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but in a quest like this where votes are by necessity huge sprawling affairs there's only ever going to be a few people who make votes anyway..

I've been thinking about that. Is that a problem to be solved, or just an inherent part of this type of questing?

Edit: One thing I could do to make the reporting a lot more accessible is to have checkboxes for 'tell Van Hal about a) Action 1 b) Action 2' and so on. I'll give that a shot after this coming turn.
 
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I've been thinking about that. Is that a problem to be solved, or just an inherent part of this type of questing?

Edit: One thing I could do to make the reporting a lot more accessible is to have checkboxes for 'tell Van Hal about a) Action 1 b) Action 2' and so on. I'll give that a shot after this coming turn.
I dunno.

Things might get better if we can trust our new LT to handle basic information-gathering and expanding the spy network- maybe just bring us down to 5 actions plus overwork, and give Julia automatic 'gather information' and 'expand the network' actions? So our 5 actions would just be self-improvement (house, magic, swords, whatever), Friendship actions with the other councillors, and fieldwork.

You could even bring that down to 4 actions, and get a dedicated Friendship action every turn to flesh out the councillors. I sure wouldn't mind.
 
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Honestly I don't feel like the number of options so far have been to much, I've like the amount of discussion and the update speed.
 
I'd say anywhere between two and twelve hours for a moratorium would be best, depending on the importance of the vote.

[X] [Julia] Hire her, buy her a home in town near your residence. Somewhere where people coming and going at odd times won't draw a fuss.
-[X] Her job would be to manage your informant networks in general, particularly sorting through the reports and picking out what's significant versus chaff. It'd also involve independently expanding the networks as funds and opportunities allow after she has settled in.
-[X] The only ones who are supposed to know her position should be Van Hal, yourself and anyone you specifically cleared for this. For anyone below her, she's to present herself as a messenger or other relay.

[X] [Greatswords] Greatswords will stay in the castle, except when we're going somewhere publicly, or interrogating potentially hostile persons. Assign two of them as security for Julia.

[X] [Public Report] Plan Points for public consumption.
-[X] The castle infiltrators were sleeper agents.
--[X] They have not been conducting any significant sabotage.
--[X] Their loyalty was secured by a necromantic spell that would kill them if they even thought of betraying their master, or if their master did not meet them for more than a few days.
--[X] Said master had fled the area the very night an infiltrator got caught.
--[X] The monsters in the castle walls were previous victims of the spell. Refer to Van Hal's paper on details if anyone is interested.
--[X] They were lying about having any religious beliefs, but got away with it because nobody could probe them further on Morrite or Shallyan practices.
-[X] All other castle servants have been examined, their backstories hold up and all futureservants would be rigorously examined to prevent more of this.
 
Actually, on further thought I've previously said that a minimum of 24 hours is required for everyone to have a chance to chime in, and I don't want to go back on that. I apologize for my indecision. Voting reopened, and I welcome people to continue voting and discussion on previous topics.

While waiting for the clock to run down I'd like to start a discussion on whether the quest would benefit from a discussion period after each turn with a voting moratorium. It came up earlier and it was decided it wasn't a problem, but it looks like readership has increased and I've seen multiple people saying they'd like a different vote but don't want to challenge an established voting bloc that got in during the first hour after a turn went up. How would everyone feel about, say, a 24-hour moratorium on voting, followed by 24 hours for voting? I don't want to have any period less than 24 hours, because I'm very aware of time zones being a thing and I don't want anyone shut out because they check the forums at the 'wrong' time of day.
The single best feature of this quest is its rapid update speed. Having in excess of 48 hours between updates would seriously damage that and make the quest worse overall. Heck, I'm not even that enthused by giving a full 24 hours for voting between updates; if you're determined to give everyone a say and like the idea of not immediately accepting votes to enforce discussion, then a predictable schedule (votes close every day at time X, update is posted during the hours following, then votes open every day at time Y) is more than enough to give people the chance to keep track of things and chime in. Yes, it might not perfectly fit everyone's schedule, but as long as votes are open for most of the day then if the schedule is predictable people who care about the quest can act to fit the quest's schedule.

