Re: Chicago, I actually say we should finish it ASAP. Yeah just tossing 1 HI die with no Infra accompaniment introduces one turn of slight inefficiencies, but an extra 6 capital goods multiple turns earlier than we'd otherwise get them are more than worth inefficiencies on 1 HI die. I don't think we'll have the Infra dice freed up to start really cranking away at Chicago again for at least 2062 and probably into 2063. Get those cap goods ticking into our stockpile, if we're THIS close to finishing a solidly productive industrial project we should just tap it over the line and get the benefits instead of stalling for a year+.

This is fair. I'm considering switching Advanced Alloys with Chicago. I'd swap out a die from Personal EVs but I only have 5 spare R. I could do some rejigging elsewhere and I might if a Services project comes up that is worth not putting a die on Hospitals.
 
Two things I will note here: we are now at the point where we get a 94% success chance on Security Reviews with 1 die, which I think is probably sufficient, and secondly we will be wanting to do recruitment.

I didn't put dice amounts or percentages for a reason. I didn't put a note saying I was reserving one or two dice for new bureau projects because I forgot to, but yes, I fully intend to take recruitment next turn.
 
I'd say that orbital cleanup is fine for Erewhon, it's not counting beans it's piloting a swarm of laser sweepers through the infinite vastness of space or whatever.

Re: Chicago, I actually say we should finish it ASAP. Yeah just tossing 1 HI die with no Infra accompaniment introduces one turn of slight inefficiencies, but an extra 6 capital goods multiple turns earlier than we'd otherwise get them are more than worth inefficiencies on 1 HI die. I don't think we'll have the Infra dice freed up to start really cranking away at Chicago again for at least 2062 and probably into 2063. Get those cap goods ticking into our stockpile, if we're THIS close to finishing a solidly productive industrial project we should just tap it over the line and get the benefits instead of stalling for a year+.
Funny thing is, Erewhorn has a 95% chance to finish Chicago Phase 4 off. (At 529/550, it's only 6 progress off an omake finish.) If we have enough R to squeeze doing that in, we could effectively get an extra Heavy Industries die that way.
 
Funny thing is, Erewhorn has a 95% chance to finish Chicago Phase 4 off. (At 529/550, it's only 6 progress off an omake finish.) If we have enough R to squeeze doing that in, we could effectively get an extra Heavy Industries die that way.
inb4 we roll a nat 100 on that, Erewhon redecorates all the housing in Chicago - it's a masterpiece of art, but nobody wants to live there because of all the trompe l'oeil paintings making them think they're living in non-Euclidean spaces. :p
 
There is no more efficient way to waste a person's time than by telling them things one is certain must be true, but that are factually incorrect. If one is going to participate in conversations, paying attention to facts matters.

The text literally does not say the Lines "fell apart" because the Red Zones expanded. The current generation of the Lines was built not that long ago, when the Red Zones were roughly the same size they are now. They have not collapsed or disappeared; they are still providing the same mitigation levels they always have. I don't know what you're talking about here.

No Simon I'm saying I'd rather have the Rail Network Construction Campaign Phase 5 done than be proven correct that we need it when we get to the Australian Border Offensives. As in I'm not willing to gamble on needing to do the Rail Network Construction Campaigns in 2063 to be able to complete the Border Offensives plan goal.

I'm talking about the fact that between our gains and the slow but still somewhat stalled expansion of the Red Zones our previous work on the Red Zone Containment Lines is no longer enough to contain the Red Zones and as such we have been set back a few steps in that Action chain while being able to go much further for less now that our connections to the Red Zones are more direct.
 
No Simon I'm saying I'd rather have the Rail Network Construction Campaign Phase 5 done than be proven correct that we need it when we get to the Australian Border Offensives. As in I'm not willing to gamble on needing to do the Rail Network Construction Campaigns in 2063 to be able to complete the Border Offensives plan goal.

I'm talking about the fact that between our gains and the slow but still somewhat stalled expansion of the Red Zones our previous work on the Red Zone Containment Lines is no longer enough to contain the Red Zones and as such we have been set back a few steps in that Action chain while being able to go much further for less now that our connections to the Red Zones are more direct.
We don't need it. It would probably help insofar as it would mean +Logistics, but we are not cripplingly dependent on having railways go everywhere that we want to set up operations.
Also, you're misreading the whole situation for Red Zone Containment Lines. We had reached the point where GDI had run out of area we could operate freely to work on said Containment Lines. That meant that the phases we were seeing were going back to reinforce existing operations. Now that GDI has taken more territory, we have more Red Zone border to work on so we can set up Containment Lines in areas we have no operations, rather than reinforcing existing operations.

Likewise, Red Zones have been shrinking, not growing. This past quarter meant that over the past year, they only shrank by about .5% of the Earth's land area.
 
I mean... maybe?

Like, I can't imagine we'll get absolutely no resistance but the Bannerjees efforts in the last dustup were basically pro forma.

