing, that is something else. Your objections aren't over imprisonment or punishment, but that it be humane. House arrest also has only worked because Oriko has cooperated.
    [X] Establish situation. The people involved, the limitations on our actions, our options for handling O&K, and the ramifications of those options. (See below the vote for details on this.) Don't delve into Homura's concerns, she knows them and doesn't want them brought up.
    [X] Make proposal:
    -[X] Change imprisonment location. Add electronic security to location.
    -[X] Add mundane and magical tracking to O&K. Mami tracking ribbon and house arrest ankle tracker as concrete examples.
    -[X] Scheduled outings with guard(s) -- prisoners get yard time, after all.
    -[X] Bring up having a Sayaklone guard.
    -[X] Continued community service.
    -[X] Any anti-magic used on security measures, or other sort of break-out attempt, escalates our response and their punishment. Make this clear to O&K.
    -[X] Make it clear you'd accept suggestions. This isn't "my way or the highway".
    -[X] If proposal is insufficiently punishing, ask what would be sufficient.
    [X] OOC meta-note: Take as much screen-time as needed to fully detail Sabrina's motives, position, and thoughts on the matter, even if it takes multiple updates or requires a time-skip to preserve proper story flow. We've repeatedly run into issues where Sabrina breezed through things that votes had intended to go over more fully, or had Sabrina act in ways counter to the intent of the vote, due to the "150 words of vague direction" limitation. I'm utterly ignoring that limitation here, because I think it would do vastly more harm than good to try to play wordgames instead of actually addressing the update.
    [X] Apologize to everyone for putting them through this.
    [X] Reassure nothing's gonna happen without everyone's say-so.
    [X] Ask Mami if she could track O&K like she did Anri.
    [X] Homura:
    -[X] Ask to speak privately.
    -[X] Take your time, relax. Prioritize Homura's well being.
    -[X] Ask how she's feeling.
    -[X] Talk about Oriko?
    --[X] Ask Homura what she wants.
    --[X] Points:
    ---[X] We wouldn't be us if we let Oriko die. In the state she is, she will.
    ---[X] Offer your insight on Oriko's motives; why you think this will work better.
    ---[X] Main:
    ----[X] Issues with house arrest. Long term viability.
    ----[X] Tracking methods. What if Homura could know where O&K are *all* the time?
    ----[X] Anything we can do, for her to trust us with this?
    [X] Since we have limited resources and people to handle this, and imprisoning meguca is expensive and difficult, meguca justice has to be about preventing further harm, not punishment. We applied that principle in Sendai, and it worked well. Like with Sendai, we don't have to like it, but it has to work, and it has proven itself so far.
    -[X] Emphasize to Sayaka the harm Sendai group caused over the years, and how light their "punishment" was. But the outcome was successful.
    -[X] Explain to Sayaka that, as misguided and wrong as Oriko's actions were, they were done with the intention of saving Sayaka's life from a threat she didn't understand and couldn't figure out how to deal with. One that Sayaka should already know is real and dangerous--it nearly killed her just before she contracted, after all.
    [X] To mollify Homura's concerns, propose making a robust Grief Lie Detector construct, and testing it yourselves. Propose using it to question Oriko and Kirika.
    [X] O&K suffering real harm right now. Meguca more vulnerable to emotional harm than anyone. Accommodations must be made, for their health.
    [X] Tone: Weary. Tired of fighting over this, and getting nowhere, over and over.
    [X] Walpurgisnacht is coming. There is a very real chance some of us will get hurt or die defending the city. Are Sayaka and Homura willing to let O&K help?
    [X] If so, then we'll owe them something for it, more than just locking them out of sight and throwing away the key.
    [X] But until that time, you're done talking about this. And sorry for bringing it up in the first place.
    [X] Ask Sayaka, as a personal favour, to give some thought to what she wants from Oriko. Actual thought and deliberation, and not a snap judgement made in anger. She might not see it, but this is for her own sake as well.
    [X] Thank them for listening to you. An additional, smaller thanks to Homura via telepathy.
    [X] Lean on Mami and rest. It's been a long day.
    [x] Deep breath. Apologize. "I'm terrified of this discussion going wrong; as a result, I'm handling it badly."
    -[x] Acknowledge: Pushing too fast. Explain: accelerated perception of time; it's been today for six months; since capturing Oriko, 3.5 years.
    -[x] Make clear: Not arguing 'release/absolve O&K'. And nothing without Homura's/Sayaka's go-ahead.
    [x] Sayaka: Want my reasoning, the hell I'm thinking? Gladly. But first: private concerns I've mishandled.
    [x] Homura: Ask: Talk privately?
    -[x] I'm sorry. Not trying to corner you. Ask how she's feeling; "Help me understand."