I've been thinking about that. Is that a problem to be solved, or just an inherent part of this type of questing?

Edit: One thing I could do to make the reporting a lot more accessible is to have checkboxes for 'tell Van Hal about a) Action 1 b) Action 2' and so on. I'll give that a shot after this coming turn.
It's mostly inherent, but option proliferation is something to be avoided unless you actually like that kind of thing. Personally I'd rather have more of the quest be automated- why are we tracking our home's expansion on a room by room basis, or needing to deliberately buy furniture as an action? Do we actually need to be tracking infiltrators and informants and such for every single village in Stirland (or even outside Stirland, if we ever get to external politics)? That's going to make this one of the quests that needs spreadsheets to track, before too much longer. Why is it near-impossible to talk to other people unless we spend a solid month of our time following them around, resulting in a situation where there are other Council members who we have literally never spoken to at all?

A lot of this stuff can just get abstracted away to be made smoother and more reasonable while reducing option bloat at the same time. Unless you're deliberately wanting things to be the way they are now?
 
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I'd settle for four hours moratorium, it allows both enough time for proper discussion but also gives enough time to prevent early bird bandwagoning.
 
It's mostly inherent, but option proliferation is something to be avoided unless you actually like that kind of thing. Personally I'd rather have more of the quest be automated- why are we tracking our home's expansion on a room by room basis, or needing to deliberately buy furniture as an action? Do we actually need to be tracking infiltrators and informants and such for every single village in Stirland (or even outside Stirland, if we ever get to external politics)? That's going to make this one of the quests that needs spreadsheets to track, before too much longer. Why is it near-impossible to talk to other people unless we spend a solid month of our time following them around, resulting in a situation where there are other Council members who we have literally never spoken to at all?

A lot of this stuff can just get abstracted away. Unless you're deliberately wanting things to be the way they are now?
I agree with this. The quest could do with some more abstraction (we needed to vote to buy pants for pete's sake. That should definetly have been automatic).
 
Personally I'd rather have more of the quest be automated- why are we tracking our home's expansion on a room by room basis, or needing to deliberately buy furniture as an action?

This is because I feel that where someone lives is an important part of who they are, so fleshing out Mathilde's home fleshes out Mathilde.

Do we actually need to be tracking infiltrators and informants and such for every single village in Stirland (or even outside Stirland, if we ever get to external politics)? That's going to make this one of the quests that needs spreadsheets to track, before too much longer.

That's a good point. So far I'm keeping track of contacts on the character sheet, but I might have to start colour-coding a map of Stirland if things grow much more. A lieutenant will also start abstracing the information network side of things.

Why is it near-impossible to talk to other people unless we spend a solid month of our time following them around, resulting in a situation where there are other Council members who we have literally never spoken to at all?

Because it forces interesting decisions. So far people have been focusing on doing the job and improving skills rather than networking with coworkers, and it's come back to bite them when they do things like trying to lean on Wilhelmina for shoring up Van Hal's religious sensibilities.

And spending an action on getting to know someone doesn't just do that, it also means you're assisting them with doing their job - if they're doing something you feel could benefit from your assistance or oversight, or just something that's too important for you to not lend a hand with, then that's the time to start cozying up to them.

I agree with this. The quest could do with some more abstraction (we needed to vote to buy pants for pete's sake. That should definetly have been automatic).

That was a vote between practicality and comedy.
 
I've been thinking about that. Is that a problem to be solved, or just an inherent part of this type of questing?

This happens in most quests. There are always going to be a few front runners that make the plans that everyone else chooses between. This happens because either people don't feel comfortable creating a plan or don't have the time to. I know I don't most of the time because I'm usually at work when things update. A moratorium can help but you're still going to have the same few people hashing out plans for the most part, the extra time will just allow them to compromise easier, before the bandwagoning makes them hesitant to change what they have.