If we take Karachi, which is explicitly abandoned and then just do the GDI beeline straight for the BZ we'll certainly get the locals but there's a chance, not sure how big but a chance, the main part of India leaves us the hell alone.
I hope so, but I really do want to make sure the military is prepared. By the time we do Karachi, Nod will at least have begun to recuperate from its losses in the Regency War, so I want to make sure we're ready for anything that pops up- with SADN and the first wave of power armor factories in place, and with at least Phase 1 of the Orca/Hammerhead wingman drones deployed so that our escort carriers are working at full capacity. I'd love to squeeze in the naval laser refits but that may be a bridge too far.

Ideally I'd want to get the Seattle shipyard in 2062Q2 or 'Q3 in hopes of having an extra tranche of twenty frigates come out in time to impact the naval situation for Karachi, but that, too, may just not fit in with everything else.

As for Erewhon... Well, let's just say that while Orbital Cleanup may not be the most exciting option, it shouldn't be quite as bad as counting beans. One thing to remember is that you usually don't have to pick the "perfect" choice every turn for something like that, just to avoid the "worst" choices and seek out a mix of "OK" and "good" options.

Re: Chicago, I actually say we should finish it ASAP. Yeah just tossing 1 HI die with no Infra accompaniment introduces one turn of slight inefficiencies, but an extra 6 capital goods multiple turns earlier than we'd otherwise get them are more than worth inefficiencies on 1 HI die. I don't think we'll have the Infra dice freed up to start really cranking away at Chicago again for at least 2062 and probably into 2063. Get those cap goods ticking into our stockpile, if we're THIS close to finishing a solidly productive industrial project we should just tap it over the line and get the benefits instead of stalling for a year+.
[grunts]

You have a point.

Okay, my idea of bending to that without badly compromising things is to put one Heavy Industry die and 2-3 Infrastructure dice on the project in 2062Q2. So I'll be acting with that intention in mind, even though I'm not planning to put Chicago in my 2062Q1 plan.
 
Huh. You know, I think I anthropomorphized just hard enough that if Erewhon genuinely prefers 'it' pronouns, I'd forgotten.

[blinks, brain-fuzzed]

he get to enjoy counting trash instead
I am pretty sure Erewhon would have enjoyed the bean-counting job more if it had involved getting to zap the beans repeatedly with laser cannons after they had been counted. :p
 
The task isn't simply to zap fragments to destabilise their orbit. It is also to identify harvestable scraps and nudge them into collection orbits.
It is an insanely complicated task that I expect Erewhon will be challenged by.
Travelling salesman problem with moving targets and lasers.
 
If we really want to defang the IF we'd better damn well push consumer goods hard so that IF can't agitate about lack of quality of life.
MRASP is something of an odd duck. It's both a technology and a platform. It's certainly going to have teething issues, as that is the nature of Talon projects, and to work out those issues it needs time.

However, Talons don't put together a platform just to test once piece of equipment or technology, at least not here. They take a grabbag of techs they've been working on, then they put them together and give it things to shoot at. I feel that would be the case here.

I'm not saying hold off on MRASP til the last moment. Just develop two or three other technologies they're working with and then go for the MRASP. Sure, it'll have more teething troubles, but that's the point of the Talons. They get the overengineered but finicky prototypes so everyone else gets the reliable version.

Right now all we have for the MRASP is its own expanded mobile basing abilities and the Sparkle Shields with Firestorm Barrier fun times. Get like, the Buckler Shield or Heavy Laser or Ground Drone, just so more testing can get done at once. Heck, just one of them would make me feel better. Though on second thought, probably not the Ground Drone, that's also a weird Technology/Platform as I recon it.

If time is a concern, at least go for the Heavy Combat Laser first. It's cheap-ish at 20R, will finish with one die barring a crit fail, and is something the Talons are notably interested in. Also a plan goal.
MRASP isn't a platform IMO, well. Its not a platform that's going to have other tech installed into it. MRASP is more or less a single minded project to miniaturize and stuff the capability of a base into a mobile platform. Plus MRAsP is the first true prototype of this kind of thing. Its not going to benefit from other Talons tech unless those are industrial based.

Talons aren't going to even think about shoving weapons into the prototype since it'll be hard enough as it is to stuff all the stuff they want to put into a mobile platform as it is.

And MRASP is not going to be deployed anywhere near the frontlines. Its strictly a precursor/pathfinder prototype to the tech tree its opening up.
 
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If we really want to defang the IF we'd better damn well push consumer goods hard so that IF can't agitate about lack of quality of life.
Given that the current set of Plan commitments has only a moderate amount for us to do in Light Industry (normally an excellent source of Consoom), mandates only one other project in Agriculture (our second-best source of Consoom), and has negligible requirements in Services (our third-best source of Consoom), I think it's safe to say that we've got this.
 
Alright, based on input, have a draft plan for upping our orbitals through the power of AEVA.

