Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

[Voidseer]

Enterprise has achieved its final form?

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Well looks like everything Fusion Shipyards was completed I wonder what that will open up for us?

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-Snip-

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We will also get to see what construction options open up for completed stations, which is critical information as it gives us a potential peek at what we can expect after we finish Columbia.

i think the spaceport and hospital bays are the only non-housing bay we should do on columbia. and maybe not even the hospital. the spaceport bay seems kinda essential though.

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Given the scale of space construction we're contemplating, functional hospitals in Earth orbit and on the moon seem more or less essential.

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The fabrication bay may also be essential as it will allow for the stations to do a greater modicum of self repair and construction. There are three things a large population center needs (in addition to housing) infrastructure (spaceport), health care (hospital), and industry (fabrication). Something for people to get there, to stay there, and something to do there.

 

[Angle]

The fabrication bay may also be essential as it will allow for the stations to do a greater modicum of self repair and construction.

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I really wish we'd gone for the capital goods, station, and orbital modules for Enterprise. Just gone all in on near earth stuff and then started working on a second station for further out solar system stuff. Still, I guess we'll have the option to do that soon enough.

 

[DarknessSmiles]

The fabrication bay may also be essential as it will allow for the stations to do a greater modicum of self repair and construction. There are three things a large population center needs (in addition to housing) infrastructure (spaceport), health care (hospital), and industry (fabrication). Something for people to get there, to stay there, and something to do while there.

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housing is more important. we have the spacelift we need to handle consumer good level fab earthside for now.

 

[Simon_Jester]

I really wish we'd gone for the capital goods, station, and orbital modules for Enterprise. Just gone all in on near earth stuff and then started working on a second station for further out solar system stuff. Still, I guess we'll have the option to do that soon enough.

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Well, we apparently didn't get six modules on Enterprise the way we do on Columbia and Shala, so I dunno.

Also, I'm not sure the Capital Goods bay would have helped, or that the orbital bay would have helped. You seem to be envisioning this as a "killer app" path that would give us great results, greater than we can hope for on our current path, but I'm not sure why.

housing is more important. we have the spacelift we need to handle consumer good level fab earthside for now.

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The big consideration is whether the main habitat stations are constantly dependent on Earth (or at least space industry not integrated into the station) for basic spare parts, repairs, machine shop work, that kind of thing. Ideally, we want communities that are relatively self-sufficient in that respect, among other things because it makes it more likely that they'll have good upkeep and maintenance practices and be safer for the populace.

Just bolting more space apartments onto a station that already has lots of them isn't necessarily going to be very helpful compared to building a second-generation station that integrates the lessons of the first one.

 

[Hazard]

Most of the stuff in orbit that doesn't require high tech manufacturing can be done on Enterprise.

 

[Angle]

Well, we apparently didn't get six modules on Enterprise the way we do on Columbia and Shala, so I dunno.

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We get six modules for those two? Okay, nice! Hopefully that'll apply to our next industrial station too then.

Also, I'm not sure the Capital Goods bay would have helped, or that the orbital bay would have helped. You seem to be envisioning this as a "killer app" path that would give us great results, greater than we can hope for on our current path, but I'm not sure why.

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I'm envisioning this as a 'Go in heavy on orbital infrastructure' path. Which I think would have made a good springboard for the rest of the solar system and for applications on earth. As for the capital goods, That's as much about learning about orbital industry as it is about actually building stuff, but I bet there are industrial uses of microgravity, and being able to occasionally skip a trip through the atmosphere for various things would certainly be handy. And, I think it would have good synergy with the other two suggested options.

 

[Simon_Jester]

We get six modules for those two? Okay, nice! Hopefully that'll apply to our next industrial station too then.

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I don't think our second-generation options are going to involve building megaproject stations quite the same way. I could be wrong, but I'm expecting that we'll see a design project for a second generation habitat of some kind, followed by the option to build it.