The best advise I can tell you is to try and streamline things a bit. More generalized actions and less open ended ones will create less friction between people because they won't have to argue over the smaller details.
 
I've been thinking about that. Is that a problem to be solved, or just an inherent part of this type of questing?
Earlier (turn 2-3), off-turns were six lines and main-turns were twenty lines. Now they're both thirty. Something has changed, that does not look inherent to me.

I think part of it is one-time things like "Greatswords" that shouldn't need to come up again for a while. "Embezzling" has already been handled this way, it's at a stable level and not likely to enter into main turn plans in the near future. Try to make stuff that will be decided once and then stay decided.
Part of it is micromanagement of minor items. "Buying clothes" being a particularly sharp example to me. This seems like something Mathilde should have been able to handle on her own, and the players will have to deal with the occasional expenditure not under their specific control.
And part of it is micromanagement of free actions (which is not necessarily the same thing as minor items). For example, picking which towns to assign how many gossipy veterans to. This could perhaps have been folded into an Intrigue/Learning roll to assign them to sensible places.

In general, I think it's a possible "ratchet" that can happen where a thing occurs, players think the thing could be optimized, players ask for fine control over the thing, and the list of things that need fine control just keeps expanding. To solve this, be resistant to allowing micromanagement in the first place, and when it's done, quickly return control to Mathilde and the QM rather than having it recur in later votes.
Edit: Also, related, it's much easier to suggest "your plan should add an entry for X" than "your plan should remove X".
And the "Roll for pneumonia because you didn't get furniture" further feeds into the drive to micromanage and make long explicit lists of things, and then long explicit lists of things feed right back into the vicious circle, where things not on the list are more easily interpreted as deliberate omissions or at least punishable mistakes.
 
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That's a good point. So far I'm keeping track of contacts on the character sheet, but I might have to start colour-coding a map of Stirland if things grow much more. A lieutenant will also start abstracing the information network side of things.

Earlier (turn 2-3), off-turns were six lines and main-turns were twenty lines. Now they're both thirty. Something has changed, that does not look inherent to me.

I think part of it is one-time things like "Greatswords" that shouldn't need to come up again for a while. "Embezzling" has already been handled this way, it's at a stable level and not likely to enter into main turn plans in the near future. Try to make stuff that will be decided once and then stay decided.
Part of it is micromanagement of minor items. "Buying clothes" being a particularly sharp example to me. This seems like something Mathilde should have been able to handle on her own, and the players will have to deal with the occasional expenditure not under their specific control.
And part of it is micromanagement of free actions (which is not necessarily the same thing as minor items). For example, picking which towns to assign how many gossipy veterans to. This could perhaps have been folded into an Intrigue/Learning roll to assign them to sensible places.

In general, I think it's a possible "ratchet" that can happen where a thing occurs, players think the thing could be optimized, players ask for fine control over the thing, and the list of things that need fine control just keeps expanding. To solve this, be resistant to allowing micromanagement in the first place, and when it's done, quickly return control to Mathilde and the QM rather than having it recur in later votes.
Edit: Also, related, it's much easier to suggest "your plan should add an entry for X" than "your plan should remove X".
And the "Roll for pneumonia because you didn't think of furniture" further feeds into the drive to micromanage and make long explicit lists of things, and then long explicit lists of things feed right back into the vicious circle, where things not on the list are more easily interpreted as deliberate omissions or at least punishable mistakes.

I think taking a look at poptart prodigy's Mass Effect quest is a goo idea. Every single time players have started to show consistent interest in an action that would require micromanagement, he automated it the best he could.