[] Draft Plan First Quarter Blues Mk II (Orbital AEVA Remix)
-[] Infrastructure (5/5 Dice, +36 bonus, 50 R)
--[] Blue Zone Apartments (Phase 9+10) 82/320 (2 dice * 10 R = 20R)
--[] Communal Housing Experiments (2 dice * 10 R = 20R)
--[] Green Architecture Risk Assessment and Testing 0/90 (1 die * 10 R = 10R)
-[] Heavy Industry (4/4 Dice, +33 bonus, 75 R)
--[] Advanced Alloys Development 56/120 (1 die * 15 R = 15R)
--[] Improved Continuous Cycle Fusion Development 0/120 (2 dice * 20R = 40R)
--[] Microfusion Cell Development 0/60 (1 die * 20R = 20R)
-[] Light Industry (3/4 Dice, +28 bonus, 30 R)
--[] Isolinear Peripherals Development (0/160) (3 dice * 10R = 30R)
--[] See if Ithillid gives us another 10RpD project
-[] Agriculture (4/4 Dice, +28 bonus, 30 R)
--[] Wadmalaw Kudzu Plantations (Phase 3) (56/450) (3 dice * 10R = 30R)
--[] Security Review
-[] Tiberium (7 Dice + 7 Free Dice, +43 bonus, 345 R)
--[] Tiberium Vein Mines (Stage 2) (5/195) (5 dice * 20R = 100R)
--[] Red Zone Border Offensives (Stage 2) (101/250) (5 dice * 25R = 125R)
--[] Deep Red Zone Tiberium Glacier Mining (Stage 1) (0/250) (4 dice * 30R = 120R)
-[] Orbital (6/6 dice, +30 bonus, 90 R)
--[] Station Bay 248/400 (2 dice * 20 R = 40R)
--[] Orbital Cleanup (Stage 11+12) 32/170 (1 dice * 10R = 10R)
--[] Leopard II Factory (152/400) (2 dice * 20 R = 40R) (2/3.5 median)
--[] 1 dice locked for Orbital AEVA
-[] Services (5/5 Dice, +31 bonus, 80 R)
--[] Specialist Isolinear Programming Development (0/120) (2 dice * 10R = 20R)
--[ ] Advanced Electronic Video Assistant Deployment
---[ ] Orbital (0/200) (3 dice * 20R = 60R)
-[] Military (8/8 dice, +30 bonus, 95 R)
--[] GD-3 Rifle Development (0/30) (1 die * 10R = 10R)
--[] Ground Forces Zone Armor (Set 1)
---[] New Sevastopol (0/180) (2 dice * 20R = 40R)
--[ ] Ferro Aluminum Armor Refits (0/350) (3 dice * 5R = 15R)
--[ ] Buckler Shield Development (0/100) (1 dice * 20R = 20R)
--[ ] Infantry Recon Support Drone Development (0/40)(1 dice * 10R = 10R)
-[] Bureaucracy (4 Dice, +28 bonus)
--[] Recruitment (3 dice+Erewhon)
--[] Security Review (1 dice)
---[] Agriculture

The usual reminder that everything is subject to change until we get the update applies :) .
 
I recently ran numbers for the 40 RZ mitigation target and came to the conclusion that it was better for us to use MARVs and Inhibitors to reach it then RZ harvesting and Glacier Mines. I mentioned in that analysis that I thought it reasonable that we could use Vein Mines to make up the remainder of our income, as while the Glacier Mines would cover most of it, they would cost a significant amount of Logistics. This is an extension of that analysis to put numbers on if we could make the Income Goal with Vein Mines or if it would be better to use the Glaciers.

Baseline:
I am assuming we are completing the following projects in both scenarios: Border Offensives, Deep Glacier Mines, and RZ Containment.
-Red Zone Border Offensives Phase 2-5: 101/800 Progress ~8 Dice median
--Provides 8 Energy
--Provides 12 RZ Mitigation
--Provides ~100 RpT

-Deep Red Zone Glacier Mining Phase 1-5: 0/1275 Progress ~14 Dice median
--Provides 5 Energy
--Provides 5 RZ Mitigation
--Provides ~325 RpT
--Requires 15 Logistics

-Red Zone Containment Lines Stage 6-8: 54/675 Progress ~7 Dice median
--Provides 3 Energy
--Provides 9 RZ Mitigation
--Provides ~45 RpT

-Total Baseline:
--Provides 16 Energy
--Provides 26 RZ Mitigation
--Provides ~470 RpT

Therefore we need 14 additional RZ Mitigation and 730 RpT

RZ Harvesting and Glacier Mines:
-Red Zone Harvesting Stage 12-22: 29/1650 Progress ~17 Dice median
--Provides 11 Energy
--Provides 11 Mitigation
--Provides ~192.5 RpT

-Red Zone Glacier Mines Stage 13-22: 38/2050 Progress ~22 Dice median
--Provides 10 Energy
--Provides 10 Mitigation
--Provides ~550 RpT
--Requires 50 Logistics

We currently have 27 Logistics, can expect to lose 20 of that from Chicago, Processing Plants, and Deep Glaciers and gain 24 from Karachi and Personal EVs therefore we start with 31 Logistics and need 19 to, at minimum, have 0 net Logistics. We likely want a buffer of at least 10 to protect from NOD raiding and therefore need to produce 29 Logistics with this option. This does not incorporate other Logistics costing projects like Apartments (or the like), Bergen, or Aquaponics which would raise the cost.