I'm envisioning this as a 'Go in heavy on orbital infrastructure' path. Which I think would have made a good springboard for the rest of the solar system and for applications on earth. As for the capital goods, That's as much about learning about orbital industry as it is about actually building stuff, but I bet there are industrial uses of microgravity, and being able to occasionally skip a trip through the atmosphere for various things would certainly be handy. And, I think it would have good synergy with the other two suggested options.

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I mean, I'm just not seeing why this is objectively better in the long run than, say, having vast fleets of space freighters to do the Earth-Moon run efficiently and having the ability to rapidly turn out gravitic-drive warships for the attack on Jupiter.

It's all very well to build stuff in orbit, but you need to be able to move around, too.

 

[Vehrec]

Extremely tentative draft outline of a 2063Q3 plan:

1080/1215 R budget
6/6 Free dice
Pessimistic assumptions about project costs, unaffected by U-Series Alloy Foundries Phase 4

[] Draft Plan Attempting to 2063Q3
-[] Infrastructure (5/5 Dice, +27 bonus, 65 R)
--[] Postwar Housing Refits (Phase 1+2) 114/340 (4 dice, 40 R) (Phase 1, __% chance Phase 2
--[] Suborbital Shuttle Service (Phase 2) 159/225 (1 die, 25 R) (__% chance)
-[] Heavy Industry (5/5 Dice + 1 Free Dice, +34 bonus, 140 R)
--[] 2nd Gen. CC Fusion Plants (Phase 2) 75/310 (2 dice, 40 R) (__% chance)
--[] Second Generation Repulsorplate Factories 0/595 (4 dice, 100 R) (4/7 median)
-[] Light Industry (4/4 Dice, +29 bonus, 80 R)
--[] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 5) 883/1120 (4 dice, 80 R) (__% chance)
--[] Might be open to putting a die on Adaptive Clothing Development
--[] If the odds on Reyjavik look good enough.
-[] Agriculture (6/6 dice, +29 bonus, 45 R)
--[] Dairy Ranches (Phase 3) 98/185 (1 die, 20 R) (__% chance)
--[] Reforestation Campaign Preparations (Phase 1) 252/835 (5 dice, 25 R) (5/7.5 median)

65+140+80+45
270+230+105+145

-[] Tiberium (7/7 dice + 2 Free dice, +39 bonus, 270 R)
--[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (BZ-4 Southeast Arabia) 52/85 (1 die, 30 R) (100% chance)
--[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (BZ-9 East Australia) 59/85 (1 die, 30 R) (100% chance)
--[] Red Zone Border Offensives (Stage 5) 158/215 (1 die, 25 R) (100% chance)
--[] Deep Red Zone Tiberium Glacier Mining (Stage 4) 0/215 (3 dice, 90 R) (91% chance)
--[] Improved Hewlett Gardener Refits (Phase 2) 65/230 (2 dice, 70 R) (75% chance)
--[] Coordinated Abatement Programs (Phase 1) 82/200 (1 die, 25 R) (1/2 median)

-[] Orbital (7/7 Dice + 3 Free die + EREWHON!!!, +34 bonus, 230 R)
--[] GDSS Columbia (Phase 5) 643/1045 (3 dice, 60 R) (__% chance)
--[] GDSS Shala (Phase 4) 486/520 (4 dice, 80 R) (Phase 4, _/__ median to Phase 5)
--[] Hospital Bay 0/325 (2+E dice, 60 R) (??% chance)
--[] Life Support Processor Development 0/80 (1 die, 30 R) (75% chance)

-[] Services (4/4 Dice + AA Die, +35 bonus, 105 R)
--[] University Program Updates 137/255 (2 dice, 30 R) (__% chance)
--[] Autodoc Systems Development 103/120 (AA die, 30 R) (99% chance)
--[] Cosmetic Biosculpting 0/360 (1 die, 30 R) (1/4 median)
--[] Library Enhancement Programs 0/185 (1 die, 15 R) (1/2 median)