Players find a lot of possible mining sites? Set up the Bureau of Off-world Mining (forgot name).
Then set up vote:
- Which way do you want the BOWM to focus prospecting efforts in the future?
  1. Northward (includes clusters of semi-habitable planets)
  2. Eastward (Eezo sources available)
  3. Westward (Would solidify claimed borders with neighbouring faction)
  4. Southward (Many mineral deposits, some eezo)
It was a really good way to abstract out choices that have marginal impact but are micro intensive. Also had in-game impact as conglomerates thought the government was trying to over-regulate them, so it kept things fresh.

Likewise, once we have Julia to assist us, we should simply give her a priority of places we should expand our Veterans net and let her handle it.
 
Actually, on further thought I've previously said that a minimum of 24 hours is required for everyone to have a chance to chime in, and I don't want to go back on that. I apologize for my indecision. Voting reopened, and I welcome people to continue voting and discussion on previous topics.

While waiting for the clock to run down I'd like to start a discussion on whether the quest would benefit from a discussion period after each turn with a voting moratorium. It came up earlier and it was decided it wasn't a problem, but it looks like readership has increased and I've seen multiple people saying they'd like a different vote but don't want to challenge an established voting bloc that got in during the first hour after a turn went up. How would everyone feel about, say, a 24-hour moratorium on voting, followed by 24 hours for voting? I don't want to have any period less than 24 hours, because I'm very aware of time zones being a thing and I don't want anyone shut out because they check the forums at the 'wrong' time of day.
A moratorium shorter than 24 hours would be good.
12 hours? It's long enough for anyone sleeping or at work during an update to get the new post alert.
 
Because it forces interesting decisions. So far people have been focusing on doing the job and improving skills rather than networking with coworkers, and it's come back to bite them when they do things like trying to lean on Wilhelmina for shoring up Van Hal's religious sensibilities.
I don't think that's quite fair towards Mathilda. If normal human interaction of any kind is behind a limited bi-yearly vote that will always cause the quest character to be a friendless shut-in.
I mean imagine if normal human interaction with one specific person was walled behind giving up one of six things you can do in as many months. How often would you interact with, say, your mother? Would you be able to juggle your romantic endeavors with friends, a job, house cleaning, bureaucracy stuff and writing this quest?

And spending an action on getting to know someone doesn't just do that, it also means you're assisting them with doing their job - if they're doing something you feel could benefit from your assistance or oversight, or just something that's too important for you to not lend a hand with, then that's the time to start cozying up to them.
So... How would having dinner on a single evening work?
Or to put it differently, in many vote we get subvotes to alter the action, often with write-ins. What would happen if we voted for "[] Get to know our colleagues --[] Have a one on one dinner with each of them where we talk about what we think of each other and how we could help each other."?
 
I'm a bit concerned that Wilhelma has the Corruption Motivation. She seems too good at her job, with no weird quirks. The only others like that are Schultz and us, and we're both sleeper agents.
 
I don't think that's quite fair towards Mathilda. If normal human interaction of any kind is behind a limited bi-yearly vote that will always cause the quest character to be a friendless shut-in.
I mean imagine if normal human interaction with one specific person was walled behind giving up one of six things you can do in as many months. How often would you interact with, say, your mother? Would you be able to juggle your romantic endeavors with friends, a job, house cleaning, bureaucracy stuff and writing this quest?
I certainly wouldn't if not meeting my mother meant I could learn how to cast illusion magic instead!

I'd probably still do it instead of buying furniture to put in my house.
 
Having looked over the leading votes once again, three things I feel are problems.

First, we're assigning two Greatswords (highly effective but quite unsubtle bodyguards and bruisers) to Julia while also putting her in an anonymous house in town and saying that her employment and job should be kept fairly quiet. I'm not saying that these points can't be reconciled, but doing so is not intuitive. Assigning greatswords to her would be better suited to if she's got a job in the castle and is known semi-publicly as our subordinate. Without that option, we probably want to get her (and her base of operations) some less eye-catching bodyguards.