-Suborbital Shuttle Service Phase 2-3: 22/450 Progress ~5 Dice median
--Provides 13 Logistics

-Urban Metros Phase 4: 0/150 Progress ~2 Dice median
--Requires 2 Energy
--Provides 3 Logistics

-Rail network Construction Campaigns Phase 5-8: 39/1300 Progress ~15 Dice median
--Provides 14 Logistics
--Note that it appears that Phases 7 and beyond only produce 3 Logistics

-Total With RZ Harvesting and Glacier Mines
--Requires ~61 Dice
--Requires 20 Logistics
--Provides 21 RZ Mitigation
--Provides 19 Energy
--Provides ~742.5 RpT

MARVs, Inhibitors, and Vein Mines:
To meet the RZ Mitigation Goal we need:
-RZ MARV Hub x4: 0/1340 Progress ~14 Dice median
--Provides 4 Energy
--Provides 12 Mitigation
--Provides 100 RpT
--Note we only technically need one additional MARV Hub in RZ 1 to unlock the Inhibitor there so if another RZ Mitigation could be scrounged up we could remove one of the MARV Hubs.

-RZ Inhibitor x2: 0/240 Progress ~3 Dice median
--Provides 4 Mitigation

-Tiberium Vein Mines Phase 2-21: 5/3900 Progress ~42 Dice median
--Requires 20 Capital Goods
--Provides 650 RpT
--Provides 20 YZ Mitigation
--Note: We are currently scheduled to produce a net of 48 Capital Goods for the Plan, I am comfortable using that surplus here since we already are producing it.
--Note: I think there was something about Vein Mines getting cheeper like the Lunar Mines do, so that cost may change.

Total with MARVs, Inhibitors, and Vein Mines:
--Requires ~59 Dice median
--Requires 20 Capital Goods
--Provides 4 Energy
--Provides 16 RZ Mitigation
--Provides 20 YZ Mitigation
--Provides 750 RpT

Direct Comparison:
RZ Harvesting and Glacier MinesMARVs, Inhibitors, and Vein Mines
Dice Cost61 Dice59 Dice
Income742.5 RpT750 RpT
RZ Mitigation21 RZ Mitigation16 RZ Mitigation
YZ Mitigation20 YZ Mitigation
Energy19 Energy4 Energy
Logistics-20 Logistics
Capital Goods-20 Capital Goods

Therefore it very much seems the case that the MARVs, Inhibitors, and Vein Mines option would still cost less dice the RZ Harvesting and Glacier Mines one.
 
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Alright, based on input, have a draft plan for upping our orbitals through the power of AEVA.

-[] Heavy Industry (4/4 Dice, +33 bonus, 75 R)
--[] Advanced Alloys Development 56/120 (1 die * 15 R = 15R)
--[] Improved Continuous Cycle Fusion Development 0/120 (2 dice * 20R = 40R)
--[] Microfusion Cell Development 0/60 (1 die * 20R = 20R)


-[] Tiberium (7 Dice + 7 Free Dice, +43 bonus, 345 R)
--[] Tiberium Vein Mines (Stage 2) (5/195) (5 dice * 20R = 100R)
--[] Red Zone Border Offensives (Stage 2) (101/250) (5 dice * 25R = 125R)
--[] Deep Red Zone Tiberium Glacier Mining (Stage 1) (0/250) (4 dice * 30R = 120R)

-[] Military (8/8 dice, +30 bonus, 95 R)
--[] GD-3 Rifle Development (0/30) (1 die * 10R = 10R)
--[] Ground Forces Zone Armor (Set 1)
---[] New Sevastopol (0/180) (2 dice * 20R = 40R)
--[ ] Ferro Aluminum Armor Refits (0/350) (3 dice * 5R = 15R)
--[ ] Buckler Shield Development (0/100) (1 dice * 20R = 20R)
--[ ] Infantry Recon Support Drone Development (0/40)(1 dice * 10R = 10R)
-[] Bureaucracy (4 Dice, +28 bonus)
--[] Recruitment (3 dice+Erewhon)
--[] Security Review (1 dice)
---[] Agriculture

The usual reminder that everything is subject to change until we get the update applies :) .
You've got me coming around on the merits of trying to do the Orbital AEVA project possibly, though I'm considering other possibilities and how to balance the dice invested in the station bay and the shuttle yard. Even in best-case scenarios, it's fairly unlikely that we complete both projects in 2062Q1; if we're accepting the loss of an Orbital die to boot up the AEVA, the best thing to do might be to balance the dice such that both projects get at least a minimal chance of completion, so that we can be assured of finishing both with only 1-2 dice each next turn in 2062Q2.