-[] Military (7/7 Dice + AA Die, +31 bonus, 145 R)
--[] Strategic Area Defense Networks (Phase 4) 125/??? (4 dice, 80 R) (??? results)
--[] Stealth Disruptor Deployment 0/180 (2+AA dice, 45 R) (49% chance)
--[] MRAP Factory 0/300 (1 die, 20 R) (1/3.5 median)

-[] Bureaucracy (4/4 Dice, +29 bonus, -90 RpT)
--[] Administrative Assistance: Stealth Disruptors
--[] Administrative Assistance: Audodoc Systems Development

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Hmmm, let me do a bit of editing on your chances here. Projected savings, etc. All hand-calced with the help of Anydice.

[] Draft Plan Attempting to 2063Q3
-[] Infrastructure (5/5 Dice, +27 bonus, 65 R)
--[] Postwar Housing Refits (Phase 1+2) 114/320 (4 dice, 40 R) (Phase 1, 98% chance Phase 2
--[] Suborbital Shuttle Service (Phase 2) 159/225 (1 die, 25 R) (77% chance)
-[] Heavy Industry (5/5 Dice + 1 Free Dice, +34 bonus, 140 R)
--[] 2nd Gen. CC Fusion Plants (Phase 2) 263/310 (2 dice, 40 R) (100% chance)
--[] Second Generation Repulsorplate Factories 0/560 (4 dice, 100 R) (4/7 median)
-[] Light Industry (4/4 Dice, +29 bonus, 80 R)
--[] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 5) 883/1110 (4 dice, 80 R) (96% chance)
--[] Maybe think about putting a die on Adaptive Clothing Development
--[] Three dice on Reyjavik looks like 70%.
-[] Agriculture (6/6 dice, +29 bonus, 45 R)
--[] Dairy Ranches (Phase 3) 98/185 (1 die, 20 R) (58% chance)
--[] Reforestation Campaign Preparations (Phase 1) 252/805 (5 dice, 25 R) (5/7.5 median)
-[] Tiberium (7/7 dice + 2 Free dice, +39 bonus, 270 R)
--[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (BZ-4 Southeast Arabia) 52/85 (1 die, 30 R) (100% chance)
--[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (BZ-9 East Australia) 59/85 (1 die, 30 R) (100% chance)
--[] Red Zone Border Offensives (Stage 5) 158/210 (1 die, 25 R) (100% chance)
--[] Deep Red Zone Tiberium Glacier Mining (Stage 4) 0/200 (3 dice, 90 R) (95% chance)
--[] Improved Hewlett Gardener Refits (Phase 2) 65/225 (2 dice, 70 R) (79% chance)
--[] Coordinated Abatement Programs (Phase 1) 82/200 (1 die, 25 R) (1/2 median)

-[] Orbital (7/7 Dice + 3 Free die + EREWHON!!!, +34 bonus, 230 R)
--[] GDSS Columbia (Phase 5) 643/1025 (3 dice, 60 R) (2% chance)
--[] GDSS Shala (Phase 4) 486/520 (4 dice, 80 R) (Phase 4, Many/Lots median to Phase 5)
--[] Hospital Bay 0/315 (2+E dice, 60 R) (8% chance)
--[] Life Support Processor Development 0/80 (1 die, 30 R) (75% chance)

-[] Services (4/4 Dice + AA Die, +35 bonus, 105 R)
--[] University Program Updates 137/250 (2 dice, 30 R) (99% chance)
--[] Autodoc Systems Development 103/120 (AA die, 30 R) (99% chance)
--[] Cosmetic Biosculpting 0/360 (1 die, 30 R) (1/4 median)
--[] Library Enhancement Programs 0/180 (1 die, 15 R) (1/2 median)

-[] Military (7/7 Dice + AA Die, +31 bonus, 145 R)
--[] Strategic Area Defense Networks (Phase 4) 125/??? (4 dice, 80 R) (??? results)
--[] Stealth Disruptor Deployment 0/180 (2+AA dice, 45 R) (82% chance)
--[] MRAP Factory 0/285 (1 die, 20 R) (1/3.5 median)

 

[Simon_Jester]

@Vehrec
Thanks. What were you basing cost reductions on, again? As in, what governs your predictions about how costs will be reduced next turn?