Second, the Ranald part of the vote is...
-[X] Confess your religious belief in Ranald to him. Mention how the god of Luck had been looking out for and helping you along with your work so far(particularly avoiding being killed by the Shyish-kebabs, and finding leads at crucial moments), and the belief that Ranald as Protector has a vested interest in Stirland's people not being eaten by vampires and turned into abominations by necromancers. The revolutionary thing happens only in places where their lords are actively abusing the people, which Van Hal of course, is doing the opposite of!
What does this actually accomplish? Okay, we're letting Van Hal know that we worship Ranald, sure, but so what? Van Hal already knows perfectly well that the gods care for the people of Stirland- he praised the non-Sigmar cults recently for stepping into the gaps when the church of Sigmar withdrew to the cities. He even still believes Sigmar cares. It's their earthly servants that he's losing faith in. Nor is this particularly phrased as a conversion attempt for Van Hal in particular, so we're not doing that. At best, this results in him putting Ranald on the same level as, say, Ulric with regard to legitimacy as a religion for one of his counselors.

This action just drops some potentially sensitive information about us on him without making it clear why we're telling him this. Is it because we want to be honest with him about our religious beliefs, so he can trust and understand us more? Because we want his authorization to build up Ranald cults as informants? Do we think that Ranald would be well suited to Van Hal as a person? What's the point here? The man's going through a crisis of faith at the moment and bringing up religion to him is likely to be a delicate topic, so saying something like this without a clear and well-defined goal seems foolish.

Third, the religion action option.
-[X] This religion business has gone far enough. It's not really your place, but maybe you should step in and deal with it yourself... somehow.
--[X] There's alternative ways to verifying faith and beliefs than having a priest interrogate them. You could task your city and rural informants to focus on their local practices to identify if theres anything untowards happening religiously.
The "religion business" that needs dealing with is basically everything that the Piety advisor has to do. Van Hal has already investigated for cult potential and found that the non-Sigmar religions have stepped into the gap, but he needs large numbers of trained priests all working together, supporting the army and ministering to the populace- not just cult detection. Aside from that, we can't even get him gossip from all across Stirland right now, and we're offering to get him religious reporting? I feel like this is proposing a solution that is weak at best, attacking only part of the issue and largely demonstrating to Van Hal that we're foolishly suggesting we can solve a problem that we don't even fully understand.

Ultimately the subvote weakens the vote and should be done away with entirely or replaced with something that basically says "as long as Van Hal can tell you what to do, you'll do it, even if it's not the traditional remit of the Intrigue counselor". Because we've certainly demonstrated that we lack a proper grasp of what's happening right now.

...that said, I spent enough time arguing votes yesterday and lack the energy or inclination to try to force an alternate vote here, so this is mostly just a "@veekie please change what you've written to account for these" that may or may not be listened to upon his hopefully-inevitable return. If someone else wants to try and deal with these issues I can back them, though.

I'm a bit concerned that Wilhelma has the Corruption Motivation. She seems too good at her job, with no weird quirks. The only others like that are Schultz and us, and we're both sleeper agents.
Considering that Wilhelmina has fifteen years of history working with a paranoid witch hunter and that we know precious little about her, I'm not inclined to jump to that conclusion. For all we know she's got Nepotism and half the Stirland government is related to her by now but we've never noticed.
 
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Where is the snake since it isn't here?

Also I wonder if in a negaverse would the players be shipping the Count with us? I mean we have magic and that's always a plus, and he did see us in our under clothes. I wonder what he thought about that.

Are we hot or not?
 