With that said, my standing difference from your approach is that I think you're overinvesting in expensive per-die Military and Heavy Industry projects. Improved Fusion is important but I question the urgency, and if it were me, at a minimum I'd swap Microfusion Cell and the New Sevastopol plant out to free up R for something else. Part of the advantage of this is that it lets me invest more heavily in Red Zone mining operations, which are I'm projecting to be a bit more cost-effective than their vein mining counterparts for now.

This is a legitimate reason to disagree with me, to be clear; I'm just discussing the differences of opinion. There are valid reasons to want to push at least Improved Fusion and New Sevastopol, after all, and valid reasons to want to balance our border offensive and vein mining modes of resource extraction.

MARVs, Inhibitors, and Vein Mines:
To meet the RZ Mitigation Goal we need:
-RZ MARV Hub x4: 0/1340 Progress ~14 Dice median
--Provides 4 Energy
--Provides 12 Mitigation
--Provides 100 RpT
--Note we only technically need one additional MARV Hub in RZ 1 to unlock the Inhibitor there so if another RZ Mitigation could be scrounged up we could remove one of the MARV Hubs.
It's also notable that if we time it right, we can do a big solid surge of overflow and build the RZ-3 hubs and the RZ-1S hub all in rapid succession, because with the right sequencing, each hub overflows to the next one as they are closer to each other than to any other competing hub.

Therefore it very much seems the case that the MARVs, Inhibitors, and Vein Mines option would still cost less dice the RZ Harvesting and Glacier Mines one.
This reminds me heavily of the analysis I did during back in 2058 about how we'd hit the RpT income increase target that time.

Notably, the main difference here in practice is that the MARV-inhibitor-vein approach distributes its dice expenditure differently. Aside from maybe 4-8 Military dice spent building Red Zone MARV hubs, virtually all that investment is in the Tiberium category itself, where it competes with very few other things we're trying to accomplish. We have a fair number of Military projects, don't get me wrong, but we're nowhere near the "oh god so many megaprojects how will we do them all" level we face in some categories.

By contrast, much of the investment for the Harvesting-glacier approach is in Infrastructure, building transportation projects that are then immediately "lapped up" by the demands of the glacier mines, leaving us with nothing but the capacity to go on building more glacier mines. And this is happening in a category that's already handling all our efforts to do Housing construction (which may take dozens and dozens of dice), and also about 1100 points of Chicago and about 2000 points of Karachi.

I favor the MARV-inhibitor-vein approach, though I wouldn't say no to a glacier mine or two if our Logistics is looking pretty good. For instance, finishing off Suborbital Shuttles at some point is just good sense, since we're leaving money on the table otherwise given how efficient it is... But once we have that extra +13 Logistics, we might well build one or two glacier mine pairings just because we can afford to. Balanced strategies are not automatically bad, y'know?
 
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We don't need it. It would probably help insofar as it would mean +Logistics, but we are not cripplingly dependent on having railways go everywhere that we want to set up operations.
Also, you're misreading the whole situation for Red Zone Containment Lines. We had reached the point where GDI had run out of area we could operate freely to work on said Containment Lines. That meant that the phases we were seeing were going back to reinforce existing operations. Now that GDI has taken more territory, we have more Red Zone border to work on so we can set up Containment Lines in areas we have no operations, rather than reinforcing existing operations.

Likewise, Red Zones have been shrinking, not growing. This past quarter meant that over the past year, they only shrank by about .5% of the Earth's land area.

Which is why I said stalled instead of shrinking. We are not to the point where the Red Zones are consistently shrinking, but we are keeping them ,for the most part, from growing.

As for the Railways Construction? I've said everything I had to say. Railways are the main part of our Logistics Infrastructure on the ground and no amount of shuttles is going to change that. And remember:

So, since this discussion has happened several times.

1. Not everything is in the numbers. This is intentional. Not everything can be summed up into a set of +s and -s or as points on a scale. Among those is the military. Military performance is not just my number bigger than yours, but a delicate interplay of multiple fields and the tactical and operational doctrines of the forces. I am not going to turn that into (Military Need +)

2. The narrative is important. Read the updates, because it is not just fluff text. There are warnings, there are potentials, I am trying to weave multiple stories that matter through the text.

3. The numbers lie. They are not perfect, and you do not have a god's eye view. They are your best estimate of what the overall situation is, and how well your current abilities match up to needs. They are generally pretty good, but are not perfectly reliable indicators of anything.

+Logistics in and of itself is not enough. We will need specific Logistics projects for specific actions.
 
You've got me coming around on the merits of trying to do the Orbital AEVA project possibly, though I'm considering other possibilities and how to balance the dice invested in the station bay and the shuttle yard. Even in best-case scenarios, it's fairly unlikely that we complete both projects in 2062Q1; if we're accepting the loss of an Orbital die to boot up the AEVA, the best thing to do might be to balance the dice such that both projects get at least a minimal chance of completion, so that we can be assured of finishing both with only 1-2 dice each next turn in 2062Q2.