 

[Ithillid]

You got six rather than three, mostly because each individual bay is less fundamentally impactful. The difference between building low, medium, and high density housing bays is significantly less than building step one of the Utopia Planita fleetyards or most of the other combinations.

 

[Simon_Jester]

You got six rather than three, mostly because each individual bay is less fundamentally impactful. The difference between building low, medium, and high density housing bays is significantly less than building step one of the Utopia Planita fleetyards or most of the other combinations.

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I mean, I'd kind of gotten the vibe that the balance of density choices we make in the housing bays will heavily color the living conditions (and feasible population densities) on future stations modeled loosely after Columbia in its prototype role.

That is, if we build a Columbia with three Low Density bays, we're setting our future habitat stations up to be basically Elysium or as close as we can manage, with all that implies about "not many people can live up here" and "wow it's nice up here."

Whereas if we build out with three Very High Density bays, we're building Space Kowloon Walled City or as close to it as we dare to manage given the constraints of making sure everyone has air to breathe and so on.

I get what you're saying, in other words, but it's interesting to hear you say it.

 

[Angle]

I mean, I'm just not seeing why this is objectively better in the long run than, say, having vast fleets of space freighters to do the Earth-Moon run efficiently and having the ability to rapidly turn out gravitic-drive warships for the attack on Jupiter.

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This would make that easier, while also making it easier to build orbital habitat stations and orbital military stations and stations to support the earth moon run and all that. The big alternative would be to mostly skip near earth space and go straight to the moon and beyond - but, given that we've already built three additional stations (Counting Philadelphia), we're about halfway to an orbital heavy route already IMO. Not that it matters now, the stations and their bays are already built. And I am curious to see what all we unlock from finishing Enterprise...

 

[Vehrec]

@Vehrec
Thanks. What were you basing cost reductions on, again? As in, what governs your predictions about how costs will be reduced next turn?

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past reductions, automatic adjustment tool someone on Discord made, and guesswork.

 

[Oleg-14191]

So… any thoughts on pushing to Alloys capstone?

And Abatement reduction is concerning (somewhat), mostly in YZ due to lack of options (which is due to politics). Vein Mining is good, but it's pricey.

 

[Simon_Jester]

This would make that easier, while also making it easier to build orbital habitat stations and orbital military stations and stations to support the earth moon run and all that.

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Okay, but I'm not sure this is better than, for example, being able to build big moon colonies and easily shuttle the resources back to Earth-orbit stations. The moon mines are kind of important if we want to build big in space.

The big alternative would be to mostly skip near earth space and go straight to the moon and beyond - but, given that we've already built three additional stations (Counting Philadelphia), we're about halfway to an orbital heavy route already IMO.

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Those stations are a prerequisite under any space colonization path. We needed them anyway, and they're tiny compared to the shape of what is to come. I mean, Columbia is going to cap out as a space town of about 5000-10000 people, realistically! That is nowhere near the sheer scale of what we're planning. Those stations are only impressive investments to us because of how difficult it was to put them up, not because they represent "path dependency."

The four Crown Jewel stations were what we'd have to do anyway, the prerequisite, and just the act of building them doesn't automatically mean that synergy is pulling us away from needing actual spaceships.

So… any thoughts on pushing to Alloys capstone?

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It's that or hoverplates and personally i favor hoverplates next.

 

[Angle]

The four Crown Jewel stations were what we'd have to do anyway, the prerequisite, and just the act of building them doesn't automatically mean that synergy is pulling us away from needing actual spaceships.