Correct. The Jade Wizard aunt is one sticking point. Do you tell him about the midnight snacks? About WIlhelmina's anti-Sigmarite bent? Every single interaction you've ever had with any of them? The only reason not to specify what you are telling him is that you're hoping the QM will remember something you don't, which is cheeky.
Noted. I will elaborate in more detail.
Though I was indeed trying to hope that the QM would remember something i missed :p
Regarding memory wipe: it cannot be emphasized enough how much just mentioning your ability to do this is likely to freak out your prospective new hire, and indeed literally anyone you tell it to. Casually talking about reaching into someone's living psyche and tearing out chunks of their life experiences is not a normal thing to do.
Okay, Mindhole goes into the hole. No mindhole.
What does this actually accomplish? Okay, we're letting Van Hal know that we worship Ranald, sure, but so what? Van Hal already knows perfectly well that the gods care for the people of Stirland- he praised the non-Sigmar cults recently for stepping into the gaps when the church of Sigmar withdrew to the cities. He even still believes Sigmar cares. It's their earthly servants that he's losing faith in. Nor is this particularly phrased as a conversion attempt for Van Hal in particular, so we're not doing that. At best, this results in him putting Ranald on the same level as, say, Ulric with regard to legitimacy as a religion for one of his counselors.

This action just drops some potentially sensitive information about us on him without making it clear why we're telling him this. Is it because we want to be honest with him about our religious beliefs, so he can trust and understand us more? Because we want his authorization to build up Ranald cults as informants? Do we think that Ranald would be well suited to Van Hal as a person? What's the point here? The man's going through a crisis of faith at the moment and bringing up religion to him is likely to be a delicate topic, so saying something like this without a clear and well-defined goal seems foolish.
Priming the pump. Reveal our beliefs, see his reaction, then next turn action assignment we can potentially try to convert him...or leave it be. We have reason to believe he'd accept the info regardless.
The "religion business" that needs dealing with is basically everything that the Piety advisor has to do. Van Hal has already investigated for cult potential and found that the non-Sigmar religions have stepped into the gap, but he needs large numbers of trained priests all working together, supporting the army and ministering to the populace- not just cult detection. Aside from that, we can't even get him gossip from all across Stirland right now, and we're offering to get him religious reporting? I feel like this is proposing a solution that is weak at best, attacking only part of the issue and largely demonstrating to Van Hal that we're foolishly suggesting we can solve a problem that we don't even fully understand.

Ultimately the subvote weakens the vote and should be done away with entirely or replaced with something that basically says "as long as Van Hal can tell you what to do, you'll do it, even if it's not the traditional remit of the Intrigue counselor". Because we've certainly demonstrated that we lack a proper grasp of what's happening right now.
The subvote is basically laying out how LIMITED we are in doing this. It's the old "you can order me to do this, but I have very limited ways to accomplish it"
 
[X] [Julia] Hire her, buy her a home in town near your residence. Somewhere where people coming and going at odd times won't draw a fuss.
-[X] Her job would be to manage your informant networks in general, particularly sorting through the reports and picking out what's significant versus chaff. It'd also involve independently expanding the networks as funds and opportunities allow after she has settled in.
-[X] The only ones who are supposed to know her position should be Van Hal, yourself and anyone you specifically cleared for this. For anyone below her, she's to present herself as a messenger or other relay.
-[X] For your initial meeting, probe her religious beliefs and opinion on working with criminals, assassins, magic and proscribed cults to determine how fit she is to assign to your tasks

-[X] Give him all information you have gathered on your fellow council members.
--[X] Anton's Wizard Aunt and the late night sweets through the maid.
--[X] Wilhelmina's lack of belief in Sigmar.
--[X] Kasmir's loyalties, though you're pretty sure he knows already
--[X] Gustav's detailed report from your investigation via the informant in his soldiers.

-[X] This religion business has gone far enough. It's not really your place, but maybe you should step in and deal with it yourself... somehow.
--[X] There's alternative ways to verifying faith and beliefs than having a priest interrogate them. You could task your city and rural informants to focus on their local practices to identify if theres anything untowards happening religiously, though barring a few exceptions, there are few actual priests involved to verify matters in detail.

Revised version.

Also @BoneyM thanks for sticking to the 24 hour vote cycles. I'd hate to screw things up like the vote was going to because I was missing some important clarification due to being too asleep :p
 
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