With that said, my standing difference from your approach is that I think you're overinvesting in expensive per-die Military and Heavy Industry projects. Improved Fusion is important but I question the urgency, and if it were me, at a minimum I'd swap Microfusion Cell and the New Sevastopol plant out to free up R for something else. Part of the advantage of this is that it lets me invest more heavily in Red Zone mining operations, which are I'm projecting to be a bit more cost-effective than their vein mining counterparts for now.

This is a legitimate reason to disagree with me, to be clear; I'm just discussing the differences of opinion. There are valid reasons to want to push at least Improved Fusion and New Sevastopol, after all, and valid reasons to want to balance our border offensive and vein mining modes of resource extraction.

Alright, on my phone so I won't pull this apart into separate quotes to address each topic, and will respond by paragraph:

1. We can definitely balance the dice to allow us about a 50% chance of finishing both the Bay and the Leo 2 factory by taking the last die off of Cleanup and putting it on the factory - our dice bonuses alone push the Station Bay to within 100 progress of finishing, and merely average rolls should either finish it or get us within omake distance - 3 dice on Leo 2 would get us to within ~160 progress of finishing, where, again, average rolls would get us close to finishing or finished, with or without omake.

I'm perfectly willing to do that. I think it's probably a good course of action, even, so long as we finish off Orbital Cleanup next quarter.

2. I want to do New Sevastopol (or any other ZA Factory, really, not miffed on where) to keep our ZOCOM people happy while they venture forth to deliver the good news to the Red Zones and Ground Forces gets trained to use their armor (and more of them getting trained). Microfusion is something that directly affects the next generation of Zone Armor and weapons by acting as a power source. I want to give it a shot and let it start getting developed and matured. It's also 1 dice of average cost.

3. I'm actually thinking of moving a dice from vein mines to the Deep Red Zone mine to autocomplete 1 stage on bonuses and almost certainly finish off a 2nd.
 
+Logistics in and of itself is not enough. We will need specific Logistics projects for specific actions.
Yeah, so let's think about the narrative.

The narrative is "GDI doesn't have rail lines in this particular location, which will logically make it harder to do a border offensive." I am acknowledging this.

Now, you stop here and say "therefore, we must hurry up and build this specific railroad, or we cannot do this border offensive at all, and if you disagree with me, it means you are ignoring the narrative."

There's the problem.

Because follow the implications of the narrative.

What does GDI do if there's no rail line from Point A to Point B a few hundred kilometers away? Break down and cry? No, they do not. They either build the railroad, or they use other means of transit to get there.

"Other means of transit" is in this case simple. GDI has great supplies of trucks and VTOL aircraft, and can support extensive industrial projects using those fleets of vehicles. It's not ideal, but it's a thing that can be done. This would be reflected, mechanically, by greater Logistics costs associated with the project. We've seen this before, with the glacier mines around Mecca-Medina-Jeddah, which only cost us -2 or -3 Logistics each instead of the usual -5, because having huge refineries so close by meant we could simplify the supply problems. In this case, the supply problems would get harder instead of easier, but GDI has the capacity to solve such problems.

Alternatively, they might just build the specific rail lines they need. A major project like a stage of tiberium harvesting or the creation of new mega-factories inevitably involves investment in infrastructure, even if not on the same scale as the dedicated infrastructure projects. When we built Nuuk, there were no railroads leading conveniently right up to the doors of the factory; we built facilities to support the factory's operations. Likewise we've built ports and railroads around Mecca-Medina-Jeddah to support tiberium transport, even in the absence of major rail construction phases. This would be reflected in the project costing more Progress to complete, or otherwise being more difficult, but still achievable.

I simply do not find it credible that we will slam into a "surprise, no go, you can't do this at all even at slightly increased expense because you didn't build a worldwide railroad expansion to support a localized operation's needs."

Alright, on my phone so I won't pull this apart into separate quotes to address each topic, and will respond by paragraph:

1. We can definitely balance the dice to allow us about a 50% chance of finishing both the Bay and the Leo 2 factory by taking the last die off of Cleanup and putting it on the factory - our dice bonuses alone push the Station Bay to within 100 progress of finishing, and merely average rolls should either finish it or get us within omake distance - 3 dice on Leo 2 would get us to within ~160 progress of finishing, where, again, average rolls would get us close to finishing or finished, with or without omake.

I'm perfectly willing to do that. I think it's probably a good course of action, even, so long as we finish off Orbital Cleanup next quarter.
Ehh, let's just say I'm thinking pretty hard about exact dice breakdown. It's complicated what to roll on each. Not an issue where I'm going to be pressing people with different opinions.
 
Yeah, so let's think about the narrative.

The narrative is "GDI doesn't have rail lines in this particular location, which will logically make it harder to do a border offensive." I am acknowledging this.

Now, you stop here and say "therefore, we must hurry up and build this specific railroad, or we cannot do this border offensive at all, and if you disagree with me, it means you are ignoring the narrative."

There's the problem.

Because follow the implications of the narrative.

What does GDI do if there's no rail line from Point A to Point B a few hundred kilometers away? Break down and cry? No, they do not. They either build the railroad, or they use other means of transit to get there.