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Again, I don't think we don't need the spaceships, I just think it would have been useful to develop our orbital infrastructure first, especially as that orbital infrastructure would then make it easier to build spaceships.

It's that or hoverplates and personally i favor hoverplates next.

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I'd also like to go for some more of Bergen, Isolinear, or Nuuk, if we can manage it. All three of those look really useful. Though there's an argument for going straight for North Boston, too. :/

 

[Oleg-14191]

It's that or hoverplates and personally i favor hoverplates next.

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But, but… We need more money!!! - Parliament, possibly.

IC for Seo, though.

I'd also like to go for some more of Bergen, Isolinear, or Nuuk

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Bergen is in LCI, we should get that operational by the end of 2065. *Knocks on wood*.

Isolinear… with any luck we might get 2 phases.

Nuuk is better off as next 4YP goal.

 

[MrRageQuit]

It's that or hoverplates and personally i favor hoverplates next.

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Not me. We don't have the STUs in the budget currently and I want to focus the dice on stuff that really matters right now. Preferably at least doing the 5th phase to complete our discount acquisition. And the 6th if the Tib mining efficiency gives us double-digit boosts. Then we can turn our attention to North Boston.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Again, I don't think we don't need the spaceships, I just think it would have been useful to develop our orbital infrastructure first, especially as that orbital infrastructure would then make it easier to build spaceships.

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Well, as I see it, the main reason to have orbital infrastructure in the first place is to build future stations and ships... which is what we did.

It'd be nice to have a giant assembly line churning out orbital satellites, but ultimately that doesn't do nearly as much to help us build a sustainable space presence as being able to get more moon mines and lunar bases and big space torus type habitats going.

I'd also like to go for some more of Bergen, Isolinear, or Nuuk, if we can manage it. All three of those look really useful. Though there's an argument for going straight for North Boston, too. :/

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Well, you were asking about what to do with STU's. One way or the other, the limits of our STU budget will force us to stop spending so heavily on STU-heavy industrial options soon. At that point we might take a short detour into Aberdeen, but North Boston will need to be our main focus if we're going to finish the project as we promised.

Bergen is a totally separate issue because it doesn't compete for dice with any of the other things except Reykjavik, which we'll have finished in a turn or two anyway.

Not me. We don't have the STUs in the budget currently and I want to focus the dice on stuff that really matters right now. Preferably at least doing the 5th phase to complete our discount acquisition.

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I'm not at all sure that getting another 5% discount on Progress costs for most projects is more important than the broader effects of hoverplate distribution. That's also going to have an impact on industrial and tiberium applications (remember hover harvesters?).

And the 6th if the Tib mining efficiency gives us double-digit boosts.

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That's a sizeable 'if.'

Then we can turn our attention to North Boston.

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The repulsorplates are key to a lot of options. I'm not sure we should be ignoring them entirely until 2066 or later.

 

[Oleg-14191]

Can we do both? Both sounds good.

We should get more STU from mining, but we (Likely) do only Boston on top.

 

[Angle]

Well, as I see it, the main reason to have orbital infrastructure in the first place is to build future stations and ships... which is what we did.

It'd be nice to have a giant assembly line churning out orbital satellites, but ultimately that doesn't do nearly as much to help us build a sustainable space presence as being able to get more moon mines and lunar bases and big space torus type habitats going.

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But it would help with the moon mines and the lunar bases...

And, if you want more ideas for things to build in, or near, earth orbit, some space based solar power could come in handy - not as a mainstay of our power grid, but as a reasonable source of large quantities of flexible power. Need to power something in a remote place with out setting up a dedicated plant? Use a receiver station. Emergency took out the local power grid? Set up an emergency receiver station. Big mobile thing you want to beam power to? Mobile receiver station. Need extra power to cover a spike in demand for some reason for a few months? Receiver station. Might even be useful for powering other things in orbit. Or, if that doesn't do it for you, a series of stopover satellites for our shuttle network when they want to make big, long distance deliveries, maybe. Or, we could set up some venusian tib recycling and recycle the less useful parts of lunar dust into STU's in some stations in the lunar lagrange points, maybe. Point is, I'm sure theres lots of useful stuff to do in orbit, if we're going in big on space.