    -[x] Re: Oriko:
    --[x] Any middle ground between indefinite detention/execution and full liberty she can tolerate? Constant tracking/monitoring? Take her answer into account continuing conversation.
    --[x] Anything we can do, to help Homura trust us here?
    ---[x] Explain thoughts- Oriko, associated reasoning/information- at length?
    --[x] House arrest concerns: psychological damage; long-term viability; death-and-subsequent-witching-by-stir-crazyness-induced-gem-blackening not proportionate punishment
    -[x] Ask her to consider it.
    -[x] Apologetic: Sayaka needs Oriko's background. Won't share Homura's secrets- but must explain own.
    [x] Exit timestop; break to vote.
    [X] Proposal: exile the Kures to a desert island somewhere, maybe under a nondetection field.
    -[X] Oriko seemed to think something would assassinate her if she didn't stay close to us, but maybe the nondetection field would prevent that.
    [X] Proposal: send the Kures to Fukushima as prisoners.
    [X] Proposal: gem the Kures, hold their soul gems, store them (maybe in hammerspace?) until after Walpurgisnacht.
    -[X] Arguably this is their best chance of surviving the month.
    [X] Proposal: Sayaka, would beating them up make you feel better? We don't really like violence, but if this would solve the problem...
    [X] If none of this seems to work, back down and apologize.
    [x] Null
    [x] Request timestop. Sayaka wants to decide when Oriko has been sufficiently punished? She gets to decide.
    [x] Lay out every fact you have.
    -[x] Explain the format of your metaknowledge: Pasts and futures that never happened and cannot happen, but that illustrate how people behave.
    --[x] Take care to communicate to Homura that you are not discussing her loops. Not every alternate past or future is about her.
    -[x] Oriko's history. The possible alternate Orikos and their stories.
    --[x] When you get to the part where Oriko killed Madoka, let Homura confirm that Madoka contracting would be game-over and refuse to explain further.
    -[x] All of your hypotheses about Oriko's psychology, how she was trying to commit honorable suicide, and how you're pretty sure the house arrest was the best her power could find for that after you captured her.
    -[x] The hole you've dug for yourself by not letting Homura execute her on the spot, why you need to resolve this before it tears the Mitakihara group apart and ruins everything.
    -[x] All of the possible courses of action you have for dealing with Oriko and mitigating this catastrophe. Exile, relocation, chaperones, whatever.
    [x] Leave nothing out. If it takes six hours, if Firnagzen has to write the quest's first material timeskip, so be it, we have timestop and we've fucked this up too often by trying to be open and honest while shouting through a 150-word-long garden hose.
    [x] So, Sayaka. What do you want to do?
    [X] Mami:
    -[X] Ask if she could track O&K like she did Anri. Homura or Sayaka could hold the other end?
    [X] Homura:
    -[X] Ask to talk privately.
    -[X] Take a moment.
    -[X] I understand I'm pushing but how much? I can't help but think that if we go around detaining people indefinitely without at least a coherent policy on when do so, we're just as bad as any of the more exploitive magical girl groups out there. Is the line Arson? Assault? Things the media would call an act of terrorism? How much does intent matter?
    -[X] Talk about Oriko?
    --[X] Is there a middle ground between indefinite detention/execution and full liberty you can tolerate? Take her answer into account as much as possible.
    --[X] Ask if there's anything you can do, to help Homura trust you with this.
    ---[X] Tracking measures? If Homura could know where O&K are all the time?
    ---[X] Explain your views of Oriko? At length?
    --[X] Mention the problems with the house arrest. Psychological harm, long term viabilty, death by stir-crazyness induce gem blackening and subsequent cleanup not fitting the crime...
    --[X] Apologize for needing to put her through this.
    --[X] Ask her to consider it.
Click to expand...
 
Wait we're allowed to go over the wordcount? If so, then yeah,

[x] Godwinson

I support laying out all the intel- and this way is probably better than full table flip, which is one of the only other ways I can see to get everyone to actually take in our information. Also, I can stop hellsplicing!

Skelm said:
This seems like a dangerous line. It's basically telling Homura that we're compromised and she can't trust us.

[X] Godwinson
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

... I thought it's more bringing up the fact that both we and Homura both know that it's probably Madoka who created us, without saying it outright to the others.
 
I think robot Sabrina may not be a good call here. They are allowed to feel so are we. Though it has... interesting implications.

Though I imagine it would impress Homura.

Does Sayaka that Orikos prediction probably saved her life.
 
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