"Other means of transit" is in this case simple. GDI has great supplies of trucks and VTOL aircraft, and can support extensive industrial projects using those fleets of vehicles. It's not ideal, but it's a thing that can be done. This would be reflected, mechanically, by greater Logistics costs associated with the project. We've seen this before, with the glacier mines around Mecca-Medina-Jeddah, which only cost us -2 or -3 Logistics each instead of the usual -5, because having huge refineries so close by meant we could simplify the supply problems. In this case, the supply problems would get harder instead of easier, but GDI has the capacity to solve such problems.

Alternatively, they might just build the specific rail lines they need. A major project like a stage of tiberium harvesting or the creation of new mega-factories inevitably involves investment in infrastructure, even if not on the same scale as the dedicated infrastructure projects. When we built Nuuk, there were no railroads leading conveniently right up to the doors of the factory; we built facilities to support the factory's operations. Likewise we've built ports and railroads around Mecca-Medina-Jeddah to support tiberium transport, even in the absence of major rail construction phases. This would be reflected in the project costing more Progress to complete, or otherwise being more difficult, but still achievable.

I simply do not find it credible that we will slam into a "surprise, no go, you can't do this at all even at slightly increased expense because you didn't build a worldwide railroad expansion to support a localized operation's needs."

Simon...did you read what you wrote. Let me remind you what supplying logistics trough supply trucks and VTOLs looks like:

[-] Tiberium Glacier Mining (Stage 13)
There are currently no open glacier faces for expansion of mining activity.
(Progress 38/205: 30 resources per die) (-5 Logistics, +1 Energy) (additional income trickle [45-65 Resources]) (1 point of Red Zone Mitigation) (0 Stages available)

We get a Glacier action instead of a Super Glacier action. That is my argument. If I've left an impression or even just outright said that the Border Offensives won't work without the rail lines that is my fuck up. Sorry my bad.

It's the Super Glaciers that can't be done without having our railroad network being able to connect to them.
 
the New Sevastopol plant out to free up R for something else.
But why would that make sense? We should be keeping up some kind of tempo on ZA factories, because we need to both fill the holes in our coverage and expand so that we can continue covering all these new Red Zone mining projects. Like, you argue trading out New Sevastopol and Microfusion can free up more space for glacier mines, but we need ZOCOM freed up to provide backup for those operations, and the longer it takes to deploy Ground Forces their Zone Armour the longer elements of ZOCOM have to deal with splitting their focus. The more Zone Armour factories we can bring online quickly, the sooner ZOCOM can trade off lower-priority missions with Ground Forces and consolidate their higher-priority ones, so we're less likely to run into a sudden crunch of them saying they cannot sustain the operations we need them to. Now yes, we should have the first Ground Forces ZA groups coming out of New York by the end of this turn (assuming a six month period for construction and training), but the next won't be coming for a while - the London facility may start contributing the quarter after New York per its completing, or it may well take another quarter due to the Nat 1; I want to keep the delay on the next wave at no more than a quarter if at all possible, and a 47 percent chance gives us a coinflip chance of no delay at all.
 
Balanced strategies are not automatically bad, y'know?

Hm. Hmmmmmmmm.

You are correct in that most of the cost of the RZ Harvesting and Glacier Mines combo is once we exceed the logistics given by Shuttles and Urban Metros. It is when we start having to build multiple Rail Lines to support it. Indeed part of the whole reason that combo is viable at all is our current Logistics Surplus. Without it, the cost balloons enormously. However it is possible to potentially save some dice if we keep the numbers of Glacier Mines low. To that end are four sets of the Combo of Combos strategy one for 0, 1, 2, and 3 Glacier Mines respectively. All of them still assume we finish the Border Offensives, Deep Glacier Mines, and RZ Containment projects and therefore we need 14 additional RZ Mitigation and 730 RpT.

Combo of Combos Strategy:
0 Glacier Mines:
-Red Zone Harvesting Stage 12: 29/150 Progress ~1 Die median
--Provides 1 Energy
--Provides 1 RZ Mitigation
--Provides ~17.5 RpT

-RZ MARV Hub x3: 0/1005 Progress ~12 Dice median
--Provides 3 Energy
--Provides 9 RZ Mitigation
--Provides 75 RpT

-RZ Inhibitor x2: 0/240 Progress ~3 Die median
--Provides 4 RZ Mitigation

-Tiberium Vein Mines Phase 2-21: 5/3900 Progress ~42 Dice median
--Requires 20 Capital Goods
--Provides 650 RpT
--Provides 20 YZ Mitigation

-Total 0 Glacier Mine:
--Requires ~58 Dice median
--Provides 4 Energy
--Provides 14 RZ Mitigation
--Provides 20 YZ Mitigation
--Requires 20 Capital Goods
--Provides 742.5 RpT

1 Glacier Mine:
-Red Zone Harvesting Stage 12-13: 29/300 Progress ~3 Dice median
--Provides 2 Energy
--Provides 2 RZ Mitigation
--Provides ~35 RpT