Well, you were asking about what to do with STU's. One way or the other, the limits of our STU budget will force us to stop spending so heavily on STU-heavy industrial options soon. At that point we might take a short detour into Aberdeen, but North Boston will need to be our main focus if we're going to finish the project as we promised.

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No? Pretty sure that was someone else. I have no problems imagining things to do with STU's. XD

 

[Simon_Jester]

Can we do both? Both sounds good.

We should get more STU from mining, but we (Likely) do only Boston on top.

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I'm pretty sure that we'll hit a point where we have no surplus until we do more mining.

But it would help with the moon mines and the lunar bases...

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Yes, but so would the shipyards.

I feel like you're proposing a solution and looking for problems it can solve, instead of the other way around. We have mass-produced fusion reactors; we could use space-based solar power but it's far from the only thing we could use, and you're proposing it as a solution in edge cases where GDI already has existing solutions that, while perhaps not optimal, work.

The fundamental bottleneck in our space infrastructure is "capacity to go places." We need to be able to build large space stations efficiently, we need to be able to move bulk material quickly back and forth to the moon and the planets. Once we have that, all else can and will follow. Without that capacity, we can't efficiently build up millions of tons of orbital infrastructure no matter how many satellite factories we have, because we're having to haul all our building materials up the Earth's gravity well.

That's why we need the shipyards. To make interplanetary travel feasible for something besides hand-built prototype ships, and to make the moon just another place we can go to get things from, taking advantage of its low gravity to mine the materials to build what we need in space.

 

[Oleg-14191]

I'm pretty sure that we'll hit a point where we have no surplus until we do more mining.

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If we get there, we can throw dice at Boston until STU Production ramps up.

But I hear you, we need to increase mining.
Let's see:

• RZ Border offensive 5 finished, should unlock Deep Glacier 5 - that's ~ +1 STU;
• RZ Border offensive 6 is 1 Die from completion, should unlock Deep Glacier 6 - that's another ~ +1 STU.

That should be Enough for Repulsorplates and Alloys 5.

Alloys 6 needs another +1 STU and that's more troublesome since we'll exhaust the easiest ways to increase production.

-[] Tiberium (7/7 dice + 2 Free dice, +39 bonus, 270 R)
--[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (BZ-4 Southeast Arabia) 52/85 (1 die, 30 R) (100% chance)
--[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (BZ-9 East Australia) 59/85 (1 die, 30 R) (100% chance)
--[] Red Zone Border Offensives (Stage 5) 158/215 (1 die, 25 R) (100% chance)
--[] Deep Red Zone Tiberium Glacier Mining (Stage 4) 0/215 (3 dice, 90 R) (91% chance)
--[] Improved Hewlett Gardener Refits (Phase 2) 65/230 (2 dice, 70 R) (75% chance)
--[] Coordinated Abatement Programs (Phase 1) 82/200 (1 die, 25 R) (1/2 median)

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Like the plan overall, but maybe cut refits and put 5 Dice on Deep Glaciers? RZ Border offensive 6 is 1 Die from completion, should unlock Deep Glacier 6, so we shouldn't worry about overshooting.

 

[Simon_Jester]

\
Like the plan overall, but maybe cut refits and put 5 Dice on Deep Glaciers? RZ Border offensive 6 is 1 Die from completion, should unlock Deep Glacier 6, so we shouldn't worry about overshooting.

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I'm trying not to overdo the number of deep Red Zone operations we initiate in any one turn, because strain on ZOCOM is a serious concern.

 

[Oleg-14191]

I keep forgetting these small details, damn it!!