-Red Zone Glacier Mines Stage 13: 38/205 Progress ~2 Dice median
--Provides 1 Energy
--Provides 1 RZ Mitigation
--Provides ~55 RpT
--Requires 5 Logistics

-Suborbital Shuttle Service Phase 2: 22/250 Progress ~3 Dice median
--Provides 5 Logistics

-RZ MARV Hub x3: 0/1005 Progress ~12 Dice median
--Provides 3 Energy
--Provides 9 RZ Mitigation
--Provides 75 RpT

-RZ Inhibitor x1: 0/120 Progress ~1 Die median
--Provides 2 RZ Mitigation

-Tiberium Vein Mines Phase 2-19: 5/3510 Progress ~38 Dice median
--Requires 18 Capital Goods
--Provides 585 RpT
--Provides 18 YZ Mitigation

-Total 1 Glacier Mine:
--Requires ~59 Dice median
--Provides 6 Energy
--Provides 14 RZ Mitigation
--Provides 18 YZ Mitigation
--Requires 18 Capital Goods
--Provides 750 RpT

2 Glacier Mines:
-Red Zone Harvesting Stage 12-14: 29/450 Progress ~5 Dice median
--Provides 3 Energy
--Provides 3 RZ Mitigation
--Provides ~52.5 RpT

-Red Zone Glacier Mines Stage 13-14: 38/410 Progress ~4 Dice median
--Provides 2 Energy
--Provides 2 RZ Mitigation
--Provides ~110 RpT
--Requires 10 Logistics

-Suborbital Shuttle Service Phase 2-3: 22/450 Progress ~5 Dice median
--Provides 13 Logistics

-RZ MARV Hub x3: 0/1005 Progress ~12 Dice median
--Provides 3 Energy
--Provides 9 RZ Mitigation
--Provides 75 RpT

-Tiberium Vein Mines Phase 2-17: 5/3510 Progress ~33 Dice median
--Requires 16 Capital Goods
--Provides 520 RpT
--Provides 16 YZ Mitigation

-Total 2 Glacier Mines:
--Requires ~59 Dice median
--Provides 8 Energy
--Provides 14 RZ Mitigation
--Provides 16 YZ Mitigation
--Requires 16 Capital Goods
--Provides 757.5 RpT

3 Glacier Mines:
-Red Zone Harvesting Stage 12-15: 29/600 Progress ~6 Dice median
--Provides 4 Energy
--Provides 4 RZ Mitigation
--Provides ~70 RpT

-Red Zone Glacier Mines Stage 13-15: 38/615 Progress ~6 Dice median
--Provides 3 Energy
--Provides 3 RZ Mitigation
--Provides ~165 RpT
--Requires 15 Logistics

-Suborbital Shuttle Service Phase 2-3: 22/450 Progress ~5 Dice median
--Provides 13 Logistics

-Urban Metros Phase 4: 0/150 Progress ~2 Dice median
--Requires 2 Energy
--Provides 3 Logistics

-RZ MARV Hub x2: 0/670 Progress ~7 Dice median
--Provides 2 Energy
--Provides 6 RZ Mitigation
--Provides 50 RpT

-RZ Inhibitor x1: 0/120 Progress ~1 Die median
--Provides 2 RZ Mitigation

-Tiberium Vein Mines Phase 2-15: 5/2730 Progress ~29 Dice median
--Requires 14 Capital Goods
--Provides 455 RpT
--Provides 14 YZ Mitigation

-Total 3 Glacier Mines:
--Requires ~58 Dice median
--Provides 7 Energy
--Provides 15 RZ Mitigation
--Provides 14 YZ Mitigation
--Requires 14 Capital Goods
--Provides 740 RpT

Summary Table:
RZ Harvesting and Glacier MinesMARVs, Inhibitors, and Vein MinesCombo of Combos 0 Glacier MinesCombo of Combos 1 Glacier MineCombo of Combos 2 Glacier MinesCombo of Combos 3 Glacier Mines
Dice Cost61 Dice59 Dice58 Dice59 Dice59 Dice58 Dice
Income742.5 RpT750 RpT742.5 RpT750 RpT757.5 RpT740 RpT
RZ Mitigation21 RZ Mitigation14 RZ Mitigation14 RZ Mitigation14 RZ Mitigation14 RZ Mitigation15 RZ Mitigation
YZ Mitigation20 YZ Mitigation20 YZ Mitigation18 YZ Mitigation16 YZ Mitigation14 YZ Mitigation
Energy19 Energy4 Energy4 Energy6 Energy8 Energy7 Energy
Logistics-20 Logistics
Capital Goods-20 Capital Goods-20 Capital Goods-18 Capital Goods-16 Capital Goods-14 Capital Goods

This is assuming we aren't using our existing Logistics surplus for the Glacier Mines. If we were willing to expend 5, 10, and 15 Logistics respectively, for the latter three strategies, that would save 3, 5, and 7 dice respectively.
 
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